Coffee
Cdn Expat
Ok i got it.
RBC12B - Fall of Rome - Celts, Sid
- Thread starter T-hawk
- Start date
Coffee
Cdn Expat
Turn 10 - 464AD
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/rbc12b-464ad.zip
My Peturn thoughts - 444 ad - 0
A lengthy preturn moving workers etc. after the Fall of Western Rome. Trade WM + 11g for Franks TM, they have iron but not horses. I buy peace with Eastern Rome for 135g + WM because I can get fsacking for ~ 47gpt and all in ~ 3 turns. I'm going to try for the Franks south eastern cities. Two have a road connection the other four do not. So pretty much I'm just going to try and out run the Franks.
Turns 1 - 5
It takes forever but the game wakes up but when it does the Franks demand TM & 19g, I cave. I load the military onto 7 galleys & also wait on some healing. I set sail for southeast France the Franks give me the boot, I leave. Whip a spear in Pompeii, walls next turn. Five more turns before I declare war. The Franks do a rinse and repeat & we get the galleys to where they need to be. Buy sacking from Germany -> 46gpt + 70g Declare war on the Franks & sell WP's, Have enough cash to upgrade one pillager. This will give the Franks a GA. This is a big gamble.
Turns 6 -10
Lose 1 spear & 1 marauder in the inital battle. Load the armies, attack and defeat 6 units. Lose pompeii to the Franks warlords. Take 2 cities. Lots of warlords & one Heavy Cav mixed up in miscellaneous battles no loses. Sack city number 3. Following a massive catapult bombardment our warlord defeats a lowly spear and our golden age begins. (circa turn 9 - 462 AD) The Franks settle Avignon beside our army? I move in that direction perhaps can take Avignon next turn. I say *perhaps* because our armies are low on hit points. Humbles and welcome to Sid, not that Speaker is a stranger.
Avignon will be #4, the galleys are back where they began and the Franks coastal cities are unconnected.
Great battles
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/rbc12b-464ad.zip
My Peturn thoughts - 444 ad - 0
A lengthy preturn moving workers etc. after the Fall of Western Rome. Trade WM + 11g for Franks TM, they have iron but not horses. I buy peace with Eastern Rome for 135g + WM because I can get fsacking for ~ 47gpt and all in ~ 3 turns. I'm going to try for the Franks south eastern cities. Two have a road connection the other four do not. So pretty much I'm just going to try and out run the Franks.
Turns 1 - 5
It takes forever but the game wakes up but when it does the Franks demand TM & 19g, I cave. I load the military onto 7 galleys & also wait on some healing. I set sail for southeast France the Franks give me the boot, I leave. Whip a spear in Pompeii, walls next turn. Five more turns before I declare war. The Franks do a rinse and repeat & we get the galleys to where they need to be. Buy sacking from Germany -> 46gpt + 70g Declare war on the Franks & sell WP's, Have enough cash to upgrade one pillager. This will give the Franks a GA. This is a big gamble.
Turns 6 -10
Lose 1 spear & 1 marauder in the inital battle. Load the armies, attack and defeat 6 units. Lose pompeii to the Franks warlords. Take 2 cities. Lots of warlords & one Heavy Cav mixed up in miscellaneous battles no loses. Sack city number 3. Following a massive catapult bombardment our warlord defeats a lowly spear and our golden age begins. (circa turn 9 - 462 AD) The Franks settle Avignon beside our army? I move in that direction perhaps can take Avignon next turn. I say *perhaps* because our armies are low on hit points. Humbles and welcome to Sid, not that Speaker is a stranger.
Avignon will be #4, the galleys are back where they began and the Franks coastal cities are unconnected.Great battles
T-hawk
Transcend
C'mon, we don't get a more detailed report on the fights than that? 
We lost Pompeii... don't worry about getting eliminated (we aren't going to lose 7 more cities), but can we retake it for another city towards 8 for the Franks?
