RBD SG3 - The Builders

[Sirian]

Because this will be such a large, time-intensive game relative to a typical game, I'm protective of my investment in it, so this game will only be open to experienced folks I know won't wreck the game in the middle by dropping out, vanishing, etc.

That was part of the original post. It's been 48 with no word from Toasty, so I'm dropping him from the roster. Sorry, Toasty, but we want to keep this one moving, and the rules were posted.

That brings the game back to me. I'll play and post. Schnarrd, let us know when you're available again.


- Sirian

 

[Schnarrd]

Sirian, if you haven't already started playing the game, I'll jump in and take my turns. If you have already started, no big deal. Should I play after you, or with the drop-out of Toasty would you prefer to reorganize the roster?

 

[Sirian]

Good work, Carbon. The right number of troops in the right places in the north, plenty of settlers moving around. I founded six new cities and only built one settler, just the way things break with only ten turns per player now.

Inherited turn: changed Philly and NY to temples, shuffled some food around with Boston/Washington, established embassy with Russia. Russia is rather isolated, but being an expansionist civ, I figured they had to have one or more scouts out and would soon make contact with somebody, so I traded them contact with the world for their world map, Horseback Riding, and all their gold (10). Their map revealed they had units ON THE DOORSTEP of Japanese land, so this move was born out.

First turn: took settler heading north off of Goto, and prepared to send him to white dot. Changed Atlanta's second tile from plains to sea, picking up one gold per turn (shields were maxed on the settler). Used the worker in the area to build road toward site of future Houston (and bring irrigation back from the river). Found a goody hut in the No Man's Land between Russia and Japan, and, seeing a black area in the region the Russians had not explored yet, decided to backtrack for a look, and hope for a goody hut.

Early turns: Founded Chicago, Seattle, San Fran. Finished Pyramids, watched most civs switch to Great Library, established embassy with France and saw that they are CLOSE to finishing the GL -- too close for us to even have a prayer, so this bears out Carbon's gambit to skip Literacy and head right for Monarchy. That is going to pay off for us handsomely, I think. We are sure to get the Hanging Gardens in Washington as long as we don't trade Polytheism or Monarchy under any circumstances. Got Philosophy from the hut.

Middle turns: my backtrack pays off as I find a hut in the black region in No Mans Land (henceforth, NML), it gives us 50 gold. Founded Buffalo on the coast, Houston on the river, whipped some temples, and churned out a worker per turn from Washington (knowing it was pointless to start another wonder there at the moment). I set some of the workers to start in on bringing irrigation out to Buffalo, set one to building road toward Miami, sent one south to help build roads down there, and set one to building road in preparation for the next settler, to be founded ON the iron west of Boston. As Charis found out, this location is not landlocked, and it's our next priority. The iron is on the river and also on the sea, so it's perfect, and the road there is already complete, so that worker can do some irrigation and roads over there.

Late turns: whipped barracks in New York and Philly: we are in DESPERATE need of some military in the south, and it's almost invariably better for expansion to let new cities whip temples asap while older cities with barracks crank out vet spearmen to garrison the new colonies, in between building more settlers. I also established more embassies (especially with the Romans, who were down to annoyed but are now back to polite). Then I paid cash for everyone's territory map (not much, about 10-20 per civ) to get that info on the table, and especially to find out what India was doing. Apparently, their priority has been set exclusively to battling the French for grabbing land between them, as India has settled low-yield new towns in the tundra to their south, and not settled a single new town in our direction during my turn. That will change eventually, but we do have Purple Dot City established, and also blue dot.


Analysis: Now that our entire northern border has been established and all but one of our desired locations up there settled (the Romans grabbed one at Hispalis), it is time to turn our focus to expansion in the south, and let the northern cities, supported by Boston, do their own consolidating up north. Boston is building one more settler, for the iron city to its west, then it needs to crank spearmen and swordsmen (no need to whip) to strengthen our garrisons and deter the Romans. Rome has one warrior wandering around IN our lands, but he has been careful to avoid infringing on our territory, so I don't expect any trouble from him. Rome is notoriously slow at building culture, especially in its distant, corrupt colonies, so if we whip temples on the fronts lines, and build vet units at Boston (which itself needs a spearman, since it DOES have luxuries - don't tempt the AI to attack by ignoring Boston garrison), we should have the stronger position up there. They do not yet have wheel or iron working, so we know they haven't been stockpiling dangerous units as yet and won't be in a position to attack in the near future. I think.

Down south, we are totally vulnerable. If there had been barbarians on this map, I'd have had to build units down there sooner. Our new colonies are sitting empty, preparing to whip temples and waiting for vet spearmen from the cities with barracks. Now that we have Pyramids, our growth curve will shoot up! We can't afford to whip any one city too much -- there's no need, and more than a few whippings at this point will linger in effect for too long -- but we can afford to whip a temple in each town, a barracks here or there, and a courthouse, especially in Chicago, San Fran, and Seattle. We are not going to have the whip for much longer, as I believe we should switch to Monarchy as soon as we get it, or shortly after, and build the Colossus in Atlanta, which will probably kick off a Golden Age for us, which once we are out of Despotism is a GOOD thing, even this early, because we aren't going to get the GL, and we're going to want to race ahead to Education ASAP to cancel it out, grab Sistine and Bach (as well as Gardens) and own all the big happiness wonders to BOOST OUR SCORE, which after all is the point of this game, to expand and score big over time.

