Random events on or off?

Regardless, the trick to mitigating Bermuda is not to have your entire fleet in one stack.

Yes, let's play badly and/or add TREMENDOUS micro tedium on purpose gogogogo! It's a good way to lose ships in the 99% of games you don't get this trash event, but I guess we didn't consider that one? Cmon, ADAPT to the enemy battleships/subs picking off your ships! Do it!

Anti-strategy is a legit point: the premise of that argument is that there are very low-odds events that SEVERELY punish good play while rewarding awful play. The happen infrequently enough that casino house odds are better, and only idiots would do something suboptimal because they "might happen"...but nevertheless when they do happen they're devastating. The argument is that such a situation is, in fact, bad for strategy. Hasn't been refuted yet. Probably never will be.

While I agree that certain events are over the top, the amount of whining and sheer aggro towards those with a differing opinion or even people who innocently bring it up, even obliquely, is a bit off.

A thread was made asking about the merits of events. Is it off to point out their flaws, or it is off to criticize people for being on topic?

Who is to dictate which is the right way to play the game?

Nobody in a casual setting. In a competitive setting, it is the people running the competition.

You don't have to jump on every person who talks about events and insinuate that the guy is a clueless, non-strategic idiot just because he either plays with events on or likes events.

When did this happen again?
 
Most random events have little impact on the game, except for uprisings. At least they're not as useless as quests.

The only competitive games are multiplayer, hall of fame, and whatever you call signed up games. So maybe we should have events on for all other games?

I would probably keep events on for all games except serious deity games, but the forum complains so much if you have events/non-normal speed saves.
 
The only competitive games are multiplayer, hall of fame, and whatever you call signed up games. So maybe we should have events on for all other games?

"For all other games" people should play what they prefer.

I always advocated them off in forum games where people play the same start because they convolute the picture a bit (occasionally a lot but not often).

Note that in HoF the fact that they're optional essentially makes them mandatory; this is the format where they frustrate me the most because they're the MOST devoid of strategy! In HoF, the event "strategy" is to play more games until the events favor you. Real fun concept :sad:.

I still see people posting non-normal speed games by the way. Madscientist, a deity game, and a few immortal games IIRC are on marathon. The "club" series games generally gave an option to change speeds although for IU these days someone would probably have to WB edit that themselves (that was not the case when I hosted them)...same for events.

Huts are another animal entirely...but the HoF domination winning submission where he "hutted" HBR by/before t20 should be plenty of evidence against them in competitive settings :p.
 
I think if you are going for score or playing in some type of competition then random events and barbarians should be turned off because they add randomness to the game. Could you imagine if all competitions had a random factor?- like what if, before the hurtles event in the olympics, each runner would roll two six sideds and whoever got snake eyes had to jump another hurtle and whoever rolled box cars got to jump one less hurle? No one would consider the winner the fastest anymore unless nobody rolled 1-1 or 6-6.

Anyway, I play because I like feeling like I am in control of a nation so I turn everything on and play with 18 civs on a terra map- that makes for a lot of randomness
 
Yes, let's play badly and/or add TREMENDOUS micro tedium on purpose gogogogo! It's a good way to lose ships in the 99% of games you don't get this trash event, but I guess we didn't consider that one? Cmon, ADAPT to the enemy battleships/subs picking off your ships! Do it!

If you don't know how to build a layered scouting screen with invisible units, you deserve to lose the game.

As for the rest, you can claim victory all you want. Doesn't mean you win or are even right. You want to rant and scream about how other people play the game, be my guest. I just think it is arrogant and self-defeating.
 
As for the rest, you can claim victory all you want. Doesn't mean you win or are even right. You want to rant and scream about how other people play the game, be my guest. I just think it is arrogant and self-defeating.

I'm curious where in the thread this actually happened? You've claimed it's happened multiple times, despite that it hasn't, and are constantly using it as a basis for attacking me, rather than my arguments. That is not an effective technique in any debate. Maybe you should name-call posters less? Despite what you claim, you're the only person on this thread that has done it.