Anyway, this game will likely be OVAH very very soon. Would anyone object to going to 5-turn intervals so everyone up to Charis can get at least one more turn? (Fine if I don't get in again myself; I did plenty on my last turn )
T-hawk
Speaker << UP NOW
Coffee
Jabah << On Deck
Charis
We lost Pompeii... don't worry about getting eliminated (we aren't going to lose 7 more cities), but can we retake it for another city towards 8 for the Franks?Anyway, this game will likely be OVAH very very soon. Would anyone object to going to 5-turn intervals so everyone up to Charis can get at least one more turn? (Fine if I don't get in again myself; I did plenty on my last turn
)T-hawk
Speaker << UP NOW
Coffee
Jabah << On Deck
Charis
Charis
Realms Beyond
Coffee, we're report-o-holics here, fill is in more next time!
I had a very enjoyable time in England and if it doesn't make it back because we do so well vs Franks, I don't mind. If you want 10 tis fine, if you feel satisfied after 5-8, that's ok too.
EDIT - Ok, that was SO sparse I have to open the save file...
I had expected the write-up to be brief but the game in great shape, alas, no...
We are odds on favorites to lose 1-2 armies in the interturn and next turn
- Two armies together have 3 hp each - they and a stack of cats with them could be wiped out by as few as two HC?
Worse, there is a warlord and heavy cav next to them. They've moved and are not set to heal and probably WILL die!?
- Three armies on the mainland and not a single one has a warlord in it???? OMG such impatience!!
- French have only lost 3 cities? How can that be? (And yes, Pompeii is somehow French?)
- The two tiny French cities on are island are not only untouched but have no unit anywhere near it?? There's a stack of 21 cats and two pillagers *asleep* at home and not going after Bayonne?
(Leaving one for #8 isn't a bad idea, but leaving two beachheads makes no sense)
- If those two live to *heal* the easiest cities in reach are Rennes and Amiens. Backtracking towards home, Poiteirs and Pompeii are easy targets.
- Our other army, with one pillager with him, should be ok to take Avignon, Besacon and Rouen. That combo of cities listed, plus the ones in England, are enough to eliminate them.
- We have *four* inappropriate clowns?? Come now...
- Dalraida and Dunedin both are at highly inefficient spt for warlord production. Dalraida can be set to perfect food 24spt for warlord per three, and Dundein to 18spt with a mine for one per four.
- If Franks landed a boat of HC next to Dunedin we would lose our capital and best city in 1-2 turns and could do nothing to stop them. The best units in our inner core are raider and spear.
- Jerusalem has a sole defender, and no help within range, despite three Frank ships 2 steps away??
- Entremont with no rax is building a WL with no rax? Ditto Cruachu.
- We're building galleys yet have *10* asleep in the open coastal sea.
Coffee, you were in the Scouting Sid game, right? What happened here? Did you try to rush and play your turn in 20 minutes (and writeup in 5?) Are you learning things from the other RBC12 games? What I'm seeing above is barely 'Monarch' level, it's inconsistent with the level of play I think I've seen from you, and inexplicable in a Sid game. I hope I'm not sounding harsh (though it might sound that way) - I'm just completely surprised by the state of the nation and army.
On the plus side - If I didn't think you were an excellent player I would not break out the like this 
EDIT - The alter-ego of Charis finishes his morning coffee and chimes in, "Good grief man! Lighten up! It's just a game, and remeber, he tried to back out but no... you insisted he dive into the Sid game! Shame on you Charis!
Good luck to our next leader! (It's by no means OVAH)
Charis
I had a very enjoyable time in England and if it doesn't make it back because we do so well vs Franks, I don't mind. If you want 10 tis fine, if you feel satisfied after 5-8, that's ok too.
EDIT - Ok, that was SO sparse I have to open the save file...
I had expected the write-up to be brief but the game in great shape, alas, no...
We are odds on favorites to lose 1-2 armies in the interturn and next turn
- Two armies together have 3 hp each - they and a stack of cats with them could be wiped out by as few as two HC?
Worse, there is a warlord and heavy cav next to them. They've moved and are not set to heal and probably WILL die!?
- Three armies on the mainland and not a single one has a warlord in it???? OMG such impatience!!