Why colossus in Atlanta? Every civ now building any kind of wonder is doing so in landlocked cities. Every last one. So not one of those will cascade to Colossus/Lighthouse. French will get the Great Library, then someone will probably get Oracle the following turn, then the cascade will end. Only a couple of civs even have a decent coastline city at all. Atlanta, with irrigation on the way, a whipped temple soon, and then two wheat, whale and some forests, should be able to get the Colossus, but only if we all team up to make it happen. We can let Monarchy come at min science, but then we need to have some libraries and cash reserve in place by then and go high science to speed ahead to the middle age. Ignore Republic (we'll trade for it later, once everyone has it) and rely on a golden age to boost our science rate for a while, enough to keep Washington building wonders one after another while the other towns crank expansion items: troops, workers, settlers, and in new colonies, infrastructure.

If we get a golden age, immediately rush-buy a courthouse in Chicago if it doesn't have one yet, then start it on the Forbidden Palace, to get max output toward that from the Golden Age bonus. Chicago's whole output could be bent toward getting the FP as soon as possible, and for that, it needs to build a temple and a courthouse first, then the Palace, while being supported by military and workers sent forward from other cities. And of course there are the AI's to deal with, so don't take any undue chances, but keep wonder-building cities focused and use the other cities to support them. Right now is a good time for Washington to catch up on temple and library. It should not be used to build settlers, since we want it larger to get the next wonder sooner (I know I used it for workers, but we really NEEDED the workers and there was nowhere else.)


Schnarrd: I would like for Charis to remain after me in the turn order, so I plan to keep things as: Sirian, Charis, Carbon, Schnarrd, for the long term. However, you did your miss your turn this time, and I don't want to give you two turns this round, so you can have your choice: take your turn from this round now (and be skipped on your normal turn this round), or wait until your normal turn. Whichever you prefer.

So it will either go:

Schnarrd
Charis
Carbon

or:

Charis
Carbon
Schnarrd

...for the rest of this round. Whichever you choose, Schnarrd. Then we're back to normal turns on the third round.

Schnarrd: post to let us know which you choose, and good luck if you are taking your turn next.


- Sirian

 

[Schnarrd]

I've downloaded the game and hopefully will post later tonight.

 

[Schnarrd]

After the sudden retirement of Sirian, interim ruler after the Milquetoasty debacle (no offense to Toasty if you’re out there ) the great country of America was left in chaos as Siran’s advisors pondered who should its next ruler. They determined that a weak ruler should be chosen so that the throne could be controlled by the advisors (a course of action that would be repeated many times in history). To that end, they chose Schnarrenberger, who was first discovered chewing grass among the cow herds that frequented San Francisco. Soon after ascending the throne, Schnarrenberger encountered his first crisis: his name was unpronounceable and so long that it took a full stone tablet to write in full. Thenceforward, for the ease of communication and to ease the cramped hands of the scribes, Schnarrenberger’s advisors nicknamed Schnarrenberger Schnarrd.

Schnarrd’s rule was a quiet one, his only major decision during his rule being to shorten his name to a more reasonable length. He developed a reputation for being an oddball, however, since the only words people heard him speak were variations of “Moo.” he was often found drooling and defecating in various cow herds throughout the country. For this reason, perhaps his death was fitting: an experiment with catapults went awry, flinging a cow high into the air, through Schnarrd’s bedroom window, and on to Schnarrd just as he was getting dressed. As a side note, groups of Schnarrd's advisors were later found eating sandwhiches they called "bergers." When asked what they were made of and where they got the ingredients for the "bergers," they simply cackled evilly.

 

[Schnarrd]

Well, I didn't have to do much this go-round (10 turns go so fast!). I whipped a temples in the border cities and bulked up the military, but I did not build any swordsmen, only spearmen. Late into my reign I discovered that just about all the civilizations had Polytheism - the only civ lacking it was the English. Therefore, I brokered Polytheism and 40 gold to the English for Code of Laws and Mathematics. Also, the only new city I founded was the iron city, but a settler is heading south with more being built. The only other thing that I should mention is that Atlanta is building a courthouse so that corruption will be less when the Colossus is built.

 

[Charis]

With the rapid onslaught of polytheism, the minds of the people
once again turned to spiritual matters, and Deacon Charis II came
to power. He often spoke forcefully about "living our lives to please
the King, who is our wisdom and strength." This was interpretted by
his advisors as a need to investigate the Monarchy form of goverment,
and to move toward this new way... He began by a review of history,
and read what the prophets had to say. In summary, they foretold:

- Atlanta will be a great city. Treat it right and let it discover the
joys of the Colossus someday.
- The so called 'Great' Library is inferior to Education, and people
thinking for themselves.
- The people of Washington desire the beauty of Gardens, preferably Hanging.
(Longer term, Sistine and Bach, available with Theology and Music Theory)
- Encourage the people towards sacrifice for the good of the country,
as that will not be possible under a king.
- Be careful not to let Boston fall to terrorists.
- The people want to build a Forbidden Palace in Chicago, maybe we should ;p

He then reviewed the state of the Union after the great Bovine king,
Schnard (who does remind me much of a certain Lemming in his writing style )

- He finds odd the apparently rushed granary in Chicago, until an advisor
reminds him we have built the Pyramids!
- The wall production in Houston seems odd. The deacon is unfamiliar with
the effectiveness of walls.
- Charis II is also somewhat surprised by the courthouses being built when
there is land yet to be grabbed! Twelve cities, and only one settler in
production. As he looks more closely at each city, there is in fact no
extra place that can afford a settler at the moment. At least one settler
is moving in the field near Seattle.
- He notes the luxury rate is one higher than it needs to be an lowers it,
but promises to keep a close eye on it.

