Rallying call for all interested: Colonisation of the Moon mod!

[Belizan]

So, most of what I said before is still true. Food on regular tiles is not too bad, still too generous, IMO, but with specialists there isn't really much point to fixing it. The bonus resources give out crazy food, though. Also, why do glasshouses gain food when He3 goes, but none of the other food improvements? That's just silly (and something that always bothered me in vanilla civ).

Ok, let's see.. some bugs...

Skiffs can not enter "oceans". Also they can only be built in ports. Both of those should go away.

Rocket & Laser infantry are still nigh identical, and both start with combat 1 for no clear reason (to me 8).

Radio Car, Lunar Rover, Lunar Scout all still have 100% vs. Animals

Lunar Rover, Colonists (really silly since they have no strength) start with Combat 1

Air Purification Tech does nothing

Low-G Construction is next to useless..

Lunar Scouts can capture cities... still (and probably pillage too)

Finally, Mathewv's TechChooser mods cause Python errors on my machine. The Tech Splash comes up fine, but the big tech tree one always gives me errors.


I was thinking to Low-G Construction we could give a modest improvement worker rate gain.

 

[Belizan]

So I was reading over the Bible, in particular the section on Leadership traits (not the super-traits that I already implemented, but the usual pair per leader traits). I'm pretty sure we haven't implemented these. Did we want to make them line up with the Bible? Also, some of these are pretty imbalanced. Industrious? +1 hammer in squares with 2 and +50% great engineer rate? Sheesh. Also the Organized power of 3 moves on roads for units might cause trouble with other techs down the line. Anyway, I can implement these if we want them (although that Diplomatic one I might leave for later because.. phew.. there's a whole mess of code I have not even begun to look at), but we might want to discuss them a bit first.

Also from the Bible, there is a Fortress improvement that is supposed to exert ZoC. I have a model for ZoC in Civ4, so I can put this in without too much difficulty, but I would like to know that we still want it, and what rules you'd like to put on it, as units don't really move so fast at the moment that zoc is much of an issue. Mine is based on medieval units, so it requires a unit garrisoned (fortified) in the tower, if the unit is infantry, zoc is radius 1 +1 mp. Cavalry it's radius 2, +2, +1 mp (concentric rings). Although I've been thinking of making it a fat plus instead of a full two rings. No display effects though.

Finally, I started to cross-check the civics against the Bible, and.. well, I'm sure you know they are pretty different (same names though). Do we want to grow from where we are, or should I start retrofitting them?

On a separate note, whoever is currently steering our design, I need a list of units considered non-military. Right now I have engineers and colonists 8).

 

[JBG]

I altered the values for some of the civics and leadership traits to be more easily doable - simply for want of a quiet life. I made the mistake of writing the Bible before I fully understood the limitations of the XMLs, so much of what I suggested ended up being hopelessly complex to try and do. I'm happy with their effects atm, unless there are any balancing issues that need correcting. I would consider what is detailed in the bible obsolete - it was only meant as a general guide to whoever it was that ended up doing the civics and traits - and since I ended up helping on both, it really didn't matter. Seriously - they aren't broken or corrupt, so IMHO we'd do better not fixing them.

Ultimately I'd like to go through the civics and add some diversity, but we should leave that to the beta for now. The traits are all fine.

As for the fortress, yes - go go go! It'd be great to have a proper fortress back again.

Colonists, Engineers, Lunar Rovers, Lunar Scouts are non-military (not intended for combat).

What I *would* like to do is go through all the parts of the Leaderheads XML which dictate how the AI behaves, and make them all more appropriate to the civ and leader in question. Also, at some point, I'd like to give civs Unique Units and second leaders where appropriate.

Also, I'm reasonably confident that it's possible to define multiple favourite civics for a leader - if we can do this reasonably easily, it'd be very useful as it could help us further differentiate the civs.

I think that before we get mired down on new releases we should publish v.0.15A. It works, it's smooth, and it's fun. Moreover, there are no bugs.

But we need a way to upload it without it corrupting. Once we have a useable answer to the above question which won't delete it after 7 days, we can post it.

Bear in mind that this is my last full day before I go to france, so we really need to make these decisions now.

 

[woodelf]

I was thinking about this, and we can do a work around, actually that is quite clever, if I do say so myself 8).

Take out the double knock and put it all on isolation. Then, based on player difficulty level, we give the AI a grace period during which we give him extra food programmatically. The AI won't realize that it's getting extra food though, so it will work hard to update it's improvements. Sort of post-dating his preparations. I think it's great 8). Give him maybe.. 5 turns per difficulty level over Chieftain. We could make it generalized, so that other Players would get a grace period too, in the case of a MP game with varying difficulty levels.

