RBO OSG2 - The Klackon Menace

Zed-F said:
Some good results there, Justus!
Indeed.

Zed-F said:
As far as the next target goes, I think it will be a choice between the Psilons and the Silicoids. I'm not super-fond of trying to cozy up to an erratic, but the Silicoids have a lot of population and if we want to win a vote, we might consider reducing their voting block, plus they have an artifacts planet nearby that would be nice to have. OTOH, if we are in this for the long haul, then containing the Psilons might not be a bad idea either.
Generally it is good to go for the quick kills first and to smash Psilons sooner rather than later. Before they build fast fleets with Dissipators or develop potent missiles would be swell.

Geode is also more likely to play nice and not burden us with a second front.

I don't think we're going to lose the vote in 2425 nor win it even with Psilon support. So I would not worry about turning them against us through espionage or Scanning their fleet for Sporers or genociding the lizards for a free hand in the top corner. Do what feels right. There are many ways to win from here.

Selentine
 
Looking at the save, Toranor is a population 75 planet. That seems worth it to me, so it will be bye-bye Sakkra.

The psilons do not have class V planetary shields, and no missile technology. They have some very tempting technologies, so they are in line to be the next target.

There are some systems near the Sakkra that need to be scouted, so I will shuffle the scouts around.

Technology wise, Improved space scanner seems like it will be extra useful in a succession game. In the construction tree we are working on Industrial tech 6, but we may get that from invasions. In the force field tree we are researching Shield IV, but are about to pick that up from the Sakkra. Planetology has Controlled Radiated which lets us claim an ultra rich planet, and planetology is generally useful. Fusion Drives would be very nice, as they allow ships to move at speed 4 with an inertial stabilizer. Anti-matter bombs would let us crack planetary shields, and will be necessary eventually. I check the tech chart, and there is no missile technology at the next level. I guess we really are destined to be without missiles for a while.

2400 Reduce tech spending in Force fields and Contsruction to minimum levels. I scrap the Scout 1 design, as most of the planets they are guarding have bases now, and redirect some Scout 2’s to explore some systems.

I see that the Silicoids will trade Hyper-X rockets for Industrial Tech 7. Hyper-X doesn’t seem like enough of an upgrade considering the Silicoids are already leading the power graph and don't have better than Industrial Tech 9 right now.

The Sakkra attack with a huge ship. We can dance out of range of it’s neutron pellet guns, but it retreats before it is destroyed. Orion is just above the Sssla. Did we already know that? Imra is founded.

Sssla is taken with 2 colonists to spare! I choose repulsor beam over class V shields when we get Shields IV from the Sakkra, but that’s the only tech we capture.

Several planets max factory production.

2401 We need more troops in a big way. I set the rich planets to fill up the planetary reserves so other planets can grow faster. I start transferring colonists from Kholdan and Drakka, setting those planets to replace them the next turn.

2402 Increasing a planet’s production by around 50% using the reserves allows it to achieve the maximum increase in population. I do this for Vox, Willow, Sssla, and Escalon, and will for the next few turns as well.

2403 Our population increased by 120 this turn. :D Toranor is captured. Come on lucky Industrial Tech 6! Yes! New choices are Armored Exoskeleton, and Reduced Industrial Waste 40% I choose Zortrium Armor however. I like armor techs – they improve missile bases, huge auto repair ships, and ground combat all together.

Also, Trax is revealed to be a Toxic planet, and Draconis is a Radiated planet.

2404 More population shuffling. I switch 2 rich planets to build some more nukers and ion fighters in preparation for invading Primodius.

2405 Helos is now maxed out. The Psilons just got Planetry Shield V, so our bombers will have little effect. I will concentrate on our economy instead of invading.

2406 A virus strikes our weapons research labs, costing us 3900 research points. Well, it could have struck our ripening computer research.

2407 Darrian to the North is revealed to be a Barren Colony. I send a colony ship with reserve fuel tanks on it’s way.

2408 Improved Space Scanner is researched, and Robotic Controls IV is an option! I shift research efforts towards computers. A Mrsshan ship is heading to Darrian.