The good deacon expected but a short reign, so set about with these priorities.

* Meet the religious needs of the people, every city with a temple.
(Houston is switched off walls and temple rush planned)
* Continue infrastructure and plant seeds for expansion by next ruler.

550 BC (0) - Tweak a few settings, but all seems ok. Chicago finishes
its temple, and for this alone, the people cheer and want to build
his Palace! (But, but... I've just started!) Grounds and steps built.
Also, Athens of Greece has finished the Oracle (which has one of the
shortest lifespans of any wonder, iirc) Russians and Japanese switch to GL.

530 BC (1) - A Spearman and warrior are seen to come out of Pisae, yet no
Settler. Where are they going, and why? Puts Boston to making a Swordsmen,
for the Deacon knows that the Sword is sharp, able to divide bone and
marrow, and to penetrate the hearts of men!

510 BC (2) - Wash finishes library, starts placeholder for Hanging Gardens.
SF and Miami expand borders and English join the losing GL race. Huh wait,
French shift to Great Lighthouse. (Both likely due soon by some country)
Luxury to 10% to keep DC and NY fully working. Folks seem to be dead on
par with us in Tech, but have no contact with Romans. I hope GL's both
finish and end cascade before they get Monarchy and can switch to gardens.
Rome is still polite and WAY behind on tech, lacking even the means to bury
their own dead! Everyone is polite, excellent for a builder game ;p

490 BC (3) - Philly finishes spearman and thinks about Swordsmen (6 vs 4 turns,
same defense, triple offense), but decides on a Settler first. Miami is
set to be our Worker factory it looks like, taking 4 turns to grow and 5 to
produce worker. An Indian warrior is on his way up to scout. Some micromanage
of worker locations works nicely in cities like NY on this turn.
Seattle now 38 shields from temple, and the people are whipped into a
fervor that lets them finish in one turn. Houston is 39 away, and is
whipped for a temple.

470 BC (4) - NY completes Settler and starts another. Houston as our front
line city, starts a barracks. The French complete the Great Library at
Paris. Deacon notes Boston has no temple and doesnt like idea of a border gap
due to that, so he changes production. Deacon is half tempted to send the new
NY Settler up north to close that gaping large one open spot toward Rome, but
decides we're too behind in the South to do that. With Chicago as FP, we
want to have a line at Chicago or just beyond. Going past that would be
overreaching and India will beat us there or beat us down.

450 BC (5) - Chicago expands boundaries, starts Courthouse. (I'm confused
thought... the civolopedia says Courthouse reduces Corruption, but NOT
waste. Ie, gold loss, not shield loss.) Moves a worker in St.Louis,
and notes the City Governor was set (!!!) *WE* are the city governor!
Do not let mere AI handle this vital task in a builder game!

430 BC (6) - The Indians are building the Colossus. Drats. Atlanta is now
size 4, producing 4 or 5 shields, and 43 turns from Colossus. The Courthouse
would give at best one extra commerce and no shields. Now is the time
to switch to Colossus, decides Charis II. Houston whips a Barracks, with
end of whipping days coming soon, and St.Louis it's temple does whip.

* Test * Opens up RBD2 game with Tokogawa. In Matsuyama, size 7 with a
courthouse, commerce is 12(8+4corrupt) shields are 11(3 waste). Zero growth
four happy citizens, 3 content. I sell the courthouse (for a paltry 10 gold),
and next turn, rates are then: 12(6+6corrupt), shields are 11(4waste).
Ah, despite civopedia comments, waste (shields) is affected. Two other
tests. Lets see effect of courthouse on 'miserable' city with all but
one shield wasted. Salamanca was wasting 11 of its 12 shields and 15 of 16
commerce. It had no courthouse - one was rushed and rates were completely
unchanged. (Which means that it's mods are before caps, and waste and
corruption are so bad they would be negative if not for min-1 rule.)
What about WLTKD? Matsu alread had it going and was too happy to stop.
Shimonoseki was wasting 1 of 6 shields and 5 of 16 commerce. Inducing WLTK
there had no effect, even after several turns. (Then again waste was minimal
to start.) Our situation has San Francisco in minimal waste. We could get
zero or one shield, zero or one gold, and would 'lose' shields produced
toward Courthouse in the race for Colossus. He stands with the wonder shift.
(The deciding factor is that the 2 citizen whip needed for courthouse
would take some time to regrow population for same shield growth)

410 BC (7) - French want an audience to swap territory maps. I give her a
gold piece instead. St.Louis starts a worker. About to hit Monarchy,
what's left to whip? The harbor in Buffalo is about it.

390 BC (8) - We learn Monarchy, but put off going there one turn to whip
the Buffalo harbor, now needing just under 40 shields. Choose Currency,
although Construction was considered too. (Skipping republic) Washington
switches to Hanging Gardens, due in 22 (meaning we're likely to get it)
Boston is micromanaged to get temple in 2 turns. Settler in Chicago heads
East, to start on a "line of 4" from coast to coast, to form and seal our
border with India. Alas, can't see which spot yet, but there's a mix of
country and hoping for something useful. A spearman is just ahead a step
or two, to scout.