If you don't know how to build a layered scouting screen with invisible units, you deserve to lose the game.

Scouting screen my foot. You have to stack up just to get near the cities, else destros/battleships (which you know are there without any need for scouting through simple airship abuse, espionage, whatever) just attack when ships are separate.

You can sugar coat the mechanic any way you want, but it doesn't change the reality that the event adds at minimum tremendous unnecessary micro tedium (derp! Let's pull in-game features we designed by making them unusable! Well, that DOES sound like the firaxian way...) and at worst can ruin games.

By the way, how does one go about convincing the AI to moves its units to avoid this threat?

As for the rest, you can claim victory all you want.

Why, thanks for the permission. Any thoughts on the low-odds high devastation vs high-odds/planned contingencies argument, or do you concede that for COMPETITIVE settings, too many events fall into the former?

If not, it COMPLETELY DESTROYS the "unplanned contingencies is part of strategy" defense for competitive settings. Would you buy life insurance for $100000000000? Would you walk to work 2 hours every day because someone might hit you if you are driving? Would you, as the leader of a small company, take insurance specifically for a meteor hitting your only assets? These things are ridiculous and indicative of awful decision making, much like "planning" for some of the events in civ IV. Maybe people like this stuff, but in a competitive game it has no place (why do you insist on making my argument something it isn't and taking it to casual games? If you want to take it to casual games, you have no argument against my posts...I don't know how many more times/ways I can say that in casual games any preferred setting is fine).

Keep in mind, my argument for the entirety of this thread against events has been for COMPETITIVE settings, meaning the assertion that I am calling people anything for merely preferring events is baseless (and yet it keeps getting repeated...). I HAVE, however, called out some of the more ridiculous and unsupported arguments, such as "events usually balance out".

Maybe it IS arrogant to expect, in a civilized discussion, that the other person present an actual argument and not make up "facts" or assert things that aren't even possible. Then again, who's to judge anybody's posting styles, right? I'm seeing an awfully keen interest taken to my arguments, for all the wrong reasons. What I want to see as a poster here are legit attempts to refute my claims, not statements that a) quote me but proceed to address something different than what I said b) ignore the topic entirely c) call me out as anything (good or bad) beyond the merit of the arguments presented. Such things are sadly lacking.

In other words, I can't possibly win an argument when nobody actually presents one.
 
Most of the events I've come across are pretty mild. The worst I've come across are the slave revolts, which are a minor nuisance. I'm assuming Bermuda Triangle means you lose all units in a single tile? Barb uprisings would be a :mad:. Getting GG'ed by an archer stack would make me rage hard.

It would be nice to know what rewards you get with each quest, so I know if they are worth it or not.
 
The sad part is, you don't actually see how arrogant this sounds...

I'm still waiting for an actual argument such that it's possible to continue the topic of discussion. Asserting that I'm arrogant is relevant...how exactly? I'm curious. Maybe some light can be shed on that one.
 
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for someone to present a credible argument for random events, other then the allready accepted "I think it's fun"-argument.

It simply won't happen.

There is NO argument for leaving random events on, if one wishes to have a genuine honest fight where one can claim victory as a result of accumulation of advantages from sound strategic decisions.
 
I'm still waiting for an actual argument such that it's possible to continue the topic of discussion. Asserting that I'm arrogant is relevant...how exactly? I'm curious. Maybe some light can be shed on that one.

Read my posts again. Carefully this time. My beef with your posts has always been your arrogance, whines and demands that people play to your expectation. It is funny how you forget that in a previous thread, I actually stated:

Random, luck-based events that cause a bit of discomfort or give a small increase here and there (e.g., 1 gold or extra culture for a theatre, or a quest that requires you to expend resources to get a much larger, empire wide bonus) gives the game an added bit of uncertainty and eliminates the feeling of "same old, same old". This is good.

