RB20 - Miller Time

[Tatran]

Pre-turn
Let me handle those bugs.I've played last month almost only
AW-Team + raging barbs on Monarch huge map.So it shouldn't be
that difficult to keep those pillaging bastards outside our
territory with all those terrain bonusses.
Barracks won't save us, more units do.

Also I like to keep things simple.
I group the AIs,the good and the bad guys.
The good leaders : Elizabeth,Cyrus,Frederick.
The bad leaders : Peter,Tokugawa,Alexander.
Some of the good and bad leaders are already annoyed with each other.

IBT 550 BC
Barb warrior dies near Boston.

IBT 535 BC
Two of our warriors die,combat odds 10% and 20% for the barb warriors.

520 BC (2)
Archer kills the barb warrior near Washington.

490 BC (4)
Atlanta founded.
And the first barb axeman shows up.

IBT 490 BC
Peter wants open borders,why not.No one is annoyed with him.
The archers in New York kill 2 barb warriors.

IBT 475 BC
Three more barbs die.

460 BC (6)
Our warrior in the east meets a Mongol warrior.

IBT 460 BC
The first relation problem occurs.

I reject.The -2 hit will go away over time and I'm not sure if the -1 "you stopped trading
with us" will also go away.Tokugawa is now annoyed.
Barb axe dies near Philadelpha.

415 BC (9)
Drama is in,start to research Mathematics to get war-elephants ASAP.

IBT 400 BC
Three more barbs die.

385 BC (11)
Our warrior in the east meets another new leader,Mansa Musa.

Mansa's worst enemy is Alexander.
Genghis' worst enemy is Mansa Musa.

IBT 370 BC
Confucianism has been founded by Frederick.

I reject again.I wouldn't mind if Frederick goes first.
No panzers and the UniSuf civs always run away in tech in the second half of the game.

IBT 355 BC

Well,no one else has the Alphabet, so for the third time a njet.

325 BC (15)
There's only 1 annoying barb warrior in our territory, near Boston.
Our party can continue.

 

[mihau]

415 BC (9)
Drama is in,start to research Mathematics to get war-elephants ASAP.

Did U MM for it? Depending on Strauss's last pic it was supposed to fall 5 turns later.
What after Math? Calendar or Currency? Both seem worthwile.

Fred has CoL, I don't expect he will share it, maybe we should invite him for a pint? or even better arrange a party at his place, maybe Lizzy Would come? Pity there's no Katty or Issy around

See? I told you it was a good trade, but would you listen? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Don't push it

 

[Sirian]

On the question of gifting, it would have been ideal to gift stuff already known by many civs to those still lacking. This way we get benefits while giving away relatively little. The opportunities may still be there. Although now that we see some relationships forming, we need to be careful. We might also want to go through and see if there are Open Borders deals we want to cancel on our own initiative.


- Sirian

 

[Iustus]

Ok, I have the save, I would like some feedback before I play.

13 turns until math is done, our research rate is pretty slow. Construction will be 33 turns, if we want to do that next. Monarchy(24)->Feudalism(65) so that is not a faster way to upgrade units. I am concerned to be defending with archers vs axemen, but I suppose there is nothing else to be done but to hurry to Construction?

Even micromanaging the cities to sacrifice everything else only cuts one turn off Math, which is probably not worth it.

We have a total of 3 workers, 1 scout, 7 archers, and 5 warriors. With 5 cities, that seems a bit thin on the military and on workers. I would love to build some more workers, but I do not think we can afford to do it right now.

Washington is building library 64/135, it does not have a barracks. It has an archer 18/37 queued up after that.

New York is building archer 23/37, it has a barracks.

Atlanta is buidling barracks 11/90, it has no other buildings, is on the frontlines, has one archer for defense.

Philidalphia is building barracks 55/90, it has archer and warrior for defense, not sure if it is on the frontlines or not. It has no buildings finished.

Boston is building archer 12/37, has a barracks.

It takes us 7-10 turns to build an archer in every city, so we cannot pump out units very fast. War Elephants will take forever to build, when we get there.

Can we afford to wait to build the barracks in Atlanta? Philidalphia?

I think the Library in Washington is good, we need to hire some scientists to get our tech rate up asap.

