Rate the Beliefs - part II: Founder beliefs

[kaspergm]

Thank you to those who voted in the previous thread about Pantheon beliefs. I know it can be difficult to give an exact assesment of the value of the beliefs, but I really appreciate those who give an approximate value, to get an impression. In this thread, please rate the Founder beliefs.

I'd ask you to put your vote before the name of each belief, like this:
3 - Fertility Rites: 10% faster Growth Rate


Give votes between 0 and 5, where 1 is worst and 5 is best, like this:
5 = Excellent
4 = Very good
3 = Good
2 = Decent
1 = Poor
0 = Bad or Very Bad

When voting, take into account both the strength of the belief and how universal it is in its aplicability. To give an example of this, a belief like Desert Folklore is very strong but also very specific (and therefore not universal), in that if you don't have any Desert near your starting location, it's going to be quite worthless. Also of course, how well it suites your playing style or personal likes or dislikes also should influence your vote. How you weight the different things is subjective obviously. I'll try to make some statistics when people have put in some votes to see how things distribute.

The list of Founder beliefs is here:

Founder Beliefs:
_ - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
_ - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
_ - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
_ - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
_ - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
_ - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
_ - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
_ - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
_ - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

Please place your votes by copying above and putting in votes in place of _

 

[Crafty Bison]

4- Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
4- Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
3- Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
2- Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
1- Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
3- Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
0- Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5- Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
2- World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

Right, the daddy beliefs.
Tithe, Ceremonial burial and Church property are the obvious ones for me.
ID-Can be made to work but you need to expend a lot of effort doing it.
WC-Again, you really have to go after religion to get anything out of this, and if you're going tall for culture it's even tougher.
PP-Might get a little flak for this one, but my personal play style is usually CS heavy and like them better as allies than friends. I also usually ally those closest to me first, and my religion doesn't usually spread fast enough for me to get much real use from this.
Pilgrimage-I already have my religion, thanks.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

+1 +2 Faith for each foreign city following this religion

Maybe that would be better? It's so obviously worse than ceremonial burial/Church Property

 

[Rooftrellen]

4 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
3 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
1 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
3 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
4 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
4 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
0 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
3 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

I will simply never take pilgrimage. It's too little faith when you stop needing it so much. It would need much bigger numbers to make a difference to faith buying GP's, and with a religion founded, it's not as much of a rush to advance it...not that it'll get much if any faith toward that anyway.

Tithe is a perfect fallback option. It is stronger than most others and can work in any situation.

Peace Loving should not be underestimated. It's rare to be at war with lots of people even if you are going for domination, and giving back conquered cities (other than the capital) makes your enemies...tolerate you, and...well, you spread your religion to those cities to get a happiness boost, right?

 

[kaspergm]

My own votes:

3 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
2 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
4 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
2 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
1 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
3 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
0 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
1 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations


Some comments:
- Tithe is just so much better than all the others that I will take it ALWAYS if I get the chance. Tithe is definitely overpowered at the moment imo. Tithe is just hands down better than Church Property, and I generally think that one provides too little gold to really be worth it.
- I think Initiation Rites is better than people give it credit for. It'll give you a lot of money fast - sure, it's not a lasting effect, but the money come in early game where they will actually make quite a significance. Also, you don't need your religion to stay there to harnes the profit, so once you've turned enemy cities once, you don't have to worry about them converting it back, which is a huge plus.
- Pilgrimage is just plain horrible. Even if I don't agree that you don't need faith once you have founded (buildings + units still consume faith, and later GP), this one is just so pitiful in what it offers that it will NEVER be worth it.
- World Church seems to give too little back compared to giving up on some of the other beliefs. Culture is nice, but when it only comes from foreign cities, you are dependant on keeping your religion present there and not being stamped out by their own religion, which makes this one very weak imo.
- Ceremonial Burial is also good, and a decent fall-back if Tithe fails, but I feel that if I get Pagodas and/or Religious Centers, this will generally offer my sufficient happiness, so I'd rather go for the Gold.

 

[Crafty Bison]

kaspergm, from your voting I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on tithe/church prop/initiation rites.

I see it as a scale of small reward now vs big reward later, and unlike most of these instances, I think the big reward later is sufficient to give it the edge, hence why I rated tithe 5, church prop 4, initiation rites 3.

How do you see it?

edit: ignore, guess I glanced over reasons and didn't read properly

 

[Jatta Pake]

Today
-Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion

Post Fall Patch
-Pilgrimage: +2 Faith for each foreign city following this religion

What It Should Be
- Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each follower in a foreign city following this religion

 

[Halcyan2]

Give votes between 0 and 5, where 1 is worst and 5 is best, like this:
5 = Excellent
4 = Very good
3 = Good
2 = Decent
1 = Poor
0 = Bad or Very Bad

Founder Beliefs:
4 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
4 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
4 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
2 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
3 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
1 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
1 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
2 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

 

[adsin15]

I think your rating system should be a bit different. I consider utility to be the most important factor of a belief.