A random event that is an "I win" or a "you lose" button, on the other hand, is not.

It is ridiculous that a singular event can make or break a game. This is a strategy game. Not a Rogue-like.

If you want to play without barbs, events and diplomacy (and yes, human players siding with someone else against you is a form of diplomacy; you just got dogpiled), play chess. It would be more satisfying as it is closer to your expectations.

But please kindly STOP ranting about poor players, irrational players and events. If you don't like playing the game with real people, play SP. Your kind of rants turn people off the game. We want more players of a game we all love, not less. I, in particular, do NOT want this game to turn into some sort of 1337 club of a few sneering, arrogant "pro" players because they hound everyone away from the game. I have seen an entire forum turn into a bargain basement, circle jerking wankfest that turns newbies off a game.

Even in competitive play, we want new blood into the competition. Having the same old people time and again is boring. Newbies counter the natural rate of attrition as well, another benefit that people seem to forget. You want them to stay and get better. Yelling, sneering and putting them down does the exact opposite.

Pull. Your. Head. In.


Please.
 
I agree that a healthy dose of respect for people who play irrational for their own amusement is good.
I have not been around for long enough to determine if TMIT lacks this, or if this is just one of the usual forum misunderstandings.
Pro tip for avoiding misunderstandings and to make communication smoother is to avoid sarcasm and irony at all costs. :P

Personally, my grudge is not against players who prefer random events, but rather against the developers who added this into the game, and then decided to make it the default option to have them activated.

I am still pretty new to civ, and just at the start of my civ-career, I just clicked "Play now" and iirc I had alot of random events. And this really put me of.
I was very reluctant to turning them of before I found this forum and found that it was general practice to leave them of, but since then I have had them of and have had far more enjoyable games since.
 
I agree that a healthy dose of respect for people who play irrational for their own amusement is good.
I have not been around for long enough to determine if TMIT lacks this, or if this is just one of the usual forum misunderstandings.
Pro tip for avoiding misunderstandings and to make communication smoother is to avoid sarcasm and irony at all costs. :P

Personally, my grudge is not against players who prefer random events, but rather against the developers who added this into the game, and then decided to make it the default option to have them activated.

I am still pretty new to civ, and just at the start of my civ-career, I just clicked "Play now" and iirc I had alot of random events. And this really put me of.
I was very reluctant to turning them of before I found this forum and found that it was general practice to leave them of, but since then I have had them of and have had far more enjoyable games since.

The thing is, you tend to remember the bad events and forget the good ones. That is why people keep whining about losing at 99.5% odds. They forget about the other 1000 times that they didn't lose.

I played a few games with events one steroids. All events and quests are enabled for every game. Most events are also turned to recurring. And the chance of events happening is 10% per turn, which means, in a 18 civ game, an average of 1.8 events happen globally every turn.

I have noticed that you tend to get more good events than bad. The weighting of events tends to hold quite well. In one game, I had over two dozen events that increased tile yield. I had also a number of forest fires and mines and forges blowing up. Thing is, I knew those were going to happen sooner or later, given the settings, so I stored gold to mitigate them and capitalise on the good events.

With proper strategies, you can make events work for you. It does require that you don't do things on autopilot because that would be disaster. It also requires that you don't run things so close to the edge that a slight bump will tip you over.

I know that not running close to the edge or not being able to work on autopilot would play havoc with some players with their finely tuned strategies which they cannot deviate from. To me, that defeats the purpose of a game. It is like playing chess with the same opening moves over and over and over again. Boring!

Maybe it is just me. I like a bit of unpredictability in games. I am always the guy with the weird stuff. In Counterstrike, I am the sniper who runs around hunting instead of camping. In Age of Empires, I am the guy coming at you through forests or trying to pull off off-the-wall stunts like playing hit-and-run with trebuchets (the Japanese are very good for this) or running through your entire base with a few horse archers time and again for the laughs.