Every city is working multiple unimproved plots. Now we cannot do anything about the forests, but every city except Washington is working plots we can improve right now (and Washington is waiting on re-farm on corn). I know this is due to pillaging, but what to do about it?

What direction have the barbarians been coming from? From the North to New York? From the Northwest to Washington? From the Southwest to Boston? From the SouthEast to Philidalphia? From the Southeast to Atlanta?

Is there any city we have that is not being attacked by barbarains? With the atlanta buffer, I think we can safely re-pasture the pigs and refarm the flood plains. The elephants looks like it might be semi-safe, and even the northern flood plains at Atlanta. I will move 2 workers toward New York after finishing the corn and one down to the elephants.

It looks to me like we need more archers archers archers everywhere. I am not sure we can do much else until we get elephants. Unless we want to try to get the horse city, trade for HBR and build horse archers to fight the axemen. Of course, getting HBR will make it more likely we will face HA pillagers. My take is that we seem pretty overextended as it is, I am not sure how we can build another settler and defend it with our current military, but, the horse town would ease up the pressure on Boston, so perhaps that would be a wash, and worth doing?

My initial thoughts are to cancel the barracks in Atlanta and build an archer first, axemen are no joke. Philidalphia is more than half done, so I guess I should just let it go? I wonder if after the Library in Washington we should try to do a barracks there before finishing that Archer. Frankly I am not sure we can afford it, I am not sure we can afford to do the library, but I think we need it badly.

On the trading front:

Peter needs: Meditation, Alphabet; will trade: Polythism
Mansa Musa needs: Writing; will trade Horseback Riding
Cyrus needs: Meditation, Priesthood, Alphabet, Will trade: Polythism, Wont trade: Mathematics
Alexander needs: Alphabet, Will Trade: Polythism, Iron Working
Toku: needs Alphabet, Won't trade Iron working
Elizabeth: needs Alphabet, Will Trade: Iron Working, Won't trade: Polythism
Gengis: needs Priesthood, Alphabet, Will trade: Iron Working, Wont Trade: Metal Casting
Fredrick: needs Alphabet, Will Trade: Iron Working, Won't Trade: Metal Casting, Code of Laws

Fredrick seems the most advanced, with both Metal Casting and Code of Laws as nice techs. Cyrus is the only one with Math, that we are researching. Only one knows math (13 turns for us), and we have a total monopoly on alphabet->drama. Elizabeth is apparently building the Parthenon.

Are there any wonders we want to build in the writing->drama direction which would cause us to not want to trade those techs yet? I think we might want to go for the Great Library? It would really help our tech situation out, since we cannot build cottages.

We have a monopoly on Alphabet which I want to keep as long as possible, once the AIs all get it, they will start trading like crazy and we will have to do the same or get left in the dust. The only problem is Alphabet is the only thing we have to offer for trade to most people. Another reason to hold off trading for a bit is our military. If we initate a lot of tech trading, the barbarians will get more advanced. We might want to hold off trading much until after we have elephants and can defend ourselves. But that is a long long time out.

Currently Fredrick is Confucian (founder), Cyrus is Hindu (founder) and us Buddism (founder). One of them likely founded Judaism as well, since no one adopted that religon. Everyone else has no religion currently. I am not sure how we could fit it in, but building some missionaries for Peter and/or Elizabeth could pretty easily make them buddist. Actually, it might be cheeper to just build a road to Elizabeth, if we could somehow manage it.

Because religions have not spread much, and Cyrus has not found Fredrick yet, the only negative relations modifiers are against us. -1 from Peter for not helping. -3 from Cyrus for religion. -2 from Fredrick for religion and -1 more from Fredrick for not stopping trade, -2 from toku for not stopping trade.

Toku is the only one currently Annoyed with us, but everyone else is Cautious except Elizabeth who is Pleased. I think converting Elizabeth to Buddism asap would be a great idea. Converting Mansa as well would be amazing, but I do not see how that is possible, he is so far away. I am not sure Peter is trustworthy enough.

I think we should write off Toku, and decline all his requests. Cyrus and Fredrick may also be lost causes because of religious differences, unless we want to go no-religion (do we?).

All the other relationships between AIs are so small, they could change at any moment, so I think it is better to pick who we want to be friends with, rather than base it on who likes who. Our only clear friend right now is Elizabeth, and I think we should keep it that way.

