Rapid Industrialization

Yom said:
Chile came to mind when you offered that method, but I wasn't sure about its efficacy (i.e. I thought it failed). I'll research it further before I make a statement.

How did it fail? Chile is called the "South American Tiger" for a reason.

From the mid 80's to 1997 they had over 8% of real GDP growth a year. That's one of the highest in the world, on pair with China.
Here's the latin-american ranking on per capita income. See how well Chile is doing, and keep in mind that it was dirt poor not so long ago.

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Actually, those are all a little bit higher now. Coincidentally, I was looking up latin American wealth on the Economist yesterday. ;)

Unless you are using some other measure of GDP.
 
Sobieski II said:
Actually, those are all a little bit higher now. Coincidentally, I was looking up latin American wealth on the Economist yesterday. ;)

Unless you are using some other measure of GDP.

Yeah, I'm using numbers from 2001, so we should take into consideration that most of them are a tad higher now(and since Chile is growing faster then others, it is even closer to Argentina).
 
luiz said:
How did it fail?

It didn't. I just said that I wasn't familiar with its success or failure. Since Pinochet wasn't the nicest guy, I thought that it might have failed.
 
It is important to note that the 5 Year Plan would not have been possible without the success of the previous Industrial Revolutions. Even though it was the fastest way to industrialize, its human cost was not worth it.
 
Just curious, how was it not possible without the success of the previous Industrial Revolutions? Which revolutions? Could you or someone else clearify?
 
Cheetah said:
Just curious, how was it not possible without the success of the previous Industrial Revolutions? Which revolutions? Could you or someone else clearify?
Presumably, so Stalin could export things to industrialised nations for foreign currency. I'm assuming he meant other nations' Industrial Revolutions, since Russia didn't have a "revolution" before communism, just a little "pff" and that was it.
 
Sims2789 said:
It is important to note that the 5 Year Plan would not have been possible without the success of the previous Industrial Revolutions. Even though it was the fastest way to industrialize, its human cost was not worth it.
If you mean the industrialization of most of Western Europe, then that point is irrelevant. I'm asking the question mainly because a lot of countries that should have industrialized by now are lagging behind. I'm not sure that the 5 Year Plan wasn't worth the human cost, though. If it had not been achieved, then the U.S.S.R. would have stood little chance against Hitler's armies, meaning that he would have most likely won WWII. Which is better? Approximately 127,000 dead from being overworked, or the Allies having lost WWII, thereby resulting in the death of much more than 127,000.
 
Again, I come to the discussion, offering the simple, obvious, yet over-looked answer:

The best way to industrialize, is the way Britain did it: before anyone else! Be the first to do so! :p
 
The fact that Britain was the first was not necessarily that good for Britain. By 1900, Britain´s industrial base was obsolete compared to the german or american industrial bases.
 
luiz said:
The fact that Britain was the first was not necessarily that good for Britain. By 1900, Britain´s industrial base was obsolete compared to the german or american industrial bases.

But for the entirety of the 19th century, they had their 'day in the sun'. But my point was, that the 'best' way to industrialize, is to beat everyone else to the punch, being the one to lead the way - and try to hold that advantage as long as possible.

But if all else fails, just go ahead and kill tens of millions of people in the gulags, and create ecological disaster areas where people live in poverty and can't support themselves without government aid. 'Great' idea. :rolleyes:
 
PantheraTigris2 said:
...
But if all else fails, just go ahead and kill tens of millions of people in the gulags, and create ecological disaster areas where people live in poverty and can't support themselves without government aid. 'Great' idea. :rolleyes:
When did tens of millions die for industrialization? The purges may have been under Stalin, but there were certainly not an effect or prerequisite for industrialization. As to the ecological disaster areas, what are you talking about (not connotatively insulting, I'm confused as to what you are referring).
 
No one was stopping the British from upgrading their industrial base, except perhaps the colossal waste of resources of the World Wars, and of trying to hold onto empire, so I don't buy the argument that Britain suffered from being the first.
 