- French have only lost 3 cities? How can that be? (And yes, Pompeii is somehow French?)
- The two tiny French cities on are island are not only untouched but have no unit anywhere near it?? There's a stack of 21 cats and two pillagers *asleep* at home and not going after Bayonne?
(Leaving one for #8 isn't a bad idea, but leaving two beachheads makes no sense)
- If those two live to *heal* the easiest cities in reach are Rennes and Amiens. Backtracking towards home, Poiteirs and Pompeii are easy targets.
- Our other army, with one pillager with him, should be ok to take Avignon, Besacon and Rouen. That combo of cities listed, plus the ones in England, are enough to eliminate them.
- We have *four* inappropriate clowns?? Come now...
- Dalraida and Dunedin both are at highly inefficient spt for warlord production. Dalraida can be set to perfect food 24spt for warlord per three, and Dundein to 18spt with a mine for one per four.
- If Franks landed a boat of HC next to Dunedin we would lose our capital and best city in 1-2 turns and could do nothing to stop them.
The best units in our inner core are raider and spear.- Jerusalem has a sole defender, and no help within range, despite three Frank ships 2 steps away??
- Entremont with no rax is building a WL with no rax? Ditto Cruachu.
- We're building galleys yet have *10* asleep in the open coastal sea.
Coffee, you were in the Scouting Sid game, right? What happened here? Did you try to rush and play your turn in 20 minutes (and writeup in 5?) Are you learning things from the other RBC12 games? What I'm seeing above is barely 'Monarch' level, it's inconsistent with the level of play I think I've seen from you, and inexplicable in a Sid game. I hope I'm not sounding harsh (though it might sound that way) - I'm just completely surprised by the state of the nation and army.
On the plus side - If I didn't think you were an excellent player I would not break out the
like this EDIT - The alter-ego of Charis finishes his morning coffee and chimes in, "Good grief man! Lighten up! It's just a game, and remeber, he tried to back out but no... you insisted he dive into the Sid game! Shame on you Charis!
Good luck to our next leader! (It's by no means OVAH)
Charis
Coffee
Cdn Expat
An apology is not a consolation I know and when I reread my report this morning I thought about how awful it really is. I dont know what I was thinking when I wrote it. Apologies. 
T-hawk
Transcend
My fault on fortifying the catapult stack at home - I did that to keep them out of the way while loading pillagers and armies onto the galleys for the first trip. I can see how Coffee might have missed that they were there.
At least now we can go and use those cats to take out the two Frankish cities on the England isle.
Edit: Speaker, you can't string us along like that. Especially the line "Turns done" appearing right next to "Sid's Defeated" makes one's heart jump a bit... 
At least now we can go and use those cats to take out the two Frankish cities on the England isle.
Edit: Speaker, you can't string us along like that.
Especially the line "Turns done" appearing right next to "Sid's Defeated" makes one's heart jump a bit... Jabah
Emperor
Is there any hope you post the game quite soon (within 2 hours), so I can play tonight (it is already 19h30 here), but won't be able to do so tomorrow night (I could do it satursday morning european time which should be fine for Charis to play satursday too).
Jabah
T-hawk
Transcend
Peeking in the editor again, I realized something. The score given for unit kills, presumably including for the finisher bonus, depends on the *cost* of the killed unit. It's 1 point per shield cost (the editor sets it up as 10 points per 10 shield cost, same thing), which means that heavy cavalry (70 shields) and legions (50) are far more important than riffraff with spears (20).
THAT's why we got such a huge victory point boost. Rome was completely nongassed - they'd never been in any other wars. Every one of the TONS of heavy cavalry and legions that they'd ever built was still running around and turned into points for us. In the Visigoths game, Rome had to have had close to zero HCs and only token garrison legions and spears left, which is why that Rome was worth a third as much as the Sid one.
That also means that any barb tribe with Warlords will be worth a decent amount as well. They're also 70 shield cost. And because they're slow, whenever a barb civ gets eliminated, there will probably still be a good number of warlords en route from the production sites to the battlefields. However, the barb tribes will only use 20-shield spears for garrisons, not 50-shield legions, so they won't quite be worth as much as a Rome. I think the Franks finisher bonus will still be worth at least 5-6K here, though, which will be enough.