I think Mansa is a good friend as well, great person to tech trade with, and if we can make him buddist somehow, he will trade less with Cyrus and Fredrick, which is a good thing.

We could gift Meditation to Peter, if we want to court him (prob not a bad idea).

I wish we could gift something to Mansa, but he is as advanced as we are, in the same techs for the most part as well.

We could gift Cyrus Med or Priesthood, but should we? I do not see how we will ever get on his good side with religious differences.

We could gift Gengis priesthood, not sure if it is worth courting him.

Those are the only pure gifts I see that make any kind of sense.

My thoughts are to go ahead and gift Peter, since he is somewhat close. I do not know where Gengis is, so not sure about that one. I think we should write off Cyrus and Fredrick and not help them at all.

So, on my turns, I am thinking, build up military, use the 3 workers we have to improve some plots. Math then barely start construction. Prob gift peter, not sure about Gengis, not gift Cyrus. Otherwise, hold off tech trading for now, but watch to see if anyone else learns alphabet, if one more person does, then I should probably start shopping it around.

I will probably wait until tomorrow to play, to hear your thoughts.

-Iustus

 

[Iustus]

An option is to do Literature (16) instead of Construction (33). This would let us start on the Great Library somewhere, as it will take forever to build it the slow way without marble. I am guessing Washington or Atlanta would be the place to build it. Most likely Washington, even if it is not ideal, because it will have a library already. Actually with its two food resources, I think Washington is definitely the place for it, if we can manage it.

-Iustus

 

[mike p]

We need Jumbos for defense, so construction is probably the right idea.

This variant makes us hammer poor, but food rich. Why bother dedicating 70 turns of production (or whatever) to try to snag the Great Library when we can just hire a couple of specialists and build other stuff we need too in the meanwhile? It's not like Washington's cultural pressure will ever be an issue on a Huge map.

We should probably think about putting a couple of workers together with a few archers and build a trade route to England. (If she's the closest.) That should mean more commerce in every city.

Your observations on tech trading all seemed reasonable to me, at least on the surface when it's past my bed time! Just staying up and sobering up a bit.

 

[Iustus]

Because the GL is 2 more free specialists that we do not have to pay for. That means we can run 4 in Washington, meaning we will have to run less elsewhere. Which will make great scientists appear sooner, which will add an academy, lightbulbing techs, and merging into city to research even faster.

Perhaps I am wrong about this. What does everyone else think?

-Iustus

 

[Mutineer]

Lurker comment:
problem is that have very shield poor variant. You can not speed up build by slavery or by mines or my forest cutting. That mean it will take very long time, using shields avalible and there is a big chance you miss it to AI.
It is just to expencive for your variant.

 

[mihau]

Researching/trading HA is no good:
- HA barely counter Axe
- HA don't counter HA (no def. bonuses)

Elephants:
- counter Axe
- counter HA (anti-mounted bonus)

This means: construction is a must.

GL is worthwile - it can help greatly and we could prevent AIs from building it (just imagine Mansa with GL...). If we start Lit. early we have the chance to outrun AIs.

Just to make it more complicated: have U considered sticking Currency into this queve? It would speed up construction... +1trade route = 5 commerce ==> 5 beakers.

Everything depends on how much strain can we put on delaying construction...


@Sirian: I will have the mod for the variant game I wrote U about. I will probably send the mod to U after 12th Aug so U can check it. Do U think RB could start the adventure? I was thinking on the 1 Sept starting date for proper climate ...

 

[mike p]

Because the GL is 2 more free specialists that we do not have to pay for. That means we can run 4 in Washington, meaning we will have to run less elsewhere. Which will make great scientists appear sooner, which will add an academy, lightbulbing techs, and merging into city to research even faster.

Perhaps I am wrong about this. What does everyone else think?

-Iustus

That's basically true, but if the alternatives are configure Washington for production and spend X number of turns building the GL (which probably means running no scientists) and start getting GPPs after it's built, or hiring 2 specialists right now, which we certainly have the food for, I'd think we're more likely to get an Academy sooner if we skip the GL. Though in a standard game I'd certainly make a run for the GL based on our tech monopoly for Alphabet.

The cost seems too high though. I don't think we can realistically be chasing wonders until we have lumber and watermills.

