Rate the Tenets - part III: Order Tenets

[kaspergm]

Level 1
4 - Hero of the People: +25% Great Person generation. More great people is always nice.
5 - Socialist Realism: +2 Local Happiness from each Monument. Build Monuments in half the usual time. One of the, if not the, best happiness policies in the game.
4 - Skyscrapers: Gold cost of purchasing buildings reduced by 33%. Great to get new cities going, particularly if you also have Commerce.
2 - Patriotic War: +15% attack bonus when fighting in friendly territory. Just not worth using a policy point for.
2 - Double Agents: Spies have double the chance to capture an enemy spy attempting to steal a technology. Not very good. Comes too late to be really relevant because mostly you will take other level 1 policies first.
4 - Young Pioneers: +1 Local Happiness per Workshop, Factory and Solar/Nuclear/Hydro Plant. Great synergy with Worker's Faculties. Very nice for wide empires.
2 - Universal Healthcare: +1 Local Happiness from each National Wonder. Just so much worse than the other happiness tenets.

Level 2
3 - Academy of Sciences: +1 Local Happiness per University, Observatory, Public School and Research Lab. I'm giving this a 3 because it's a level 2 tenet and no better than Young Pioners, which is a level 1.
3 - Party Leadership: +1 Culture, Food, Gold, Production and Science per City. I used to really like the +2 bonus that was given in GnK Order, I find this is a bit underwhelming, but I guess as a 3rd choice it's not the worst you can do. Has a good synergy with Resettlement, but with both of these policies being level 2, that doesn't work, so probably one of them should be moved to level 1.
2 - Resettlement: New Cities start with an extra 3 Population. If you want to do a late game expansion it's not too bad, but given that you get new cities that will generate a lot of unhappiness but don't get help to get new buildings up, it's rare that this will be a truely great help, and considered the other choices of level 2 tenets ...
2 - Cultural Revolution: +34% Tourism to other Order Civilizations. Nice passive bonus which will help you occasionally, otherwise skip.
5 - Worker's Faculties: +25% Science output from Cities with a Factory. Build Factories in half the usual time. 25 % science ... really? I will hate the day they nerf it, but let's be real ... they should nerf it.
5 - Five-Year Plan: +2 Production per City. +1 Production per Mine and Quarry. Excellent. Solid production boost which can always be used.

Level 3
3- Dictatorship of the Proletariat: +34% Tourism to Civilizations with less Happiness. Quite good, can be taken late when you've stacked up on happiness tenets and other civs suffer under your ideological pressure.
4 - Iron Curtain: Free Courthouse when capturing a City. +50% Food or Production from domestic trade routes. Excellent when going domination. Instantly annex cities, and spam-build monuments and then production and education buildings to cover the unhappiness.
3 - Spaceflight Pioneers: May finish Spaceship Parts with Great Engineers. A Great Engineer and a Great Scientist appear near the Capital. Good without being great. The free GP are pretty nice when taken very late game.

 

[joncnunn]

Level 1

3 - Academy of Sciences: +1 Local Happiness per University, Observatory, Public School and Research Lab. I'm giving this a 3 because it's a level 2 tenet and no better than Young Pioners, which is a level 1..[/i]

Academy of Science: That is effectively 3 in every city [all but Observatory able to be built everywhere.]

Young Pioneers is much variable:
Hydro requires a river
Only one of Solar & Nuclear in a given city; Solar would require desert; each nuclear one requires Uranium.
You might even run out of Coal for standard factory in all cities.

 

[adwcta]

Double agent needs more love. It reduces the chance you don't know which AI is stealing from you from 23% with a rank 1 defender to 13%. With a rank 2 defender, this goes from 13% base to 0%. At rank 3 spy, you'll go from a 64% kill rate to 94% (rank 3 spies only have a 3% rate of failing to ID, so that's not a problem. Being able to identify the spy leads to a diplo boost with nations who are aggressive toward you (where you need the most diplo boost). It also let's you identify which civs are deceptive toward you, so you can plan accordingly. When you have a science lead in peaceful play, diplo is the most important thing, because you do NOT want to get attacked.