This also explains why Rome in the Visigoths game was so close to winning before being defeated. With a dogpile on them, they were slaughtering lots of incoming barb Warlords, at 70 points a pop.
Jabah, playing Saturday morning is fine, don't rush yourself to play sooner than that.
THAT's why we got such a huge victory point boost. Rome was completely nongassed - they'd never been in any other wars. Every one of the TONS of heavy cavalry and legions that they'd ever built was still running around and turned into points for us. In the Visigoths game, Rome had to have had close to zero HCs and only token garrison legions and spears left, which is why that Rome was worth a third as much as the Sid one.
That also means that any barb tribe with Warlords will be worth a decent amount as well. They're also 70 shield cost. And because they're slow, whenever a barb civ gets eliminated, there will probably still be a good number of warlords en route from the production sites to the battlefields. However, the barb tribes will only use 20-shield spears for garrisons, not 50-shield legions, so they won't quite be worth as much as a Rome. I think the Franks finisher bonus will still be worth at least 5-6K here, though, which will be enough.
This also explains why Rome in the Visigoths game was so close to winning before being defeated. With a dogpile on them, they were slaughtering lots of incoming barb Warlords, at 70 points a pop.
Jabah, playing Saturday morning is fine, don't rush yourself to play sooner than that.
Sorry for the tease, but I barely fit in some time to play between classes and then had practice and immediately drove 2.5 hours to watch my college basketball team fall by 2 in the conference playoffs.
Because of the results of my turns, I was not worried about when Jabah has time to play.
See why....
I feel partially responsible for getting us in this mess because I requested a swap and rushed Coffee. Let's see if I can get us out of it.
IT- First things first I sink the galley next to Dijon. Out of curiosity, how are troops being moved from Ireland to England? I move two Galleys toward Ireland. And I move our sleeping stack toward Dijon.
*hit enter and hope for the best*
The heavily wounded army kills a warlord and the HC retreats. The other army is untouched.
466AD (1): Sink a Frank galley. Oh, just noticed a sleeping galley in Dun Ailinne. Bombard Avignon and the pillager Army destroys it. Franks have now lost 4 cities. I'm not really sure what to do with the two wounded armies, so I rest them both. Hopefully they will regain a lot of strength. Jerusalem now has a Marauder, a Pillager, and a Spearman, though the galleys have vacated the premises. I bombard a road north of the two wounded armies to help shield them.
IT- Angry Frank units converge on our two wounded armies, healing on a hilltop. Catapults do not get a first shot, and a Warlord decimates one of the armies.
468AD (2): Kill a couple warlords in France. Cats go to work on Dijon, protected by 4 spears. Pillager enslaves a worker and two units promote to Elite.
IT- Galleys drop off a scary stack of 3 HC, a Warlord and Raider near Antium, which we will almost certainly lose next turn. Charis was right. I thought we'd have a few more turns to protect our core though. French units swarm and kill our pillager in the middle of France but our army is still alive.
470AD (3): Destroy Dijon. Kill one HC near Antium but there are a few left.
IT- Sure enough, Antium falls.
472AD (4): Warlord kills Pillager and enslaves a Marauder. Unload 2 units next to Pompeii with 2 more to come next turn. Kill a few units in Antium and move more units next to it.
IT- Army kills two warlords but dies to a HC.
474AD (5): With 7 HC around, Pompeii is defended by a single Spear and Raider.
Capture Antium back, killing 2 spears. Kill a Frank Warlord and Raider in England and advance toward Bayonne, which will eliminate the Franks and should win us the game.
476AD (6): Positioning for the kill.
478AD (7): Kill a few troops in Bayonne and land a few more attackers.
It- Anglo-Saxons sign alliance with Franks against us.
480AD (8): Bayonne falls and just like that we have 37860 vp and the game is over.