Regardless, I don't believe events are as bad as people make them out to be. Just get rid of some of the crazier ones. Even Vedic Aryans at Deity/Marathon is not as bad as people make it out to be, unless you set them to recurring. That is bad...
 
The thing is, you tend to remember the bad events and forget the good ones. That is why people keep whining about losing at 99.5% odds. They forget about the other 1000 times that they didn't lose.

This does not address the merits of the theory of events on or off. People do selectively remember bad outcomes, but in the case of events in a competitive setting even good ones can spoil the game between otherwise even players (or close).

I played a few games with events one steroids. All events and quests are enabled for every game. Most events are also turned to recurring. And the chance of events happening is 10% per turn, which means, in a 18 civ game, an average of 1.8 events happen globally every turn.

It's always good to hear people having fun in casual settings, especially if unusual.

I have noticed that you tend to get more good events than bad. The weighting of events tends to hold quite well. In one game, I had over two dozen events that increased tile yield. I had also a number of forest fires and mines and forges blowing up. Thing is, I knew those were going to happen sooner or later, given the settings, so I stored gold to mitigate them and capitalise on the good events.

Most good players store gold anyway. Events that prompt payment or negative effect are only potentially devastating before writing, where binary research is an overtly poor choice. Therein lies the problem however. If I were to control 2 civs and try as hard as I could with each on a mirror map, a side that gets 3 forest fires in the capitol pre-writing and can't whip for a long time is going to fall behind. There's no strategy in that instance, just luck.

With proper strategies, you can make events work for you. It does require that you don't do things on autopilot because that would be disaster. It also requires that you don't run things so close to the edge that a slight bump will tip you over.

There's simply no strategy to prep for loss of buildings w/o gold option (missing key wonder), and not events "canceling". Take another MP game. Player A, B, and C all benefit from slavery so much that even multiple slave revolts > not running slavery. The intelligent thing to do is to run slavery, and all 3 do.

Player A gets 0 slave revolts, player B 3 slave revolts, and player C 1 slave revolt, before 1000 BC. Two of player B's happen before writing.

There's no reconciling that. Even if player A eventually gets 2 revolts 50 turns later, the damage has been done earlier and it had more impact by a lot. Little things like this give a side an advantage over time. Maybe player A and B both opted to go oracle, and player B played better by 3 turns with careful micro only to come out behind due to the revolts. Now player B is behind 500 :commerce: worth early game. Nobody could assert such a game's outcome is dependent on skill or strategy any longer in cases like that.

Against the AI? No biggie. The AI is terrible and people win making mistakes on deity even if culture/space are left on (deity AI have virtually no chance w/o those VC, barring always war). A lot of players who plan micro still dislike them however because they simply force players into making lots of extra calculations.

Maybe it is just me. I like a bit of unpredictability in games. I am always the guy with the weird stuff. In Counterstrike, I am the sniper who runs around hunting instead of camping. In Age of Empires, I am the guy coming at you through forests or trying to pull off off-the-wall stunts like playing hit-and-run with trebuchets (the Japanese are very good for this) or running through your entire base with a few horse archers time and again for the laughs.

There's nothing wrong with this. Depending on the game it might even get you the mighty status of "cherry tapper", which I admire greatly :) (I used the lancer exclusively back in gears of war 1, when it was considered a poor + noob weapon...of course nowadays in gears 3 we have actual weapon balance XD). I don't think you'd pick those options if you truly wanted to beat someone you thought was at your level or better, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun.