Sobieski II said:
No one was stopping the British from upgrading their industrial base, except perhaps the colossal waste of resources of the World Wars, and of trying to hold onto empire, so I don't buy the argument that Britain suffered from being the first.
I merely stated that it is a possibility, not the case.

But I do think that the fact that they were the first made them a bit passive. Since it would take heavy costs to upgrade the industrial base, they simply accepted to remain obselete.

Of course beign the first to industrialise is good, however sometimes human nature turns a good thing to a not so good one. Just like Spain and Portugal could have used the gold of the colonies wiser and invested on manufacturies, but instead they became passive and were satisfied to import everything. So maybe tens of thousands of tons of gold did more harm then good.

Again I'm not saying that this is the case of Britain, but it is interesting to note that before WW1 Britain did not have an industrial edge anymore.
 
In answer to the original question, the 5 year plans were indeed successfull at burgeoning Russia's heavy industry. The five year plans took on the characteristic of minimizing light and medium industrial developement (textiles, tractors, private cars, general household equipment, etc.) and instead, focused on providing the nation with heavy industry output of refined metals, oil, and above all, war machines. Why was this important? Stalin was convinced that the invasion of the Soviet Union was being plotted by the capitalist imperialist powers as a counter-revolutionary measure to the existance of the first (and most powerful) communist state. Indeed at the time, Russia possesed extraordinaly little in the way of military mechanizion and modernization.

An important point that was mentioned was the collectivation of farms. It's important to realize that the famines created were largely due to the innefficient method of farm collectivization. The five year plans' focus on heavy industry did limit agricultural growth because no light industrial production could possibly aid in the mechanization and modernization of agriculture. However, the famines that resulted were major side-effects of neither the prefference for heavy industry, nor the direct acquisition of grain by the state for resale. It was the method of collectivization, which is not a direct consequence of state-industrialization, which was to blame for the innefficient management of farms.

some empirical proof: during world war two, the Russian government was facing a major famine among the peasants and soldiers. Stalin resorted to the only hope available, by instituting private farms. All of a sudden, the Russian government had more food then they could deal with. They reinstituted collective farms some time later and saw a sharp decrease in agricultural production.

Industrialization in this manner often involves robbing the peasantry of profit. However, in the long run, the country acquires a stable industrial power, only then can democracy floruish. Otherwise, people tend to vote for radicals or extremists who promise economic amelioration, but usually tend to pursue an abstract ideological agenda. This is why I disdain the issue of Iraq. For in many ways, Iraq was a well-off progressive industrialist nation. All of its attempts at industrialization were wisely geared towards less dependence on oil. However, because of the profit to be had in oil sale, it could simultaneously provide free social benefits such as health and education (bypassing the need for severly opressive institutions). Unfortuntaly, Saddam Hussein made the strategic miscalculation of attacking a potentially hostile fundamentalist Iran, and embroiled Iraq in a disastrous deciding war. (Another example of why competent leadership plays a strong role in dtermining the success of state industrialization, as leadership is the sole deciding factor).
 
Didn't most African countries try for rapid industrialization and fail, whearas the Ivory Coast took things much slower and (until recently) faired far better?
 
@Avaro: I agree with most of what you said :).

Hygro said:
Didn't most African countries try for rapid industrialization and fail, whearas the Ivory Coast took things much slower and (until recently) faired far better?
It has gone up recently, yes, but that does not mean that slow growth is the only way to go. South Korea, for instance, had a very low GDP in 1960, but in the time period of 1960 to 1991 was able to sustain, on average 7% growth. Taiwan was just behind that. So I wouldn't say that slow growth is the best thing to do. It's much easier to achieve fast growth with a small GDP, which is therefore the goal in most developping countries. Their ultimate end is to catch up with the West, which will not happen with slow GDP growth (obviously, since 2% of $30,000 GDP per capita is much more than 2% of $700 GDP per capita).
 
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