I always get this tennant in peaceful order games where I plan on getting a tech lead. Its just great exp for your spies without losing out on the free diplo. And in end game, you can almost completely prevent key thefts from spaceship/diplo competitors on command. Once you have tech lead, no other SP besides your VC lvl3 tennant is more important.

 

[kaspergm]

Academy of Science: That is effectively 3 in every city [all but Observatory able to be built everywhere.]

Young Pioneers is much variable:
Hydro requires a river
Only one of Solar & Nuclear in a given city; Solar would require desert; each nuclear one requires Uranium.
You might even run out of Coal for standard factory in all cities.

I agree with that, but Research Labs come very late, and given that you have pretty good picks for happiness on level 1 and there are level 2 tenets that are so powerful, I find this is a tenet I often skip unless I really need that last happiness boost.

 

[KmDubya]

5 = Excellent
4 = Very good
3 = Good
2 = Decent
1 = Poor
0 = Bad or Very Bad

One thing I've noticed in all of these rate the policy threads is that people grade things a lot differently. For me if a policy is a dud and not ever taken or taken last I'd rate it as a 0 or maybe a 1. Many people rate a policy as a 2 and then state that it is a bad policy. On the scale a 2 is a score of decent which to me implies that it would be an ok policy to take. Not sure if this is a side effect of grade inflation in education these days where everyone is above average.

Sorry for going slightly OT here.

 

[redwings1340]

One thing I've noticed in all of these rate the policy threads is that people grade things a lot differently. For me if a policy is a dud and not ever taken or taken last I'd rate it as a 0 or maybe a 1. Many people rate a policy as a 2 and then state that it is a bad policy. On the scale a 2 is a score of decent which to me implies that it would be an ok policy to take. Not sure if this is a side effect of grade inflation in education these days where everyone is above average.

Sorry for going slightly OT here.

True, but for everyone, higher rated tenants are going to be better than lower rated ones. So, even if there's inflation, or noninflation, or everyone rates things differently, tenants that are rated higher on average are going to be better than tenants that are rated lower on average. So, we might not be able to get too much info from the averages themselves, but comparatively, an average of 4.7 is still going to be a better policy than an average of 3.4. So, we can still rank tenants that way and recognize that higher scores are better than lower scores, even if everyone has a different idea of what a certain score means.

 

[Tempestangel]

Level 1
4 - Hero of the People: +25% Great Person generation.
3 - Socialist Realism: +2 Local Happiness from each Monument. Build Monuments in half the usual time.
5 - Skyscrapers: Gold cost of purchasing buildings reduced by 33%.
4 - Patriotic War: +15% attack bonus when fighting in friendly territory.
2 - Double Agents: Spies have double the chance to capture an enemy spy attempting to steal a technology.
3 - Young Pioneers: +1 Local Happiness per Workshop, Factory and Solar/Nuclear/Hydro Plant.
3 - Universal Healthcare: +1 Local Happiness from each National Wonder.

Level 2
3 - Academy of Sciences: +1 Local Happiness per University, Observatory, Public School and Research Lab.
1 - Party Leadership: +1 Culture, Food, Gold, Production and Science per City.
1 - Resettlement: New Cities start with an extra 3 Population.
2 - Cultural Revolution: +34% Tourism to other Order Civilizations.
5 - Worker's Faculties: +25% Science output from Cities with a Factory. Build Factories in half the usual time.
4 Five-Year Plan: +2 Production per City. +1 Production per Mine and Quarry.

Level 3
5 - Dictatorship of the Proletariat: +34% Tourism to Civilizations with less Happiness.
4 - Iron Curtain: Free Courthouse when capturing a City. +50% Food or Production from domestic trade routes.
2 - Spaceflight Pioneers: May finish Spaceship Parts with Great Engineers. A Great Engineer and a Great Scientist appear near the Capital.