This is kind of what I envisioned originally, but without knowing what Python could do I simply brute forced it in XML. If you can code this up I'm all for a more realistic complete cut-off at Isolation. No more food for Oil, er Energy....

 

[woodelf]

Rocket & Laser infantry are still nigh identical, and both start with combat 1 for no clear reason (to me 8).

Air Purification Tech does nothing

Low-G Construction is next to useless..

I was thinking to Low-G Construction we could give a modest improvement worker rate gain.

I think Rocket Troopers and Laser Infantry better be different now....I made the laser guys cheaper, but they require a resource.

Air Purification needs something, whether it be building or health or anything. Same with any tech that's useless, they're placeholders either to be changed or have something attached to.

About Low-G Construction, fine by me. Maybe set engineers back a bit in workrate and then bump them back up? Also, I'm not sure when Military Engineers are/or should be made available. They could come with a later tech as well.

 

[JBG]

Does anyone know of a suitable uploading site that I can upload v.0.15A to without it deleting it within 7 days? The moment I have an answer I'll post the new thread!

 

[woodelf]

I think that before we get mired down on new releases we should publish v.0.15A. It works, it's smooth, and it's fun. Moreover, there are no bugs.

But we need a way to upload it without it corrupting. Once we have a useable answer to the above question which won't delete it after 7 days, we can post it.

Bear in mind that this is my last full day before I go to france, so we really need to make these decisions now.

Other than Filegone, where else can it go? Not here? I thought you could put it on civfanatics. Anyone know of a friend willing to host?

 

[woodelf]

Does anyone know of a suitable uploading site that I can upload v.0.15A to without it deleting it within 7 days? The moment I have an answer I'll post the new thread!

How much do you have to "pay" to use Filefront or sites like that? I'm kind of web noob when it comes to that stuff....

 

[woodelf]

JBG - check the modpack thread for my idea. Oh hell, I'll post it again..

Split the download up into Song of the Moon/Assets/Art and Song of the Moon/Assets/everything else. You could even have an Art folder in the second, but leave it blank. We'll also be able to do patches this way so we don't always have to re-upload the entire mod with each fix/tweak/new version.

Will it work?

 

[JBG]

Don't worry, my friend.

Keep your eyes on the modpacks forum. The Song of the Moon is touching down in a Mare near you!

 

[woodelf]

After last time's fiasco, I'd be hard-pressed not to worry! But I have faith that our delays have given us ample time to test this version out.

 

[JBG]

Here's the URL of the new thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=160498

 

[Belizan]

So I have the master now, apparently, according to Matthewv. How should I get it over to you?

 

[woodelf]

hmm, I wonder what happens when you reference "ART_DEF_BUILDING_GREAT_LIBRARY" in the building info XML file when there is no "ART_DEF_BUILDING_GREAT_LIBRARY" in the builing art defines XML file? Try it and see

I'll try that and I was also thinking that maybe I have the Wonder giving a free building before the building is available in the tech tree. I did this just to test it, but maybe I should put Mushroom Farm to tech NONE and see what happens as well.

 

[woodelf]

So I have the master now, apparently, according to Matthewv. How should I get it over to you?

Master what and who are getting it to? JBG, I assume.

 

[Belizan]

So, been doing some more playing. Let's see. Oh, yeah the laser inf is cheaper then the rocket inf, but not by much.

We need to review our unit upgrades. Lunar Marines to Snipers?

He3 Exchange was setup with it's commerce bonus set as "obsolete safe". Which sort of defeats the whole purpose, doesn't it?

We have removed the Academy from the GP Scientist--We should move up revamping the specialists to the top section of our list, they are pretty important.

Era names still haven't been changed.

Isolation should start Era 2, and perhaps should be the name of Era 2.

Can't place Radar Towers on Craters? Why? They are the closest thing we have to hills...

Which brings up another question.. No Hills?? Are there no hills on the moon? 8).

Can't mine craters either.

This was in my notes before Woodelf's post, so it's a case of soft minds and all, but.. Military Engineers are in a strange place--All the special things he can build require era 2 techs, but he's early era 1. Personally, I think the fix is to move some of his things up to Era 1. Although if we move forward with the divergent tech trees line of reasoning, that will get all the more confused. Personally I think we should work out one decent tech tree first.

I've noticed even in era 2, all the money buildings seem to be flat bonus.