After cracking the whip the shields appear, so we leave Despotism behind us!
The Deacon is proud to see a temple in every city (except Boston, done in 2
turns and Buffalo, queued next)

370 BC (9) - Anarchy.

350 BC (10) - Anarchy. Note, the Settler and Spearman to the SW of Seattle
have NOT moved! The Indian warrior near us is trying to hide an Ivory
square! We're on the hill I intended to found the city on, which is
better defense, has ivory in square, and is near but not on a river.
With that city down, and one more east on river about 2-3 squares, we'll have
a solid wall of four cities as our Southern border. With one more squeezed
in south of Chicago, whereever we can fit it, it will produce nicely due
to proximity of Forbidden Palace there (someday). Our next leader might
well prefer to move ONE square NW, now on the coast, and overlapping
less. Or go one square East if you want to try to seal the border with
only 3 cities instead of 4 (I don't like that option as much).

The second southern settler is also un-moved for turn. He was going to
step next to Spearman. Together they could scout the hills close
to Chicago, or go for the forest square on the coast which is a Knight's
move to TWO gold and the Plains Cattle (yum). OR... you could backtrack
for a more consolidated border by snagging the Whale-capable square in
the jungle, NE of Chicago.

Other notes, besides key point on settler, above. Our workers almost have
the road to Chicago finished. Likewise Miami is almost connected, for our
last unconnected city (besides two new ones about to appear). We're also
looking to get a second path to Houston as our point city. Another worker from
Seattle has started a road to the west as well. Anarchy should end in about
three turns (?). You'll have massive reshifting of workers when that happens,
with so current income and entertainers all over the place. When Atlanta snaps
out of Anarchy, the benefits of Monarchy should lead it and Washington to need
nicely fewer turns to finish!

Good luck, should be a fun turn next! (Especially since you have two settlers yet to move in 350 BC)
Charis

 

[Carbon_Copy]

Out of the chaos there rode a large man upon a mule with squinty eyes and a harsh Bostonian accent. Astride his lowly beast of burden, he plodded into the vacant palace in Washington and made a declaration:

"I am Theodore C. Roosevelt, and I am going to be your king."

When asked what the "C." stood for, the only reply he would ever give was "Your Majesty".

He was never known as a terribly literate man, and his reign was all too brief to judge his performance as a leader, but he was the best there was to be had at that time. Upon assuming the throne he surveyed the production of his lands left untended during the long period of anarchy. He reassigned some squares in some towns but nothing major was changed (which indeed the next ruler should change as he forgot to take most towns off of max food, being rather fond of eating, himself). His most notable reassignment was to arrest a wandering troupe of minstrels, and after declaring there to be "No Molly-coddling about" he placed them in forced labor in the gold mines outside of washington, cutting the construction time on Deacon Charis's Hanging Gardens nearly in half.

There were two cities founded during his reign, one at opposite coasts along the southern region. Fort New Orleans was constructed upon the Eastern shore, upon rather poor lands, placed primarily to seal the eastern border against Indian incursions. The site was also chosen for its access to no fewer than three prime city-building sites without interrupting their eventual growth. In the West, Detroit was founded on the hill upon which King Roosevelt had found him loitering. It also so happened that it had access to three prime city building spots without overlap, as well. This delighted the King to no end, and he spent many late nights in the royal chambers planning the placement of future American cities.

His joyousness was disturbed almost as soon as it began when news from Buffalo arrived: Those unwashed backwater hicks, the Romans, figured out how to fit their smelly bodies into boats without the stench killing themselves, and this reeking vessel of theirs was staggering down America's eastern seaboard, wilting crops as it passed. He sent an envoy to the Romans to check upon their technological situation. He was quite surprised that they had managed to acquire naval skills without first figuring out how to write or even bury their own dead, much less bathe. This development with the Romans disturbed him, but there was little to do about it as the American Navy was completely nonexistant, not even a toothpick to its name.

Roosevelt asked his surly and cryptic advisor, William Jennings Bryan, about the best course to take with the Romans, and received the impassioned response, "You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold!" This, of course, made absolutely no sense and was of no help at all, and Mr. Bryan was led away to the Washington Gold Mines, where he spent the rest of his days toiling underground and grumbling about the unfairness of what he called "the gold standard."

In plainspeak:

-Founded New Orleans on the east coast, Detroit on the west coast. Both started on temples.

-Hanging Gardens are under 20 turns to completion, IIRC

-Road completed to Chicago

-The Romans are starting to get uppity. Something will need to be done, but what that will be shall be up to Sirian. We will probably have to introduce them to the world now. They MIGHT also settle in the free jungle squares upon our east coast between New Orleans and whatever city is north of New Orleans on the east coast. this would be a bad thing. The good news is that the Romans are pathetic, culturally. They don't even have ceremonial burial, much less temples.

-Two settlers that Charis started were produced and sent towards Chicago. Two more settlers were being trained to follow them.

-Establishing our next (final?) line of cities is going to be critical. There are a few very good settling squares that the spearman uncovered (i sent him to scout south rather than lead the way to New Orleans, which is still ungarrisoned). I will try to make a dotted map to show my plan for settlement. The one that I think is most critical is under the spearman to the south of Chicago, with a plains wheat on a river, followed by the ones to its east and west (one grabs a coastline/river with plains cow, the other another ivory or two).
-Currency is 7 turns out, we're running at a very modest deficit (-single digits, varies on the turn) for our treasury (~600).