And heres my GF's
Try and guess her play style...:

L1= 5, 2, 4, 4, 5, 2, 2
L2= 5, 3, 1, 2, 5, 3
L3= 5, 5, 3

 

[joncnunn]

5 = Excellent
4 = Very good
3 = Good
2 = Decent
1 = Poor
0 = Bad or Very Bad

One thing I've noticed in all of these rate the policy threads is that people grade things a lot differently. For me if a policy is a dud and not ever taken or taken last I'd rate it as a 0 or maybe a 1. Many people rate a policy as a 2 and then state that it is a bad policy. On the scale a 2 is a score of decent which to me implies that it would be an ok policy to take. Not sure if this is a side effect of grade inflation in education these days where everyone is above average.

Sorry for going slightly OT here.

I would of had to rate every single policy within both Autocracy and Order as a zero if I rated them based on what I actually take in most games since I always go Freedom.
Even within Freedom, that system would result in my first two level 1 tenets, first level 2 tenet, and only level 3 tenet being a 5, the third level 1 and second level 2 being a 4, and all others being a zero.

My own lowest ratings are:

0 : The policy would provides no net benefit to the empire; or worse yet would actually cause harm. (Such as the one boosting Merchant specialist spawn rates if not playing Venice)

1: The policy provides some benefit, but very marginal

2: Decent, but clearly less advantageous than most.

 

[Laurwin]

The Order tenets are:

Level 1
5 - Hero of the People: +25% Great Person generation. Good strong policy and extra GPs are welcome
5 - Socialist Realism: +2 Local Happiness from each Monument. Build Monuments in half the usual time. wide empire needs extra happiness and this is one of the strongest happyness policies, except for autocracy's happiness policies
4 - Skyscrapers: Gold cost of purchasing buildings reduced by 33%. useful for quickly getting basic buildings up and running in new cities, also synergy with commerce tree
1 - Patriotic War: +15% attack bonus when fighting in friendly territory. not useful, Id rather get all the other policies and build himeji castle instead
1 - Double Agents: Spies have double the chance to capture an enemy spy attempting to steal a technology.other policies are more needed than counter espionage, and besides you can always build police station building line
4 - Young Pioneers: +1 Local Happiness per Workshop, Factory and Solar/Nuclear/Hydro Plant.good happiness from useful buildings that you were going to build anyway
2 - Universal Healthcare: +1 Local Happiness from each National Wonder. not so many national wonders for order, and tbh, the effects are overshadowed by the "per city happiness policies"

Level 2
3 - Academy of Sciences: +1 Local Happiness per University, Observatory, Public School and Research Lab.useful but only if you are unhappy
2 - Party Leadership: +1 Culture, Food, Gold, Production and Science per City.not very strong in my opinion but better than nothing I suppose
1 - Resettlement: New Cities start with an extra 3 Population.not useful at all
1 - Cultural Revolution: +34% Tourism to other Order Civilizations. I dont go for culture order wins usually, so not very useful
5 - Worker's Faculties: +25% Science output from Cities with a Factory. Build Factories in half the usual time. best policy in the entire game civ5, even stronger science than rationalism policy IMO, especially late game with big population that extra percentage adds up nicely
4 - Five-Year Plan: +2 Production per City. +1 Production per Mine and Quarry.second best policy of order IMO, after science has been boosted, this is must have

Level 3
3 - Dictatorship of the Proletariat: +34% Tourism to Civilizations with less Happiness.meh, not much of a culture player personally
3 - Iron Curtain: Free Courthouse when capturing a City. +50% Food or Production from domestic trade routes.This policy feels bugged - sometimes you dont get free courthouse instantenously???? It's useful policy but extra gold from foreign trades is also nice backup, eVEN THE COMMUNIST NEEDS MORe GOLD
3 - Spaceflight Pioneers: May finish Spaceship Parts with Great Engineers. A Great Engineer and a Great Scientist appear near the Capital.good policy for that science win, you get first advantage towards the space race tech usually.