2409 The Mrsshan scout is chased off of Darrian. Finally I get a spying success against the Psilons. All fields are options. I choose Force fields with the hope of a planetary shield, but pick up Class V instead. I visit the Silicoid again and trade Class IV shields for Hyper-X rockets.

2410 All planets are maxed out, except Imra, which is close.

With the improved scanner I can see the Silicoid and Psilons are mixing it up. Neither seems to have much of a fleet. I kept the current levels of spending on bases, but our economy has grown, so we could build more.

Controlled Radiated is ripening and we will be able to claim some systems in the North once it comes in. A colony ship is already on its way to the Barren planet.
 

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Sounds good. It seems we now pretty much have to wait for antimatter bombs to come in before we do any more fleet construction.

Justus_II
Erick the Red
Patroclus <== UP NOW
Selentine <== On Deck
JMB
Zed
 
Taking over the game, I see we’ve wiped out the Sakkras, and have a nice pair of shoes and six matching pieces of luggage to show for it.

The Psilons have Class V Planetary Shields. Combined with their Class V Deflector Shields, we can barely hurt them with our Nukers. We are piling research into Robotic Controls IV, which the Psilons have, while our antimatter bombs languish. Furthermore, the psilons have NO MISSILE UPGRADES YET. Unfortunately, as much as I would like to jump on Primodius, we can’t because we don’t have Range 5 or above. The Silicoids won’t trade us the range tech, unfortunately, although the were willing to trade Planetary Shield for Class V Deflector Shield. (I go back to the diplo screen, and offer the Silicoids a bribe of 225 BC, but they still aren’t willing to trade us the range tech. Was worth a try.)

2410:
We should hit the psilons before our fleet becomes obsolete. I send our SoD to Drakka (same number of turns to reach Rha with the stop, and we can reevaluate things in 4 turns before we commit). I move most of what was going to computer tech into Weapons, and some into Propulsion.

2411:
Keep the production shuffle going into research.

IBT:
Scout Arietis up north, 25 toxic hostile.
Colonize Darrian, the Barren 40.
The Psilons declare war on us.
Imra maxes population and factories and starts on research.
The Psilons caught all our spies... Dang!

2412:
Transfer 24 colonists from Toranor to Darrian, set Toranor to recover pop in 2 turns.
Send a scout to the green planet in the upper corner.

2413:
Planetology, Propulsion and Weapons all show percents.

IBT:
Controlled Radiated comes in. I start research on Soil Enrichment.
Scout the green in the corner. Terran 75, unoccupied!
The Silicoids declare war on us too. Drat, there goes our trade deal. So much for my bribe!

2414:
The psilons have sent a fleet to the Toxic U-rich left of Talas, but won’t arrive for 5 turns.
I check tech: still no missile upgrades for the Psilons, so I send the SoD to Rha. They also are sending a few dozen medium ships to Rha, but nothing that should be able to stop our Glorious Hugeness.
I scrap the now-empty Colony designs and build a radiated base colony. I give it fuel tanks, because those are useful and cheap at this point (and I checked if this would fit in a medium ship, it doesn’t). Talas will build one for the toxic U-rich, and Sssla will build one for the barren in the corner next turn.
I have Firma build some Ion Fighters to defend the Toxic U-Rich; the psilons didn’t send much of an escort for their ships.

2415:
Toranor maxes out pop again.
OOPS :sad: I accidentally sent the Scout 2 from Drakka with the SoD, which makes it miss Rha this turn!
Our new colony ships are built and sent on their way.
Our SoD arrives next turn; the psilons will have about 22 medium ships there, and an unknown number of bases.