-Ten turns in this game seemed like two turns. 10 turns in the LK8 game (just started the Industrial age) seem like 50 turns.

-Now that we can't fully contain the Romans anymore, once we consolidate to our south we might want to build military and wax the Romans before we start seeing Legionaries and Horsemen. In any case, we'll want to build lots of military, we're as thin as paper, with some holes punched in it.

 

[Carbon_Copy]

1) San Fran and Atlanta need to be reworked so their production isn't totally ******** like it was when I played

2)Rome: Somehow they managed to slip past us and trade up to tech parity. I don't think their stinking barge has gone past our ports, so I'm at a loss as to why they are where they are It's possible that I missed a boat, but I don't remember seeing one until after we came out of anarchy (4 turns in), because I remember seeing their techs that they haven't discovered in the diplomacy window , and they had nothing. I check on turn 10, and they've got everything we have except for Monarchy, plus construction.

3) Dot map: here's the legend:

Black: cities that were founded before my turn + their city areas

Magenta: Cities that I founded on my turn (New Orleans and Detroit) plus their eventual city areas once their borders expand.

Green: Highest (IMO) priority spot. zero overlap with chicago, sits on a river (kinda hard to see zoomed out), and adjacent to a grassland wheat.

White: Actually, that's not the best spot. The best spot is 1 southwest of it, then it places more pressure on the Indian town, claims both ivories, is still on the river, but on top of the hill. Second priority behind the Green dot. If we can get those two, we'll have a buffer around Chicago with pretty high-production towns.

Orange: Should be shifted 1 sw also, not much changes except it goes onto the coast and trades some plains for sea. Tertiary priority with the yellow dot.

Yellow: Claims a sea/river spot, plus the plains cow. Tertiary priority along with the Orange dot

Turquoise: Possible sites for filling out our southern holdings. The land isn't all that great, but we might as well build them. The eastern one has one square of overlap with Seattle (but access to the whale), the western one fits pretty snugly.

 

[Schnarrd]

I opened the save from Carbon Copy's reign and wow! You weren't kidding about the paper-thin military! It's more like as thin as a runway fashion model! The next ruler might want to change one our cities with barracks to pumping out spearmen. Also, I noticed Atlanta, which is building the Colossus, could be micro'd to drastically reduce the amount of time required to build the Colossus, seeing as how it is at size 6 and cannot grow beyond size 6 until construction (no fresh water). Other than that, I think we're going to beat the Indians to the next line of cities. Too bad about the Romans, but bound to happen at some point.

Charis: City governor? All I can say is, I never use it in my games. Not sure about the rushed granary, either. I was building the city walls because I was afraid of a Roman onslaught, because they are useful before you get aquaducts. Looking back on it though, it was a somewhat weedy decision because there were no signs of a Roman buildup. All in all, I commit my share of weed-induced decisions.

 

[Charis]

Well what a crock that is -- those stinky pests getting Tech parity?!! What did they pay with? I thought they were fully backward, but perhaps the price on ancient techs is fairly low and/or they managed to scrape up some cash.

Good choices for the fort and Detroit, and excellent proposed sites. I'm not sure if we'll get them, being so close to India, but if we do... Chicago is truly a hub in its own right for the forbidden palace, the center of a cluster of cities. If we get those two, and if India doesn't start a fight, instead concentrating their efforts East, we're golden!

Alas, the worst case scenario is not pretty. Rome found a city between Buffalo and New Orleans, requires/declares war, and allies with India.

The middle scenario is palatable, but close. With two settlers for the dot, one for buffalo-newOrleans zone, and one "in the gap" of unclaimed space next to Rome, we're done with settler production. With infrastructure in good shape (temples everywhere, a courthouse or two and a harbor) we can then go max military, and if Rome or India dally, we can become something more than the continent's whipping boy With no military soon, I can see the threats increasing, and someone like militaristic Toko coming after us, and Rome becoming brazen.
The other nice part of the middle scenario is the finishing of the Hanging Gardens and Colossus. (That in-the-gap town would be in horrible territory, pure unadulterated plains, but it would be a sacrificial lamb that gives us time between a Roman declaration of war, and mobilization of troops to defend San Fran, Atlanta, Houston and Miami.

The game is shaping up nicely, should be a very fun next couple of turns.
Charis

PS to Schnaard, no rushed granary, that was a misintepretation seeing the granary when in fact it was a virtual granary due to having Pyramids

 

[Schnarrd]

Actually, I'm not surprised about the Romans getting tech parity. In one of my games as the Persians, the Zulu were on an isolated continent until Astronomy. While everyone else was close to the industrial age, they were just beginning with the Renaissance technologies. As soon as one of the AI's discovered them, they were on a par with everyone else in terms of technology. Sometimes I wonder if the AI's conspire with each other against the human player.

PS to Charis: Yeah, I make the same mistake sometimes. Also, who is Lemming?

 

[Sirian]

Plans seldom survive contact with the enemy.