 

[SpriteSODA]

they should beeline to Machinary then to Replaceable Parts for lumber mills

 

[Sirian]

Iustus, I think you got all the feedback you can expect. Go ahead and finish up, and if anything goes really badly, blame it on Drunken Stupor.


- Sirian

 

[mihau]

What time it is?

Sailing time!
See U guys in a week, have a nice time playing, I'll for U

 

[Iustus]

325 (0)

Turn the governor on in Washington, emphasize shields and commerce, math->15 turns, library in 9 turns (was 13 and 23), grow in 2 turns.

New York, emphasize shields, archer in 3 turns now (was 3), math in 14., grow in 4 turns.

Boston, governor on, archer in 9, math in 14, grow in 7 turns.

Philadelphia, governor on, emphasize commerce, math in 14, barracks in 35, grow in 1.

Atlanta, governor was on, math in 14, barracks in 40. Since an archer will take 19 turns at the current rate, I will just go ahead and build the barracks here, building units in New York.

I gift Peter Meditation.

I gift Genghis Priesthood.

I sign open borders with Mansa Musa.

IBT: Barbarian warrior suicides on Boston.

310 (1)
All 3 workers start re-farm on corn, will take 3 turns.

Exploring warriors and scout explore (as they do every turn from this point).

Move guerilla archer by Washington west, so it can intercept raiders before they reach corn.

295 (2)
Move new archer from New York toward Atlanta

265 (3)
Promote archer north of New York to Guerilla, there is barbarian archer approaching.

Corn farm finished. Start road with one worker. 2nd worker heads toward New York, will road pigs on the way. 3rd workers heads to ivory to make a camp.

250 (4)
Meet Napoleon, Elizabeth is Annoyed (+1) with him, so I do not sign open borders. He is Northeast of England, due north of Persia.

IBT: Barbarian axeman attacks boston.

Pyramids built in far away land.

235 (5)
We are the 8th most powerful civ according to the census, we need more military:

Mansa Musa demands that we cancel deals with Genghis. Well that’s it then. I think Mansa is a better friend to have than Genghis, so I am going to do it. Too bad I wasted that gift on Genghis earlier.

A hoard of barbarians headed for New York, I recall the archer headed to Atlanta.

IBT: Guerilla archer by Washington defeats barbarian warrior in the forest

Peter adopts police state, he built pyramids then.

220 (6)
Axemen are coming from somewhere toward Boston. Axemen are coming from the north, and Archers from the northeast toward New York.

Archers are coming from the southeast toward Philadelphia.

IBT: Archer dies attacking Philadelphia. Archer dies attacking archer north of New York. Axemen goes around seems to be headed toward Washington.

205 (7)
Archer finishes at Boston, start Archer (10)

IBT: Archer dies attacking Philadelphia. Warrior dies attacking archer north of New York.

Barbaian axeman headed to Washington from due west, I should have left the Archer over there.

190 (8)
Alexander demands we cancel deals with Fredrick. This is what Sirian mean before, I should have done this before he asked. Well, I do it now.

I cancel open borders with Cyrus.

Library finishes in Washington, start an archer(3), as there is an axeman enroute!

Exploring warrior retreats from barbarian axeman (in the south).

Exploring warrior finds a hut, risks it, and spawns 2 more barbarian warriors, I do not think he will survive.

Move two archers from New York to try to intercept Axeman.

IBT: Success, archer defeats barbarian axeman.

Failure, our woodsman warrior loses to the hostile villagers.

175 (9)

IBT: Axeman near Washington defeats our Guerilla Archer, but is nearly dead.

Woodsman elite exploring warrior defeats warrior in the far east, but is nearly dead.

160 (10)
Napoleon asks for Open Borders, Elizabeth is still annoyed (+1) with him, so I decline for now.

145 (11)
Mansa offers Horseback riding for Alphabet, I decline.

Archer finishes in Washington, start another.

Moving troops around trying to deal with all the barbarians.

IBT: Archer between Washington and New York defeats archer. Archer north of New York defeats Axeman. Archer west of Washington defeats wounded Axeman.

130 (12)
Overendulged and blacked this turn out.

115 (13)
Mathematics done. Start Construction (25)

Archer finished in New York, start another.

Start re-building pig pasture near New York.

100 (14)

Alexander offers Iron Working (495) for Mathematics (618), I decline.

Archer attacks the barbarian warrior that went around us to get to pig pasture, 93% chance: and we win!