IBT: The alkaris kick our scout out of Arietis.
Rha: 21 bases, but they’re just Nuclear Missile Launchers. But our bombs aren’t quite enough to get through their shields; we lose about half of our Nukers, and take them down to 11 bases.
Antimatter Bombs come in, however! We have the choice of Neutron Pellet Gun, Hard Beam, Fusion Beam, Omega-V Bomb or Anti-Matter Torpedos. None of these are good; OmegaV and Torpedos would get us to the next rank of techs. I research Torpedos, but regret it.
Colonize Gorra the Toxic U-Rich planet.

2416:
Redirect our retreating Rha fleet back to Rha for another round.
Transfer pop from Laan to Gorra, and set Laan to eco to recover pop.
Drakka is about to be attacked by the Psilons, but I don’t think they have bombs.
I design a large ship with 5 antimatter bombs, our best defenses, and have Drakka build one next turn. This is an experiment on my part, to hopefully get through their defenses, may not work but worth a try.
Another psilon fleet will arrive next turn at Gorra; we’ll have about 140 Ion Fighters to meet them.
Spying on the psilons is currently very hard; since the silicoids are at war with us, I move some of the psilon spying over to them. They have range 7 and merculite missiles, yum...

IBT:
Our 11 bases pulverize the Psilon fleet at Drakka, they never fire a shot.
Rha: We run out of bombs, get the planet down to 4 bases.
Gorra: Our Ion Fighters beat one of their ships, the rest retreat.

2417:
Keep our retreating fleet at Rha.
Send our new bomber to Rha, will arrive next turn. Have Drakka build another for next turn.
Redistribute a little tech, research less weapon and more propulsion. Want speed 3 troop transports...

IBT:
Finally break through at Rha! The antimatter bomber made the difference, and we are down to 79 of the Nukers, so that pretty much used em up. It’s a Terran 90. 89 pop, 239 factories... I don’t bomb, however.
We colonize Beta Ceti, the terran up north, and get the GNN notice, we number 18 star systems now.

2418:
Transfer 65 pop from Drakka to Rha (2 turns). We have Ion Rifle, they have no hand weapon, so we should have a nice gropo advantage. I also send 35 from Laan (4 turns) as either backup or to fill the planet. Both planets start on eco to refill.
Transfer some pop from Darrian to Beta Ceti.
Gorra is almost at max factories, but hasn’t terraformed, so I split revenue 50:50 between them.
Our SoD stays at Rha.

IBT:
Psilon ships show up at Rha, retreat.
Psilon ships show up at Gorra, some get blown up and rest retreat.
We are #1 in production! Klackon > Silicoid > Psilon > Mrrshan > Alkari. The Silicoids are allied with the Mrrshans and the Alkaris, and at war with the Psilons and us. (This could be a problem on the next vote. But judging by the Population bars, we should be over 1/3 of the total; the Mrrshans and Alkari cannot have many population.)

2419:
Propulsion at 26%. Here’s where our good tech luck early on gets evened out; the bulb was mostly full when I started my turn.
Transfer 13 pop from Drakka to Rha, returning Drakka to 50% pop.
Shuffle people around a bit.

IBT:
Rha: It was 65 bugs vs 90 brains... they hold it with 9 remaining; guess the 13 on the way from Drakka should get it next turn though!
Still no propulsion research, dang it!

Next leader should:

o Finish taking Rha and bask in the glory of stealing all their techs. You have 13 troops to arrive next turn and 36 to arrive the turn after.
o Finish standing up Gorra and the 2 colonies in the north. Expanding our population in preparation for the next vote would be wise.
o Check that eco won't overrun on colonies that transferred pop.
o Check fleet building; some of our planets were working on Ion 3.0s that will be due in a few turns, but we might want to upgrade to a new ship with better bombs.
o Keep spying on the rocks; they have range and missile techs we want.
 

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Got it. I'll play tonight. Was expecting mostly to build factories but it looks like I've inherited an interesting position.

Selentine
 
I agree about the ship redesign. We may capture some weapons tech from the Psilons when we take Rha, and will at least get miniaturization on some components. Please hold off on any new designs at least until then (if you weren't planning to anyway.) We can probably scrap our Nukers now and build some huges with Antimatter bombs and some decent beam weapons -- ideally I'd like to see us capture Fusion Beams as well as Robotic Controls from the Psilons.
 