On my first turn, I saw an Indian settlement pair move up into the space south of Chicago, definitely on pace to beat our settler there. I took a bold move and sent the spearman from Chicago out across the river to help secure the location. I had to do QUITE the shuffle and dance with our spearmen to blockade the Indians, but I pulled it off. Our early delay in getting started in the south has come back to haunt us a little, in that we have lost control of some of the lands, but I did the best I could with it and managed to get the most valuable of the remaining lands (barely), and possibly even all of the ivory. I'd rushbuild temple and library in Pittsburgh if I wasn't sure we'd need the cash for more urgent things.

Here's a shot of the situation in the south at the end of my turn:

 

[Sirian]

All kinds of plans have gone awry. The first came when the Roman archer slipped past us, when Charis opted to found at Atlanta instead of Buffalo. That archer is why the Romans got to tech parity. I thought everyone on the team realized this? Maybe not. We could have done better to trade the Romans everything right before they would make contact, and I would have to start my turn if it hadn't already happened, but it was anyone's guess as to how long that would be. It's not the worst thing that they were kept in the dark for so long, and realize they would have paid bottom dollar for everything, maybe 100ish gold tops. The total lack of ceremonial burial for them earlier has left them hopelessly bereft of culture. Not a single one of their towns has expanded borders as yet, not even Veii, though some of their inner cities probably will soon. The Roman archer is on a return trip now and has just passed through the New Orleans area.

Since the Romans are out of the bag, there was no more need to keep our world map secret. Also, the Japanese had discovered Monarchy, and the GL gave it to the French, so there was little use in holding on to it from the other Civs. On the inherited turn, I established our last embassy, with the Greeks, and saw that they were just starting on the Great Wall. With just Currency to go until the Middle Ages, I realized that we had better build the Great Wall ourselves, or else the cascade is going to cost us Sistine Chapel. I changed Boston to the Great Wall and told our northern lands to fend for themselves for a while. I also changed Atlanta to speed up the Colossus. I set Miami to build walls -- it not being on a river, and us getting the Great Wall, it will be worthwhile to build walls in our frontier cities, at least the ones that need aquducts or those with really bad food production. Some of the ones on rivers can get to size 7 (same effect as walls) quickly enough not to benefit from walls. We'll be beelining to Music Theory (Theology, Education), so arrival of pikes will be delayed, thus the walls make more sense yet, with some our towns being too widely scattered to rely on quick reinforcements.

I traded World Map to everyone for all I could get, including their world maps, one greek worker, and traded Monarchy to everyone who didn't yet have it for all I could get. See, here's the thing about tech development. The first civ to acquire a tech has to pay a STEEP price. The second civ also pays a high price (in cash, or beakers). Each civ after that pays less and less and less, so that even the most pathetic civs can catch up on the cheap. The system is designed to promote parity, and though I have some grumbles about it, it does prevent the massacre of any one civ being hopelessly stuck in the dark ages. Also, if the AI's have X amount of research toward the tech, and trades take place that reduce the cost below X, they get the breakthrough automatically. The player does not, in the same situation, but can buy the tech for 1 gold from any civ that has it. (Found that out in an Emperor game where I didn't reach the top of the food chain until Theory of Evolution). The civs that were behind on Monarchy weren't going to speed up Japan's next discovery by getting caught up, so I brokered.

I also decided then and there to broker Currency to the whole world when we got it. Three reasons: 1) to get the two science civs into the middle age, let them get their free Monotheism, buy it from them and jump right to research on Theology. (Let's get this party started!). 2) Brokering immediately is the time to do it, if at all: when you can get 2nd-civ value from the highest bidder, and work the way down through the food chain. Getting their gold can speed us up, and slow them down. But the real kicker is, the very same gold they collectively pay us will go to buying us Monotheism, thus actually FURTHERING us in this one unique situation, and leaving all the other civs too broke to buy Monotheism for themselves from the science cultures. 3) The sooner to Education, the less benefit to the French. Why should we be researching Monotheism at max cost, when we could buy it at 4th-civ cost (after the science cultures get it, and the French get it from the Library). Every tech the French do not get for free is to our benefit. Thus I maxed our science rate on Currency.

I also set New York and Philly to building military, and that's all they built for my whole turn. I then rushbuilt the courthouse at Chicago for cash, and figured I was ready to play my first turn.


230BC: Had to run an entertainer at San Fran. Disbanded our scout in England: I had traded for everyone's world map, and there was nothing left over there to scout. There is a second No Man's Land north of England, which if there is anything left to it down the road, we should grab some of that for ourselves once we have ships that can cross ocean.

In my test games, the No Mans Land areas have been closer to my homeland, thus more room to expand and more colonies to contest over. Not this game. At the arrival of AD, our lands are nearly filled. So it goes.

I sent our scout and tribal warrior above Japan toward the horsies in that area, with the intention of planting root there and denying the location to Japan as long as possible.

I woke our final scout, which was doing nothing but spying on Roman women bathing in the river, to play a "full court press" against Roman settler pairs now moving into our territory (on their way south, presumably, to some of our unclaimed jungles). The scout was ordered to stand directly below the foremost settler pair to prevent them from moving down each turn. They can move southeast, or southwest, but not south, and this should slow them a little.

210BC: Construction begins on the Forbidden Palace. :love2:

Washington grows to size 11. Time to increase luxury to 20%. I shift DC from high food to max shields and shave a turn off the Gardens, and open a flood plain for Boston, which is shifted now to high food while it waits on its temple to expand and its hills to be mined. Dancing with the devil in the pale moonlight south of Chicago, rushing settlers and troops to the area and DESPERATE to stop the Indians from seizing this spot. I barely, and I mean barely, managed it. If you want to see how bad it was, go ahead and reply a few turns from the last save and see for yourself. Geeze.