5 should represent an ability that is simply awesome and requires NO specific resources etc. It is active at all times and you would pick this ability immediately, if available, regardless of the VC you are going for.

4 would be a very powerful ability which provides a large bonus but not so large as a 5. It also may requires a specific condition/resource that is not active all the time or that you are not guarunteed to have in every game.

3 this is a great ability but is geared to a specific VC, requires an uncommon resource or is not active at all times. If you are going for that specific VC then you would pick this ability ASAP but otherwise you would skip it.

2 This ability is either requires a rare resource or is only useful in a very limited set of circumstances. You would only pick it if other more desireably abilities were already taken, or if it synergized with another, better ability you have.

1 - This ability is just piss-poor. You would only take it if it was the only choice left and you would be angry about it.

Under my system this is how I rate Founder beliefs:

5 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
4 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
3 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
3 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
2 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
1 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
2 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
3 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

 

[Hyperion529]

5 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
5 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
4 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
1 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
1 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
2 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
0 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
2 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

 

[kaspergm]

I think your rating system should be a bit different. I consider utility to be the most important factor of a belief.

Like I said, there are different factors to take into account, weigh them as you see fit, I would just like a relative assesment of the different beliefs on whatever conditions one uses.

 

[kaspergm]

kaspergm, from your voting I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on tithe/church prop/initiation rites.

I see it as a scale of small reward now vs big reward later, and unlike most of these instances, I think the big reward later is sufficient to give it the edge, hence why I rated tithe 5, church prop 4, initiation rites 3.

How do you see it?

Just to clarify on this point, the reason why I voted Church Prop so low is because I see it as effectively the same as Tithe (they both give long-term yields), it's just (almost) universally worse than Tithe. Initiation Rites at least offers something different, it has the strength that you get the money quickly and early in game (where money is usually more scarce than in late game), and while you need in the end get more from Chruch Property, you need to be the dominant religion in the city for 50+ turns for this to happen, whereas with Initiation Rites you only need to dominate for one turn.

 

[Seabastian Civ]

Founder Beliefs:
5 - Ceremonial Burial: The granddaddy of the warmonger religions.
3 - Church Property: Tithe's jealous little brother.
4 - Initiation Rites: Tithe's older brother who was high school valedictorian, then failed out of college and now smokes meth twice a day.
1 - Interfaith Dialogue: Disappointment central. Maybe I used it wrong, but I was getting like 30 science a pop... when techs cost 3,800.
1 - Papal Primacy: Garbage.
0 - Peace Loving: Why do you need happiness if you're not warmongering? And if you are warring, you're doing it against your neighbors... where your religion has spread...?
0 - Pilgrimage: Worthless
5 - Tithe: Simply the best for a peaceful religion game... second best for a warmonger one.
3 - World Church: Meh.

 

[Gamewizard]

Church property is better early when cities are small. I find tithe and church property to be interchangeable...they are both OP, along with ceremonial burial.

 

[dasnowflake]

wide on small maps

5 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
5 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
4 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion

initiation rites is better for tempo, but if you don't make strong use of it church property is better..

 

[draaibaar]

Anyone who doesn't rate Tithe as 5? Anyone?

 

[kaspergm]

Anyone who doesn't rate Tithe as 5? Anyone?

There was one at the official forum who rated it 4.

 

[StrategyMaster4]

Founder Beliefs:
5 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
3 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
3 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
4 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
1 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
4 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
0 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
3 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
2 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

 

[kaspergm]

Thanx, more votes are still very welcome, also in part I.

 

[SnowKomodo]

4 - Ceremonial Burial: +1 Happiness for each City following Religion
3 - Church Property: +2 Gold for each City following Religion
2 - Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each City first converts to this Religion
1 - Interfaith Dialogue: Gain Science when a Missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
2 - Papal Primacy: +15 to Influence resting point with City-States following this religion
2 - Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this religion in non-enemy foreign cities
0 - Pilgrimage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this religion
5 - Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this religion
3 - World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this religion in other civilizations

Things of note:
Interfaith Dialogue - Usually anything that gives you more science is great regardless of the amount of science but I found this to be lackluster - save your religion founder for money/happiness and you get a better long-term investment. (Also, spreading missionaries is too finicky for my liking.)

Tithe - I'm so cozy with Tithe that I don't even think about not choosing it anymore.

Pilgrimage - Even when the patch comes out I'd argue it should still be a 0, though I won't truly know till I try (no, i pretty much know i'm never going to choose it even if it's the difference between one extra great person)