Great set of turns, good persistence in wearing down his bases to unlock the tech cabinet! I was also thinking we should scrap the older bombers. Also, have some scouts ready to push out once we take Rha, maybe we can get a glimpse of what's going on on the other side of the Psilons.
 
Warning: insanely long report. I kept the window open while I played. And these were some crucial turns, so I made sure every decision would be good enough for my teammates. Patroclus gave me an opening and I barged right through. All the details are here to play along. [end foreword]

Ok, first I check out the R screen and note what the enemies have researched. Sil: Shield=9, Missile=10, ground +15, BC4, RC4, ASS, EC6, PSV, RB, DS, +30, R7, MD, M10. Psi: Shield=10, Missile=4, ground +15, BC24, RC4, EC35, PSV, RB, DS, Tox, R59, WD, NB, FB. Pardon the shorthand--that's the way my notesheet looks. Our income is 6177 before spending any additional reserve, so I reduce espionage vs the Silicoids to 1.2%, enough for 2 spies per turn.

We are researching RC4, Zort, RB, Soil, W4, and AMT. W4 is at 26% with 1 click--that's enough, no need to burn more RP on it. RB was on one click and RC4 on three, good since we'll steal them soon enough. I emphasize Zort because I want to boost our troops and have the extra armor ready for our Warp-4 ships. Just to 9%, to take advantage of interest.

A lot of our planets are gradually building useless bases. I saw this happening in the past several saves but I didn't want to shout about it. I don't see the point in building bases when our shields and missiles are crap, and I don't see the point in building bases on Escalon ever. I increase our effective production about 10% by nearly halting base construction, though I do let a few almost-finished frontline bases finish.
We are still burning 6% of our prod on base maintenance, more than half of which I consider paranoid. Our reserve is a measly 641 and the B key tempts me.

Apparently we have engaged Psilon fleets in the past five years, but *I* don't know their ship designs. Whether their mediums carry Spores, for example, makes a big difference in where to go next.

Sssla is short seven factories (sabotage?). I build them.

I let Celtsi, the backyard UPoor, build facs until RC4 makes them prohibitive, at which point I will plowshare it into a popfarm.

Gorra is breeding. It is more efficient to send it pop from Kholdan and have Kholdan breed while Gorra exploits its URich bonus. I do that.

The radiated and the two toxics surrounding the upper nebula look appetizing, but war with the Silicoids makes me not want to defend them. We should get a range tech soon and then conquer the Silicoid outcrop at Reticuli. This would also make the infant colonies in the corner safer.

I decide then that I'm not going to build a colony ship this turn, so I scrap the colony design to make an obscenely expensive huge, just to protect the BC in the docks from popping too soon.

The ship design screen is munged. Mac import incompatibility? It does not show the Stabilizer on Patroclus's large bomber design, and has the Special 1 grayed out. But with 1139 space remaining! So, if willing to forego the Stabilizer I could put a sick number of bombs on a large hull. It displays the Attack Level as -1 on the design screen, but 3 on the fleet specs. Of course I redesign and hit CLEAR, which zeroes everything correctly. The new joke design is 4934 BC, so none will pop. I put Volantis back into ship production. I imagine whatever I design with Zort, W4, etc. will be more than the 3500 the Ion 3s cost right now.

I send 21 pop from Sssla and 12 from Toranor up to Darrian; that's how much they can recoup in one turn. Laan and Drakka aren't close to filling back up, so I leave them on ECO.

The fighter stack on Gorra doesn't need to stay there. F8 turns up nothing. It will reach Rha in 2 so I send it. This will free the stack currently on Rha to move onward to Regulus.

Looks like everything. I save (afraid of lockups) and bravely hit N. [I save every turn actually, but no lockups.]