190BC: New York builds our first, and only, swordsman. He is sent south with the order to "Guard Chicago at any cost." I shuffled New York around to max shields (10 per) and started cranking spears every other turn. I urge this course of activity be continued until such time as the sun itself falls from the sky and burns out, never to rise again. (We are desperate for military, this city can't do wonders, it's now too large to waste on settlers, and it's got the perfectly efficient 10 shields per turn going, so it's cranking them out at almost a fast enough rate to keep up with the demand). It can make swords or spears as the situation warrants.

I realized Buffalo still had no troops, and was on high food with its temple expected... never. So I swapped to some hills and set a worker to chop that forest and open up the last plains spot.

Sweatin bullets in the south with the dance down there. (Oh wait, bullets haven't been invented yet. Sweating arrows, then! Heh).

170BC: Has deodorant been invented yet? No? Well then don't get downwind of me, this is simply TENSE. If this kind of shenanigans were taking place in real life, it might provoke a war.

Japanese settler pair shakes fists at our scout and warrior, then heads north toward the dyes. We should keep these guys here, I think, as I expected the AI to settle in a less optimal spot on the river, but it abandoned the area entirely! If we move, I bet the speed with which he jumps in there would spin heads.

150BC: Syracuse appears as a blight on our land. Guess we found out where the Romans were headed with that ship. I'll bet a dollar to a donut that there's either rubber or coal over there, as they passed plenty of good jungle before landing where they did. The AI is KNOWN to beeline right to future sites of resources. (Ain't that just too convenient? Heh). But no worries. That is a guaranteed flip to us, eventually, IF we squeeze its borders just a little. The best news is, Romans are totally sad on building culture. That one may even become ours sooner rather than later. And the worst case is, we simply take it from them if push comes to shove.

More bad news, Indian galley sails past Detroit. Expect another blight in our back lines soon. Everyone and their sister starts the Great Wall and the Hanging Gardens. I sent a spear to Atlanta, and sent its warrior on to San Fran (to help quell unrest).

130BC: Baltimore founded! Yes! VICTORY! This has to be one of my greatest Civ3 accomplishments ever. (I kid you not). I felt like I'd been put through a torturous eye-popping brain-fuzing chess problem.

Currency researched! I brokered to Japan first (16 gpt! plus cash), then to India, then Rome, then FRANCE (Huh? Guess the library doesn't kick in on the same turn, and what kind of weed were they smoking buying this tech when they'd have gotten it for free anyway???), then the rest for pennies. Traded SILKS (!!!) and 280ish gold to Russia for Monotheism. (This is why you build a harbor SOMEWHERE, early on -- in this case at Buffalo, and kudos to all for not swapping off of that choice even though I didn't explain my early trade ambitions). Set research to max (80%, 20% Lux) and still running 26 per turn surplus income. Theology due in 14 turns.

110BC: Indian settler from Baltimore heads east, likely to grab the cattle south of New Orleans. Don't think we can get anything more over there. New York keeps a spear it built for its own defense (and we should upgrade defenders in Washington, Boston, and Philly soonish. Maybe not immediately but certainly before the end of Charis's turn). Scout impeding Romans is having some success. They have been delayed at least a turn or two, and the one from the back is catching up. If I had any more units AT ALL to spare, I'd add them to this effort. But I don't.

90BC: Settlers move into our next desired locations, west of Chicago. More Indians settlers, and some French units, threatening the area, so once again got there JUST in time.

70BC: Founded Pittsburgh and Denver on river spots. Denver has some overlap, but that's the best I could do. We simply COULD NOT leave that area empty, so close to the FP. Rule of thumb is, barring some compelling reason, city closer to the capital (or FP) gets the overlap, so Detroit will likely give way more or all of that overlap to Denver, while Denver concedes to Chicago. Not a real problem until Sanitation anyway, though. Pittsburgh will need a swrdsman by the end of Charis's turn or expect India to attack it. I kid you not, get some units down there and build walls. More units in Chicago are also warranted, and another one at Detroit. Any city with a resource, at least two defenders. (Philly, too, but it's far enough in the back to wait a bit. Also Boston. Don't wait on Boston, let it build itself a spear when the Wall finishes).

FINALLY built a garrison troop for Buffalo, and sent it on its way. Sent a troop toward Denver, also, due to arrive in 30BC.

50BC: Founded Harper's Ferry. New Bombay appears as a blight on our land, and in a skanky location, too. New Madras also appears. Our border now seems fixed.


To be continued...

 

[Sirian]

We might squeeze one more overlapped city onto the river west of Detroit, and one between Baltimore and New Orleans -- or maybe even south of New Orleans, but don't count on it.

There are still some jungle lands left to settle. We have a settler due on the next turn in St. Louis, and one due eventually in Seattle. Miami is due for a barracks and can crank some troops. San Fran is due for courthouse, and it should build barracks and crank troops, as it is fairly well exposed. Atlanta could forego the barracks and build some catapults, after its wonder. We are going to suffer for lack of horses, yet no sense paying through the nose for horses. Build swords, spears, pikes, catapults.