 

[kaspergm]

I agree when I "designed" the voting system, my intention was to try to look through what one normally does and evaluate the policies in a broader light. Of course, if you find yourself skipping a tenet each and every time, this would probably mean the tenet is weak and should get a low score, but imo. that doesn't necessarily merit a 0 - for instance, I never pick Industrial Espionage (in Autocracy) because I never use my spies for stealing technologies (I use them as diplomats), but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate that IE is a valuable tenet for those who play on higher difficulty levels.

 

[Fifteenpiece]

The Order tenets are:

3 - Iron Curtain: Free Courthouse when capturing a City. +50% Food or Production from domestic trade routes.This policy feels bugged - sometimes you dont get free courthouse instantenously???? It's useful policy but extra gold from foreign trades is also nice backup, eVEN THE COMMUNIST NEEDS MORe GOLD
ry.[/I]

Laurwin

Noticed that it gives the happiness of the courthouse when you capture the city but doesn't actually build the courthouse, possibly blocked by the logic check that disallows building while in puppet status.

Later when doing a proper annex it loses the +happiness and reverts to no courthouse.

Not that big of a pain as the first happy bump seems to allow for perpetually static happy level as long as there is no annex. Have used this on wide deity vc with large map. When I use it that way it's definitely a 5 policy.

 

[Sagax]

Level 1
4 - Hero of the People: +25% Great Person generation. Same as Freedom's Avant Garde that I rated 4.
5 - Socialist Realism: +2 Local Happiness from each Monument. Build Monuments in half the usual time. Probably the easiest way to get Happiness. Instant +8 if you went for Tradition.
4 - Skyscrapers: Gold cost of purchasing buildings reduced by 33%. I do find myself rush-buying some buildings, so this tenet definitely helps.
2 - Patriotic War: +15% attack bonus when fighting in friendly territory. I play peacefully, and if a war ever occurs I beat the opponent with the technologically advanced army. So the effect of this tenet is okay, but not that notable.
3 - Double Agents: Spies have double the chance to capture an enemy spy attempting to steal a technology. Good if you are ahead in tech, kinda useless if you need to catch up.
3 - Young Pioneers: +1 Local Happiness per Workshop, Factory and Solar/Nuclear/Hydro Plant. I always have Workshops and Factories, but don't always build the plants.
1 - Universal Healthcare: +1 Local Happiness from each National Wonder. I build NC, Oxford, Ironworks, Hermitage, maybe National Visitors Center - that's 5 Happiness. Now look at Socialist Realism.

Level 2
5 - Academy of Sciences: +1 Local Happiness per University, Observatory, Public School and Research Lab. You always build science buildings.
1 - Party Leadership: +1 Culture, Food, Gold, Production and Science per City. Lackluster for the time when you adopt the ideology.
1 - Resettlement: New Cities start with an extra 3 Population. Same as Party Leadership.
2 - Cultural Revolution: +34% Tourism to other Order Civilizations. Good, but random.
5 - Worker's Faculties: +25% Science output from Cities with a Factory. Build Factories in half the usual time. Factories are always a must for me, so this tenet fits perfectly.
4 - Five-Year Plan: +2 Production per City. +1 Production per Mine and Quarry. Amazing tenet that turns production-heavy cities into monsters. Didn't give 5 points only because some cities just don't have enough hills

Level 3
3 - Dictatorship of the Proletariat: +34% Tourism to Civilizations with less Happiness. It's good, but for some reason my main cultural enemies tend to be the ones with most Happiness.
3 - Iron Curtain: Free Courthouse when capturing a City. +50% Food or Production from domestic trade routes. Not a warmonger, so don't really need this tenet. Also I tend to have puppets instead.
4 - Spaceflight Pioneers: May finish Spaceship Parts with Great Engineers. A Great Engineer and a Great Scientist appear near the Capital. The GS is good, but overall I find the space race with Freedom more effective.