Three Star Streaks (Def 3/3, Att 0, HP 27, Sh 0, Spd 2, 3 Fus Beam) appear on Rha long enough for me to scan them. Unknown spies destroy one missile base on ENDORIA, hitting us where it hurts. I do not bomb Rha. No tech breakthrough! :(

Our valiant troops capture Rha's 243 factories with 10 survivors. Death Spores, Planetary Shield V, ECM 3, and Fusion Beam are our reward. :mad: No Dissipator, no Cells, no Robots. I'll just have to smash Regulus now. One colony ship and nine Star Wings are en route to Rha. I imagine our 150 ion smalls will handle them.

I have to time this carefully because I don't want too many pop in transit in 2524. I still can't send men at Regulus because it's unscouted. Rha is 10/90+ with 36 due to land. I send 44 more from Drakka. Sadly they won't arrive in 1 because Fusion Drive didn't hit. I leave Drakka on ECO, since there aren't any purple ships in the neighborhood. I can raise a shield PDQ if needed.

I send Rha some of our feeble reserve and put it mostly on defense--a shield plus one base will stop Fusion mediums so our fleet can move forward. I let Gorra overflow a little and put some into shipbuilding. Next turn it will be maxed. When we get real techs and Volantis launches whatever it's building, I'll put it on RESERV and direct that into Gorra.

A Psilon appeared in the top nebula, but it's just a futile colship destined for Reticuli.

The Silicoids have turned up with Advanced Eco (10/1). :baffled:

Ok, we need more pop in Psilon space. Celtsi is now on 89 facs. I send 45 of its 90 pop to Kholdan. They'll land in 4, in time for the vote; can't send them farther safely. I send more men from Kholdan to Drakka--again, as far as they'll get in time at Warp 2--and leave it breeding.

Save again. Zort at 21% and W4 at 27%.

Of course I forget to leave something with a scanner at Rha. :( The Psilon Colship and 7 Star Wings shoot green beams from range 2. Must be heavy fusion, probably 1 per ship. strange they didn't retreat. Ah, and the Star Wings have Ion Cannons as backup, again probably just 1 from the feeble damage. Oh, and they're speed 1. We obliterate them with one shot and one more for the Colship which finally tries to retreat.

Regulus is 68 pop, 256 facs (nice ratio, easy meat), Shield 10, 20 nuke launchers. Ok, now I can scan them. Star Wing=Def 2/2, Att 4, HP 27, Shield 1, Spd 1, HFB+IC. Colship=Def 1/1, Att 4, HP 100, Shield 0, Spd 1, HFB. I could probably just hit A but for the team's sake I'll go through the grind. Ion smalls attract the first volley. And a second. I move them forward 2, then back 2 diagonally to keep them on the screen. Next turn they'll R. Ok, I should have moved them manually, then hit R. STOOPID computer. Meanwhile our 79 nuke bombers run a big circle to avoid being hit; they're faster than the missiles. When they get back, they do a thundering 2. No need to sweat keeping them alive, though I guess I get a few hundred extra for scrapping the whole stack. Our mighty fleet knocks down 2 of the 20 bases. :( Dismal failure.

Our research breaks through at last. I would rather have dissipators but obviously I need to build something NOW to deal with the Psilons before they can actually damage us.

Why didn't I write this down? In a solo game, I would just know. Well, given the choice between Industry 8, Armored Exo, and 40%, I do know we don't have Suits because Duralloy popped on my turn. Since we'll be invading A LOT, I think we need Exos. Plus with 5/1 in hand and 10/1 available from the Coids of all places, 40% is not that big a savings over 60%. Given the joyous choice of R7, R8, or Warp 5, I take Impulse Engines. We will steal useful range tech faster than we could research it (silly insects). W5 is also the only way forward in case--no, I shan't even say it--and we need something like Gates to mop up.

Ok. We're not going to learn or conquer another consequential ship-design tech soon, so I redesign. I also scrap what's left of the obsolete nukers. I don't build Sporers because they don't kill bases and we need to kill bases to take factories and tech. Besides, they're cheese.