Final Turn - Take out Bayonne to Win
Bayonne Taken - Hit Enter to Win
I was pretty lax with the homeland as it was quite apparent that the game was definitely over and I was a bit pressed for time. I only mention that in case anyone wonders why some cities have entertainers or aren't optimized properly (although I did finish the mine in our core).
It was a well-played game that I'm not sure what to make of. Our strength is/was relatively low, yet we easily won.
Because of the results of my turns, I was not worried about when Jabah has time to play.
See why....
I feel partially responsible for getting us in this mess because I requested a swap and rushed Coffee. Let's see if I can get us out of it.
IT- First things first I sink the galley next to Dijon. Out of curiosity, how are troops being moved from Ireland to England? I move two Galleys toward Ireland. And I move our sleeping stack toward Dijon.
*hit enter and hope for the best*
The heavily wounded army kills a warlord and the HC retreats. The other army is untouched.
466AD (1): Sink a Frank galley. Oh, just noticed a sleeping galley in Dun Ailinne. Bombard Avignon and the pillager Army destroys it. Franks have now lost 4 cities. I'm not really sure what to do with the two wounded armies, so I rest them both. Hopefully they will regain a lot of strength. Jerusalem now has a Marauder, a Pillager, and a Spearman, though the galleys have vacated the premises. I bombard a road north of the two wounded armies to help shield them.
IT- Angry Frank units converge on our two wounded armies, healing on a hilltop. Catapults do not get a first shot, and a Warlord decimates one of the armies.
468AD (2): Kill a couple warlords in France. Cats go to work on Dijon, protected by 4 spears. Pillager enslaves a worker and two units promote to Elite.
IT- Galleys drop off a scary stack of 3 HC, a Warlord and Raider near Antium, which we will almost certainly lose next turn. Charis was right. I thought we'd have a few more turns to protect our core though. French units swarm and kill our pillager in the middle of France but our army is still alive.
470AD (3): Destroy Dijon. Kill one HC near Antium but there are a few left.
IT- Sure enough, Antium falls.
472AD (4): Warlord kills Pillager and enslaves a Marauder. Unload 2 units next to Pompeii with 2 more to come next turn. Kill a few units in Antium and move more units next to it.
IT- Army kills two warlords but dies to a HC.
474AD (5): With 7 HC around, Pompeii is defended by a single Spear and Raider.
Capture Antium back, killing 2 spears. Kill a Frank Warlord and Raider in England and advance toward Bayonne, which will eliminate the Franks and should win us the game.476AD (6): Positioning for the kill.
478AD (7): Kill a few troops in Bayonne and land a few more attackers.
It- Anglo-Saxons sign alliance with Franks against us.
480AD (8): Bayonne falls and just like that we have 37860 vp and the game is over.
Final Turn - Take out Bayonne to Win
Bayonne Taken - Hit Enter to Win
I was pretty lax with the homeland as it was quite apparent that the game was definitely over and I was a bit pressed for time. I only mention that in case anyone wonders why some cities have entertainers or aren't optimized properly (although I did finish the mine in our core).
It was a well-played game that I'm not sure what to make of. Our strength is/was relatively low, yet we easily won.
T-hawk
Transcend
Wow indeed. I think we're the answer to Charis' poll about which team will have the most resounding victory. 
And yet, this victory was indeed easier on Sid than it would have been on a lower difficulty, crazily enough. On Deity, the two civs we eliminated would not bring us up to 35k victory points, and we'd have to attack the Anglos as well. Heck, this game might be *hardest* for the Celts on Monarch or so! With much fewer enemy units available to kill, the Celts would probably have to extend out far enough to attack East Rome to get themselves over 35k before East Rome would.
What to make of this game is twofold. First, 8-city elimination plays spectacularly directly to the human's biggest advantage over the AI. It's a huge tactical maneuvering task for the AI to conquer eight cities, but the human can manage that easily. And the AI doesn't know not to expand out to weakly defended cities.
And second, I think this scenario is a pretty easy win for the Celts on any difficulty. Nobody can seriously threaten the Celtic core, and they get a ton of weak West Rome cities right on their doorstep. It still takes execution and planning - the catapult stack was the key to overcoming the Roman cities - but for a player or team that knows what they're doing, a Sid win sure is quite probable.