I didn't build a single worker. We will need some more soon, but our military situation and land grabs in the south took all the attention there, and the north was all about world wonders. We WILL get all three wonders we are building, all due on Charis's turn, and sure to kick off our Golden Age in there. It is from this that we will open our permanent tech lead, or so it should be, so get stingy with brokering from there on out. We SHOULD be able to build Sistine in Washington and Bach's in Boston, and the Golden Age will speed us to Education and Music Theory, and hurry along our Forbidden Palace, which has gotten a solid early start. (Helps a lot having cash to buy that courthouse. The early move to Monarchy was a real winner this time out, in light of our zero chance to get the Great Library, as normally to rushbuild the courthouse in a distant FP-city, you have to whip two or even three pop).

Considering just how many shields it takes to build middle age wonders, a Palace placeholder, pending Music Theory, would be the safest plan for Boston (just make sure it has enough military). Don't hesitate. Early civ gets the worm.

As for the two blights, and the southbound Romans, the scout might slow them another turn or three, just keep moving him into their way. What are they going to do about it? Nothing.

Referring back to my last post and the screenshot, New Bombay is in such a crap-jack location, it ought to be ignored. Build on the white dots, putting the squeeze on them, and we'll probably flip the thing (and eventually use it as a permanent size 6 city, for workers, settlers, or drafting). If it refuses to flip, raze it if you capture it in some war at some point.

Syracuse is in a good location, one of our dots. Unfortunately, that means less flip pressure on it. I just hope it stays at no culture and flips soon. Green Dot would be the place to settle to pressure Syracuse. Red Dot is likely going to be lost to the Romans. I urge Yellow Dot as the top priority, both for its own sake, and because it will force a layout that will put pressure on the Romans no matter where in the region they decide to plop down. The settler from St. Louis ought to be able to make it to Yellow Dot before the Romans, if the scout continues to run interference.

Alternatively, the settler at Seattle could be rushed. This might even be a good idea, with the Romans marching through, but keep in mind, if they can't grab land near us, they'll just keep going anyway, ending up eventually at the No Man's Land. Still, it better for us in terms of score and long term city potential, to found the cities ourselves instead of waiting for centuries for one to flip to us. I wish Charis good luck in sorting out what to do about this situation.

The knob to the west of Washington should be grabbed, too, eventually. The Romans have shown a total disinterest in the barren patch that is unclaimed between our two empires, so Charis need not rush to grab it. We can claim that dry baked location any time we please. Because of pressure on Hispalis, I look for it to flip to us before 500AD. Could be wrong, but that's my guess.

The Lighthouse is going to be built by the French. No one else is even attempting it. It's good that the French are building it in a strong city, and not some colony which would allow endless cascade effect to linger for 1000 years, and every civ on the map to start on it and drag it on and on. Halting the cascade was the other reason I suggested Atlanta when I did. (It helped a lot having played this sort of game and run into the kinds of problems we might face).


Lots of stuff to do in games like this. Even ten turns, there was a ton to write about. The turns are going to start taking longer soon.

- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

Oh by the way... Carbon, your ten turns went by quickly because you only took five turns. Heh. I was looking at the math and realized that something was odd, as ten turns ought to end at 50AD, then 250AD, and then 10 years per game turn taking it to 350AD. I look back, add up the numbers, and see that you shortchanged yourself a bit there.

If I had realized before I played, I'd have sent it back to you for the other five, but too late now. If you like, you can play 15 next time you're up, or just go with it and write it off.

- Sirian

 

[Carbon_Copy]

Not really sorry I ended when I did, I definitely would have flubbed up Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Especially Baltimore, whenever I play as the Americans, I always seem to have trouble when the city names get around to Baltimore, they always meet with ignominious ends during the medieval or ancient periods. The mere fact that sometimes I will have several Baltimores during my reign speaks volumes for the trouble that town inevitably experiences whenever I (re)build it.

During my turn, I wasn't taking notes like I usually do, and just assumed that the years counted by ten. There were at least three turns of anarchy before Monarchy kicked in, but I am pretty sure I played more than two turns after that. I'm almost positive I did, because Washington was 24 turns away from the Hanging Gardens after I micromanaged, and 17 turns away when I left. 3 turns of Anarchy + 7 turns off the Gardens should equal 10, unless Washington grew during my reign and the extra laborer shaved off a big block of turns.

At least the Romans had the courtesy to build Syracuse on King Roosevelt's turquoise dot. But those silly Indians didn't follow the plan! New Bombay needs to be one space to the south !

 

[Zed-F]

I should mention that I believe France's GL will go obsolete when THEY get Education, not when YOU get it. I believe this is how it works for any wonder that goes obsolete.

In this case it probably won't make much difference since they can't get Education until a second civ researches it, so it won't affect your expected tech lead.

 

[Sirian]

No, wonders definitely go obsolete when any civ researches the applicable tech. It's always been that way, and if it weren't, then what? You could milk some of these wonders for much longer. The Great Library would be a guaranteed dozen techs, just delay researching Education. Some of these civs, in love with the Oracle, could avoid Theology forever and reap the benefits. No, it doesn't work that way. The poor French are destined for disappointment and heartbreak, as our education system dwarfs their piddly little library thingie.

- Sirian

 

[Carbon_Copy]

It might work that way, anyhow...and holding off on researching education wouldn't necessarily help, since all it takes is 2 people to discover Education before the GL holder would get it, and therefore obsolete itself (and I know that people have reported receiving Education from the GL before).