 

[Laurwin]

Well, I spoke only for myself regarding civ5, and my king level strategies. I'm not that good, that I would evaluate stuff from deity level perspective.

In my rating number, I took into account the usefulness compared to other ideologies. Because, ultimately you have to decide on one ideology, or another, when you build enough factories/modern era tech. Also, you must use culture points, for social policies, in normal game setting without policy saving, so the rating keeps this in mind IMO.


Overall, I would rate order slightly higher perhaps than autocracy. This is because of the massive science buffs in order, and partly the space race bonus. Science victory is after all seems like a good solid victory condition to pursue. (although Freedom space bonus is actually the better policy of the two, in hindsight as, I was able to try out freedom in a game of mine)

Culture victory feels like too hard option in most cases, so this victory is a secondary type tactic with autocracy, compared to order-boosted science victory. Order is DESTINED FOR THE STARS.

FOR THE WORKERS GLORY! FIRE THE SPACE DOGS, ROCKETS AND SATELLITES INTO ORBIT. COMMUNISM CAN INTO SPACE

And as we know, there exist no science/space race buffs in autocracy. Autocracy is basically, purely military victory oriented ideology tree.

For future, I hope that BNW next patch will adjust the ideologies into more balanced levels.
Particularly I hope that freedom ideology would get more gold income or something. Let's face it guys, communism is basically the optimal choice currently for your economy in Civ5.

Communist Worker's facilities should NOT increase your science BY THE BIGGEST SCIENCE BONUS IN GAME. The single policy is just too overpowering.

Perhaps it would be more realistic and beneficial, if universal healthcare policy, gave science boost all across your empire's cities? This would be like, compulsory school system or something of the like. Think about the history of Prussia and Germany for example, regarding the comprehensive education model. Where as Britain and many other countries had more of an older style school system. Which one was better? Well, certainly Germany was able to rise into a European superpower, in it's economy, partly because of the good education system. I seem to remember that German soldiers were on average more fit physically, than their British counterparts in WW1, this was result of the condition of the children in the school environment in Germany. Where as, British generation of children had had worse school meals, and school participation and even occupations in dangerous jobs (child labor, which they didn't think much of at the time)

Worker's facilities should be changed into something else. Like, Communist design bureus (or something of the sort, maybe something regarding the scientist institutes which the Societ Union "created out of nothing" by placing specialists into their own little "city"). Certain parts of Soviet military research was carried out in these "scientist cities". (presumably out of secury concerns one would imagine, so the communists could keep a watchful eye on the scientists for better or worse). Maybe it should give extra boosts into research lab and science/engineer specialists.

 

[GhostSalsa]

3 - Iron Curtain: Free Courthouse when capturing a City. +50% Food or Production from domestic trade routes.This policy feels bugged - sometimes you dont get free courthouse instantenously????

Have to annex on capture. No courthouse when puppeting on capture. BNW seems to hate puppet empires. If you're conquering with Order you should be annexing everything, stolen works and AI pre-built radio towers will keep you in policy acquisition.

 

[joncnunn]

BNW seems to hate puppet empires.

More like Vanilla and G&K only punished self-founding wide and annexing wide while not having any significant downsides to puppet empires.
BNW just added a disadvantage that has the potential to affect puppets along with cities founded extremely late than ones in the other categories.

You would still have to do something ridiculous while conquering to have a puppet that would significantly slow down your science rate. You'll hit happiness restrictions first if you try to keep each and every one of the AIs tightly packed cities.

 

[GhostSalsa]

BNW just added a disadvantage that has the potential to affect puppets along with cities founded extremely late than ones in the other categories.

You would still have to do something ridiculous while conquering to have a puppet that would significantly slow down your science rate. You'll hit happiness restrictions first if you try to keep each and every one of the AIs tightly packed cities.