85 BC (15)

Hmm, Somehow I think we got off track, or I lost count. I guess I should have ended at 100 BC? Blame it on the blackout!

Elizabeth offers Iron Working for Mathematics. I will decline and let next player decide on this.

Archer in Washington finishes, queue up a Barracks (10) but next player can change.

Barracks is near finished in Philly.

This picture shows where the barbarians are coming from, and what we defending with:
(picture moved to next post, because its very wide)

My plan was to move the westernmost archer to west two to the hill, to protect from that direction. The others were somewhat floating, but you can see the major direction they are coming from is the northeast.

I did not take a similar picture from the south, because there has been less activity there, so I have a less clear picture where they will come from next.

We are now 6th in Soldiers.

ROSTER:
* Sirian --> on deck, no more for you!
* Strauss --> sleeping it off
* Tatran ---> celebrating!
* Iustus --> ready to party!
* mike p --> UP!


-Iustus

 

[Iustus]

(picture moved here, because its too wide)
This picture shows where the barbarians are coming from, and what we defending with:

My plan was to move the westernmost archer to west two to the hill, to protect from that direction.
The others were somewhat floating, but you can see the major direction they are coming from is the northeast.

I did not take a similar picture from the south, because there has been less activity there, so I have a less clear picture where they will come from next.

I did not hire scientists at Washington, but I think it has cooled down enough that you can safely do so now.

I built a couple of roads when the workers had to go through rough terrain to avoid the barbarains.

-Iustus

 

[Sirian]

You missed a turn at 280BC.

Botching the number of turns played is NOT covered by Drunken Stupor. Bring a designated driver next time. (Seriously!)

Check your starting date and the rate the years are passing and do the math up front, rather than trying to count the turns one at a time. (Sorry. Playing wrong number of turns is one of my peeves). The rate of years passing changes only a couple of times per game, but that's the only complication.


The barbs are certainly giving us some grief. You did a nice job fending them off, though. (Hey. If none crashed my party, that was good enough!) The diagram seems pretty descriptive. Mike p should be able to keep the kegs flowing.


- Sirian

 

[mike p]

OK, I only played 14 turns to get us back on track.

85BC I spy an unpopped hut south of Atlanta - how did that survive? I'm sending a warrior to investigate.

70BC I hire a couple of scientists in Washington. Our research is pitiful and we need the boost.

55BC Start a couple of more archers in Philly and Boston. It would be all right if the barbs just came to party gently, but they tend to get even rowdier after a few, so we need deterrents.

40BC

25BC Three barb archers and an axeman get taken down by our archers. Who knew drunks could shoot so straight?

10BC Looking at New York, I get started on two farms for the plains/river tiles since 2F 1H 1C is a monster tile for us right now.

5AD Liz comes looking for our whole Alphabet. I give only two letters. N. O.

The neighbors are restless in Atlanta.

20AD One of our scouts ends his move, and his life, next to a barb axeman. Remember Children, don't go wandering around strange forests drunk.

35AD Atlanta holds against a slew of barbs. I promote our archer to CG 3, let's not take chances. I probably would have founded it on the hill to the north just to be safe, but the river bend helps us some here anyway.

Hey look, there's an archer fortified in that hut south of Atlanta. Let's rampage through there with Elephants!

50AD Looks like we've run out of beer money. Our research rate goes even lower. I hope the fridge is stocked at least. Christianity is founded in a distant land.

65AD (What? Coffee goes well with a hangover!)

80AD Liz converts to Christianity.

95AD I find a hut along the north edge of the map, just west of Lyons. I pop a hostile warrior, who fails to drown himself.

110AD Our warrior survives the hostiles, and I move him to the jungle hill to heal up - could be a while.

125AD Barracks done in Washington. I start a Buddhist monestary. Perhaps I should have jumped that ahead of the barracks, we need every scrap of research we can get.

Atlanta and Boston are building settlers. I figure Boston can reach for the horses. I'd like Atlanta's to settle NW of the hut. Once we farm the copper and wheat and pasture the cows, we should have a monstrous production city. Relatively speaking.


If you'd rather go for slower, safer growth, there are a number of natural choke points south of Philly. Whatever you think is best.

I've tried moving some of our archers back into our territory to reduce upkeep costs. It seemed to help, but some things on the upkeep screen just don't make sense to me for some reason.