@JBG Civics & Traits
Well, I know a lot more about how to mod the engine now then I did when we started. There are not really any trait abilities that I would say are impossible to do. The only one that's even difficult is the Diplomatic power (because I haven't read through the diplomatic code). As for the civics, I think the current batch of civics need serious retooling. Most of them are pretty weak. I find I only use a few, and stick with them forever. Also, we desparately need a downside for Genetic Screening. The AI just sits on it forever now (once it gets access). And for that matter, I should too... Hrmm..

I think we need to up the speed of our units, particularly the vehicles in the 2nd era. Skimmers (what I think skiffs should be called) should move 4. Also, radar towers and forts should be buildable at the start, really, just weaker versions which can be upgraded later.

I've already mentioned my food improvements as upgradables idea. There is still a ton of food on the map. And production and trade in era 2. Refineries and Custom Towers? Craziness 8).

Mmm, I had some other ideas, but I didn't write them down, so I've forgotten them. So I guess I'll post 'em later. Also, I think I may write up my "Lunacy" ideas and post them too, just so you all can see why I keep saying crazy things 8).

 

[woodelf]

Keep the ideas coming Belizan. When a lot of the XMl was set up it wasn't done with balance in mind, just getting the mod running. I definitely need this type of feedback to go in and change stuff since I've become almost numb to what needs fixing past 50 turns since I never seem to play very long before I restart a new game with a new fix in place.

The unit upgrades are fishy, but again I simply progressed to the next unit. I think at times some units either shouldn't upgrade or they may have to wait a few new units before something appropriate comes along.

Mining craters.....we had decided only to be able to mine resources, but I can see why craters should be minable. I did finally make it so resources show up on crater rims! But then again, if we cut back on food how many city tiles will we be working anyhow that we need mines on non-resource bearing craters?

Keep it coming!

edit - About Isolation, I thought I set it up to start era 2, but somehow the "next" tech does.....

I can easily put in new text names for the Eras. What should they be?

Colonization
Isolation
???
???

 

[JBG]

I think I may write up my "Lunacy" ideas and post them too, just so you all can see why I keep saying crazy things 8).

Ooo. Clever.

I agree that we should be able to mine craters, and I also agree we should concentrate on great people.

Why did we remove Great Scientist academies?

If you like I can review the Great People so we know what needs doing. I can summarise them, their requirements and their effects, and we can go from there.

Heck, I'll do it now:

Great Scientist - same as in regular civ
Great Engineer - same as in regular civ
Great Merchant - same as in regular civ
Great Artist - same as in regular civ
Great AI - spawned from a computer core, resident AI, &c. Can enter a city as a super-specialist (giving big science and commerce bonuses) or can become a Resident Great AI (think academy) that grants incresed defence bonuses, increased protection from spies, reduces maintenance and helps the city expand
Great General - spawned from a victorious unit; can enter a city as a super-specialist (giving XP to new units of a certain type) or build an academy (which increases defence and XP of new units). Can also fortify a colony, providing a massive defensive bonus and a much smaller XP bonus
Great Statesman - spawned from certain wonders?? More tentative than General/AI. Grants a free civic if used. Don't know about other effects.

By the same token, we should be able to have regular Scientist, Artist, Merchant, Engineer, AI and General specialists. AI Specialists are only granted via certain buildings and regular citizens cannot be converted into AIs. Say, for example, the Computer Core gives a free AI specialist, and the Resident AI building gives another. The surveillance centre could give another, for example.

General specialists could be granted by big military improvements.

Statesmen specialists could be granted by other wonders and improvements, and could reduce maintenance and war weariness. Perhaps.

Is all this acceptable?

EDIT:
At one point I suggested the ability to build regular trade units (such as a Convoy, for example) as well as having Great Merchants - sort of like the old caravan units from Civ II. If we could bring those back it'd be BRILLIANT!

 

[woodelf]

There was a Caravan mod a couple of months ago, but I don't know if he ever got it completely working.

I'm fine with anything anyone else says about Great People. Just tell me who they are so we can add modifiers into the buildings.

 

[Belizan]

Great Generals and Great AI are already in the game (I imp'd them a while ago) although at current, i don't think there is anyway to get a Great AI. Great Generals on the other hand show and work fine, although their uses are limited atm.

I more meant regular specialists we need, as they've all been removed, more or less. You start with a civic to give one free specialist, but all you can take is a citizen! Wack!

I have no idea what "getting a free civic" means for the Great Statesman.

Caravans are easy to bring back, someone already made a modpack out of it, and I have it around. I'll put it into 0.16. Now, for 0.151A, how should I get it to you, JBG? I'm not staying up all that much longer. Shall we give filegone a shot again? See if it was just matthewv having that trouble?

P.S. Although the exact modifiers for the Great AI & General's buildings/effects were only generally stated, so someone should go in and balance them.