That might be an accurate assessment but the devs clearly put more thought into penalizing puppet empires (science penalty, no river gold, warmonger hate times a million, documented AI decision-tweaking to favor annexing, strong strong rewards in Autocracy and Order for annexing (via instant/quick-build courthouses and +2 monument/barracks happiness)), then to, say, penalizing ranged units to address core combat imbalances, which were not changed at all, so one gets the "impression" that they "hate" puppet empires and "don't care" about "every other lazy-OP strat in the game".

BNW killed almost all rewards for puppet empires as the bluntest way the devs could apparently think of to stop AI conquest-steamrolling and run-away-ing. I'm actually perfectly happy with some of the changes because both Autocracy and Order make annexing really fun. I only have to raze if I take Freedom.

 

[MattZed]

Communist Worker's facilities should NOT increase your science BY THE BIGGEST SCIENCE BONUS IN GAME. The single policy is just too overpowering.

5 - Worker's Faculties: +25% Science output from Cities with a Factory. Build Factories in half the usual time. 25 % science ... really? I will hate the day they nerf it, but let's be real ... they should nerf it.

Disagree. Order is supposed to be one of the scientific ideologies, competitive with Freedom. Freedom already has Civil Society (more population = more science) and New Deal, (not too hard to have ~5 Academies down by the time it pops) and the generally superior level 3 science victory tenet. Order has Worker's Facilities, Party Leadership (lol), the lesser level 3 tenet, and arguably Double Agents. (since it helps you keep your tech lead)

Still need to acquire coal, still need to build the factories.

 

[KmDubya]

Disagree. Order is supposed to be one of the scientific ideologies, competitive with Freedom. Freedom already has Civil Society (more population = more science) and New Deal, (not too hard to have ~5 Academies down by the time it pops) and the generally superior level 3 science victory tenet. Order has Worker's Facilities, Party Leadership (lol), the lesser level 3 tenet, and arguably Double Agents. (since it helps you keep your tech lead)

Still need to acquire coal, still need to build the factories.

I am going from memory here so correct me if my math is off.

Lets say you went tradition>rationalism> Order or Freedom. Cap is size 30 with 5 academies, three city size 20. All science buildings built.

Order would get you:
30 beaker from pop, +15 extra from pop from library, +15 extra from public school, +3 palace, +3 Nat college, +3 public school, +4 research lab, and +12 per academy. This is 133 base. Add in 4 scientists for +20 and 6 GWAM for +12. This brings it to 165 beaker base. Multiply by 50% university, 50% NC and 50% lab and 25% factory for 175% gets you to 454 beakers in cap.

The other cities get 20 +20 +3 +4 = 47 base + 4 scientist at 20 for 67 base. Multiplier of 50% uni and 50% lab and 25% factory for 125% gets you to 151 beakers.

Total for Order is 454+3x151 =907 beakers.

With the same size city Freedom gets 30+15+15+3+3+3+4+(16x5) = 153 base. Add 4 scientist at 20, 6 GWAM at 12, 3 Eng at +6 and 3 GM at +6. This gets to 197 multiply by +50 uni, +50 NC, +50lab for +150% gets you to 492 beaker in cap.

The other cities get you 20+20+3+4=47 base + 4 scientist at 20 + 3 Eng at +6 and +3 GM at +6 for 79 base multiply by 50% uni and 50% lab gets you to 100% with 158 per city. Without the eng and great merchants you get 67 base and 134 per city.

Total for freedom is 492+3x158 = 966 beakers if you can work 16 specialist in cap and 10 specialists in the other three cities. With only the 4 scientists in the other cities you get 492+134x3 = 894.

With only four cities Order is competitive with Freedom if freedom can max out specialists in the capitol. Freedom will have a stronger capitol but the other cities will generate less science. If you expand the above to more cities Order grows in power. If you let Order grow larger due to better internal trade routes it gets better than Freedom.