With farms as our only real improvement, we definitely need to start running more specialists!

 

[Sirian]

IT 125AD: I go back to Alexander and pull the trigger on the Iron Working trade.
Not having to give up Alphabet to get that tech in trade is a bargain for us.
I would pull more such trades if possible.

We learn that a Windmill at Philly will be garnering an extra spt for all time:

A second source lies in the desert north of New York.
There are others out in the periphery.

I then give Math to Liz:

Seems like a relatively low cost for ensuring that we do not become her "worst enemy".
Seeing as she is our closest neighbor, she will be one of the first we can hook up to with trade route income.

As you can see, I've reworked our cities a bit:

Atlanta swapped to max shield config and switched to Granary.
(Settler there would just be too costly right now.)

Washington takes over the settler duty, still running two scientists.

New York is changed to max food, so it will grow and also pull in more commerce.
The Library will be timed to complete around the time Construction comes in, so it can start a Jumbo IMMEDIATELY.

Philly swapped to max shield/commerce config. Now using the Ivory tile.
This city is no longer growing, but after it trains a Jumbo, should build Granary.

Research rate increased to 60%, for the moment, on the back of the higher commerce yields at NY and DC.


By the end of my round, we should have a sixth city and a seventh settler.
Atlanta will have completed its granary and been swapped to max food.
Most of two Jumbos will have been trained.
Our first Great Leader will emerge and be put to use.


So ended the Inherited Turn.

WHAT TIME IS IT?!?

 

[Sirian]

Early: Fending off barbs. Philly trained an Archer, started another.

I gifted Meditation to Cyrus, but that had no visible effect. Oh well. I also accepted his offer to reopen Open Borders. I think the idea that we will be able to buddy up with the "peaceful" civs may be in jeopardy, if they all found their own religions. Liz we need to make a special effort, and MAYBE Cyrus, too, but not Frederick and maybe not Mansa (especially not Mansa if he founds Islam). If we can get missionaries to Russia, Greece, maybe France or Mongolia too, we might get them on our side.

France and Russia are clearly suffering. Could be poor lands, could be barb trouble. They are really weak, though. Alexander, on the other hand, could be trouble. Locating him and getting a missionary to his lands might be very important. Once we have several Jumbos and have doubled our Worker force (we are REALLY slacking on workers!) we should prioritize getting a Monastary going NOT IN WASHINGTON but a high shield city, maybe New York or maybe Atlanta, and try to get some religion going to neighbors. This would be a follow up to our early emphasis on scouting, which will pay off for us in the big picture.


200AD: New York completed its Library. Rather than waste the overflow in to something that will only end up going to waste (via decay), I pop it on over to "building research" for a turn, which preserves the overflow. This along with upping science will also get Construction a turn sooner:

The dotted plots are spots where we can legally build a Watermill. That's right, folks. Can't build them along river corners. So we need farms on the two corner plots. Yellow dot should be the last spot to get a watermill, and that's if we can afford the lost food there. Not sure about that yet.

Since New York will also grow next turn, I wait for that to happen before running scientists there.


230AD: Serious incoming at Atlanta.

New Pink Dot(TM) absolutely must be our next city site. It will form a new front line and completely shelter Atlanta from hassle, as well as being one of the few sites out there with lots of clearings. The Orange dots are once again the only legal watermill sites, but they would be relatively safe in the back lines.


Atlanta under attack:

However, our CR3 Archer fends off an Archer and two Axemen without taking a single scratch. Just to be safe, though, I move the new Archer produced out of Philly in this direction. This will leave us thinner in the west, but fully secure (I hope) at Atlanta.

I ended up not completing the road to Atlanta, considering the improvement of tiles at New York a greater urgency.

TRULY, we need more workers. I wish for us to set a goal of training at least three more new workers by the end of Tatran's round. Don't chase that at all costs, but certainly having Washington training nothing but workers for the next couple of rounds looks good to me. (While it's running Scientists and max food/commerce the whole while!)


260AD: Reports of Persian military success filters through the grapevine:

The AIs get almost a free pass vs barbs, though less so on a map like this with so much defensive terrain. Surely the Persians beat down a city guarded by warriors, though. Lucky bastids.

 

[Iustus]

(edit) woops, interrupted in middle of Sirian's post, ignore this!