That's also why I've kept my arguments against events to being against competitive settings and against the implication that they employ strategy heavily. For the most part, events don't add a whole lot of strategic depth to the game, just a shift in micro tables, adjustment for after you spent the gold, etc. Simply picking the proper tile improvement has more depth...however that doesn't mean events can't be fun. They just shouldn't be in formats like Hall of Fame (No strategy, just keep playing new games until you get good events :sad:), BOTM (one unlucky outcome and you lose to #1 guy), or MP. Unfortunately, those formats often employ them, although BOTM has been good lately and a lot of MP games are sensible enough to disable them. HoF, however, is the format that should absolutely LEAST use events, because allowing them there encourages #games > well played games, and goes directly against the purpose of allowing things like mapfinder, opponent selection, etc which were implemented to allow more skilled players to compete against players with more time.

I think the biggest problem is not with the concept of events but rather the implementation. Firaxis is notoriously bad with expansion features; the code for vassals is a joke (less power can make someone capitulate rather than more power sometimes for example), the AP has been broken in every patch iteration it has existed, etc.
 
I don't think you'd pick those options if you truly wanted to beat someone you thought was at your level or better, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun.

That is where you are wrong. I don't change stuff just to beat someone. I'll beat him with what I have got.

For example, the Counterstrike hunter. I play one on one with it. Why? Because I can. Because it was fun to tap a guy from the ground when he is on the roof of a building across a large square. In mass multiplayer, I play the same guy. More people just means I get 1 shot, 2 kills. I have had players try to mob me when I was hunting, and I just pull out the Desert Eagle secondary weapon and go to town. Thinking ahead and planning can literally save your arse, especially when you are playing lone wolf.

Example 2, the Age of Empires horse archers. I did that on a 4 vs 4 match. On top of the laughs, it kept him busy, paranoid and panicky while I helped my buddies wipe his allies. This was one of the top 10 players in New Zealand at the time (I think he was no 2 at one stage). He was screaming about how I was flooding his base wth Mangs (Mangudais, the Mongol unique unit). That was before I started converting his boats. It was inefficient as heck, but fun.

Still with AoE, I did the Japanese trebuchet trick while playing 3 (2 human, 1 AI) vs 5 AI on the hardest level. Trust me, we weren't playing to lose. I have also done that vs human players. It is amazing how many heavy scorpions you can kill with just trebs when even cavalry die horribly to them (massed heavy scorpions are nasty).

You make assumptions about how things can't be done and things that people won't do. I don't think you've really given it a chance. I believe that you are one of those people who are good at figuring things out, but once you figure it out, you stick to it. You don't really explore or just plain play stupid and see what happens. Caution is good IRL, but even then, being too cautious can be a weakness. In a game, caution is just boring :)
 
You make assumptions about how things can't be done and things that people won't do. I don't think you've really given it a chance. I believe that you are one of those people who are good at figuring things out, but once you figure it out, you stick to it. You don't really explore or just plain play stupid and see what happens. Caution is good IRL, but even then, being too cautious can be a weakness. In a game, caution is just boring

Who is making assumptions about others again?
 
Hmm, I did make an assumption about how one would approach a game if taking it seriously. Oh well.

However...

I believe that you are one of those people who are good at figuring things out, but once you figure it out, you stick to it.

Is based on incomplete information (and isn't true :p) and is therefore an assumption. I don't really need to hear how I (don't) play games and I'm sure the forum doesn't either.

But assumptions are irrelevant here. Are there any comments about the low-occurrence + high impact argument against events in competitive settings, or have we firmly established that events are just for fun?
 
Is based on incomplete information (and isn't true :p) and is therefore an assumption. I don't really need to hear how I (don't) play games and I'm sure the forum doesn't either.
Assumption.

But assumptions are irrelevant here. Are there any comments about the low-occurrence + high impact argument against events in competitive settings, or have we firmly established that events are just for fun?

No. We have established that YOU don't like them. We have also established that I do.

Any thoughts on your part that you have proven anything along the lines of what should or should not be in "competitive" play are merely delusions of graduer. What should or should not be allowed in competitive play is detailed in the rules of said competition. If you don't like those rules, don't compete.

Stop trying to prevent others from competing.
 
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