Bottom line Order gets more science than Freedom. If you compare Order with Freedom without rationalism it is even worse for Freedom.

 

[redwings1340]

That's not the entire story though, because Freedom allows you to get far bigger top cities than Order does. With the 50% food specialists and almost constant golden ages, Freedom will allow you to get a lot of additional food and production in your top cities than order does, allowing them to grow much faster. If your cities are the same size, order might win, but they aren't the same size because of Freedom's growth bonuses, something that no other ideology has to anywhere near the same extent. It makes a huge difference in your largest cities. The better internal trade routes of order also don't come in until T3, which can take a while to get to, and then take a while to switch to, and that's assuming you aren't using skyscrapers/external trade routes to begin with. Iron curtain is good, but it comes late and at a decently high opportunity cost. Even in your example, order might be currently getting more science, but the freedom cities are probably growing twice as fast as the order ones, and will eventually overtake these maxed out order cities.

I don't know the full calculations once you add this fact in, but I'm guessing freedom is a bit better than order on 3 or 4 cities (probably not much, workers faculties is pretty amazing), but order is nicer once you go wider and don't rely so much on specialists. This is based off of what I've experienced though, not any sort of in depth analysis. So I think while order is probably the best ideology most games, I definitely don't think it's always the right choice if you have no ideological pressures.

 

[MattZed]

I am going from memory here so correct me if my math is off.

Lets say you went tradition>rationalism> Order or Freedom. Cap is size 30 with 5 academies, three city size 20. All science buildings built.

Order would get you:
30 beaker from pop, +15 extra from pop from library, +15 extra from public school, +3 palace, +3 Nat college, +3 public school, +4 research lab, and +12 per academy. This is 133 base. Add in 4 scientists for +20 and 6 GWAM for +12. This brings it to 165 beaker base. Multiply by 50% university, 50% NC and 50% lab and 25% factory for 175% gets you to 454 beakers in cap.

The other cities get 20 +20 +3 +4 = 47 base + 4 scientist at 20 for 67 base. Multiplier of 50% uni and 50% lab and 25% factory for 125% gets you to 151 beakers.

Total for Order is 454+3x151 =907 beakers.

With the same size city Freedom gets 30+15+15+3+3+3+4+(16x5) = 153 base. Add 4 scientist at 20, 6 GWAM at 12, 3 Eng at +6 and 3 GM at +6. This gets to 197 multiply by +50 uni, +50 NC, +50lab for +150% gets you to 492 beaker in cap.

The other cities get you 20+20+3+4=47 base + 4 scientist at 20 + 3 Eng at +6 and +3 GM at +6 for 79 base multiply by 50% uni and 50% lab gets you to 100% with 158 per city. Without the eng and great merchants you get 67 base and 134 per city.

Total for freedom is 492+3x158 = 966 beakers if you can work 16 specialist in cap and 10 specialists in the other three cities. With only the 4 scientists in the other cities you get 492+134x3 = 894.

With only four cities Order is competitive with Freedom if freedom can max out specialists in the capitol. Freedom will have a stronger capitol but the other cities will generate less science. If you expand the above to more cities Order grows in power. If you let Order grow larger due to better internal trade routes it gets better than Freedom.

Bottom line Order gets more science than Freedom. If you compare Order with Freedom without rationalism it is even worse for Freedom.

The math seems good enough to me, but I think there are more factors to it. As I put in my post, I see Civil Society (specialists take 50% food) as very much being a scientific tenet, since more food = more people = more science. Order also needs to still build the factories to get the effect, so if, say, you have a 3-source of coal but 4 cities and no city states have coal, you may be out of luck. Or worse, no coal, in which case Freedom wins hands down.

On a smaller note, the Freedom Unique Wonder (Statue of Liberty) is on the Plastics bee-line, while the Kremlin requires taking 5 techs off of the bee-line, which can hurt science if you're going for a faster Kremlin.