I apologize to Jabah, that you only got one turn which wasn't very interesting. Oh well; we'll make sure to cut down to shorter player turns earlier next time
and you did contribute helpful discussion and ideas, of course.
Congrats and thanks again to the team!
And yet, this victory was indeed easier on Sid than it would have been on a lower difficulty, crazily enough. On Deity, the two civs we eliminated would not bring us up to 35k victory points, and we'd have to attack the Anglos as well. Heck, this game might be *hardest* for the Celts on Monarch or so! With much fewer enemy units available to kill, the Celts would probably have to extend out far enough to attack East Rome to get themselves over 35k before East Rome would.
What to make of this game is twofold. First, 8-city elimination plays spectacularly directly to the human's biggest advantage over the AI. It's a huge tactical maneuvering task for the AI to conquer eight cities, but the human can manage that easily. And the AI doesn't know not to expand out to weakly defended cities.
And second, I think this scenario is a pretty easy win for the Celts on any difficulty. Nobody can seriously threaten the Celtic core, and they get a ton of weak West Rome cities right on their doorstep. It still takes execution and planning - the catapult stack was the key to overcoming the Roman cities - but for a player or team that knows what they're doing, a Sid win sure is quite probable.
I apologize to Jabah, that you only got one turn which wasn't very interesting. Oh well; we'll make sure to cut down to shorter player turns earlier next time
and you did contribute helpful discussion and ideas, of course. Congrats and thanks again to the team!
Jabah
Emperor
Well done!
Even if, as T-Hawk said, my part was not the most exciting, preparing the army for Charis' action and missing the last war, it was nice and interesting to have all the strategic brainstroming.
It is quite lucky for us that the bonus was high enough as I have the feeling our forces were pretty exhausted after these last actions and going after another Civ would have been quite difficult.
Sid AI's are for sure not the best one when it comes to NOT lose cities.
Question to coffee : when we lost our beachhead (Pompei?) what was defending it, as I had the impression our armies and catapults were in action far away (not that it could have change the results, at least in this scenario the AIs dare attack armies - because of low defence-, not like in normal game -see discussion for Epic3
Nice time playing with you all and hope to do it again (with more/longer action for me)
Jabah
Even if, as T-Hawk said, my part was not the most exciting, preparing the army for Charis' action and missing the last war, it was nice and interesting to have all the strategic brainstroming.
It is quite lucky for us that the bonus was high enough as I have the feeling our forces were pretty exhausted after these last actions and going after another Civ would have been quite difficult.
Sid AI's are for sure not the best one when it comes to NOT lose cities.
Question to coffee : when we lost our beachhead (Pompei?) what was defending it, as I had the impression our armies and catapults were in action far away (not that it could have change the results, at least in this scenario the AIs dare attack armies - because of low defence-, not like in normal game -see discussion for Epic3
Nice time playing with you all and hope to do it again (with more/longer action for me
)Jabah
Coffee
Cdn Expat
Question to coffee : when we lost our beachhead (Pompei?) what was defending it, as I had the impression our armies and catapults were in action far away
Almost nothing, Pompei was designed to fail. The intent was to destroy 4-5 cities in the far southeast, the greatest distance from the Franks capital for the obvious reasons. That left 1-2 unconnected Frank cities on the coast for thae sake of completion. Losing the armies was also part of the intent, as was keeping the cats in England for use against the Franks there. I didn't forsee the Franks capturing one of ours in the core. I'm glad they did, it let Speaker complete the game sooner than anticipated.
Congrats on a great game!
Almost nothing, Pompei was designed to fail. The intent was to destroy 4-5 cities in the far southeast, the greatest distance from the Franks capital for the obvious reasons. That left 1-2 unconnected Frank cities on the coast for thae sake of completion. Losing the armies was also part of the intent, as was keeping the cats in England for use against the Franks there. I didn't forsee the Franks capturing one of ours in the core. I'm glad they did, it let Speaker complete the game sooner than anticipated.
Congrats on a great game!