Our Tech levels here are 15-22-22-25-19-23, if you want to play around with the spreadsheet. We can fit an AMB on a small, with Fusion/Spd 2 or Sub-Light/Spd2/Zort, but no way to get Spd 3. One more level of Construction would do it, but even if I'd taken IT8, no guarantee it'd hit. I think small Spd2 AMBers will perish too quickly, and BC0 bombers are basically useless against ECM5(Psilon) or 6(Silicoid). Medium designs are:

Attack 3 Shield 0 Def 7/7 HP 18 Warp 4 Spd 4 3xAMB 96BC
Attack 3 Shield 1 Def 5/5 HP 36 Warp 4 Spd 3 3xAMB 107BC
Attack 3 Shield 4 Def 2/2 HP 18 Warp 4 Spd 1 2xAMB 100BC

These all seem pretty feeble. Shield 4+3xAMB+Warp 4 is not possible, and we need warp to get them into Psilon space before they're obsolete. Strapping on a Scanner would raise the to-hit from 20% to 30%, a huge gain. So it looks like the best dedicated bomber would be a large:

Attack 4 Shield 4 Def 1/1 HP 100 Warp 4 Spd 1 18xAMB 567 BC

Of their 180 bombs, 54 should hit for 0-30 each, or 810. Psilon bases won't crack Shield 4, so no armor or maneuver. We'll need something else to break rocks, but we should have better tech by then.

The other design is a huge Auto-Repair HFBeamer. The HFBs will do something like 1 each per turn against Shield 10 (when they hit, which is 80% since ECMs don't jam them), so two of them will take down one base before timeout. Throwing some bombs on seems necessary, and the issue is how many. After much thought, I decide that firepower is more important than combat speed and settle for:

Attack 4 Shield 5 Def 1/1 HP 1200 Warp 4 Spd 2 8xHFB IC 25xAMB

Back to planets. Darrian is TFd and makes facs, awaiting immigrants. Beta says MAX and starts TFing. Celtsi breeds. Laan will remax its pop; I put the rest into tech. Rha TFs while working on its shield. 35 more from Drakka will fill Rha (it has 243 facs, we need at least 122 pop to use them) and 35 more from Kholdan will replace them. There's nowhere else I can send pop. Denubius, but I don't feel our current tech will crack it. The first Silicoid target should be small and rich or large and poor, with fewer than 30 bases.

I redirect the fleet at Regulus to Collassa. I think this is Not Cheese, unlike directing them to remain at Regulus. Maybe Collassa is Ultra Poor with no shield, who knows.

Gorra makes two bombers and sends them to Rha (in 2). Volantis makes a huge and sends it to Drakka (in 2). Talas and Firma don't build just yet.

Shows how much attention I was paying to earlier reports. :( Collassa is Inferno, 53/150. And because the Psilons settled it late, it has no bases and three Wings to defend it. Inferno, 100 max!?

2423: I send 65 from Rha to Collassa, replaced by another 24 from poor Drakka (down to 48 but with 65 en route). Drakka keeps breeding and gets another 14 from Laan (in 2) which will replace them in 1. Rha is getting its shield and a base up this turn, so I send the fighter stack to Collassa.

Having all these scouts on the core worlds confuses me. I think they're warships I forgot to launch.

I slow Talas and Firma down so they don't build before our troops hit Collassa. I gave Exos a jump start last turn (so they can interest their way up cheaply); this turn I pour most of the RPs into Enrichment to get a %.

IBT: Six large purple Monitors launch missiles at our poor scout at Trax. I let the scout die to verify; the missiles were launched from column I and hit, so they're probably merculite 2-racks. Psilon mediums retreat from Collassa. I still don't bomb. The horrifying GNN logo comes up and tells me Darrian is controlled by at least 27 million rebels. This is strange because it didn't rebel last turn when its pop was 21. It's annoying because this is 2424. I can't get enough men there before the vote, so I'll send them in 2425.

2424. Our large bombers are at Rha. I send them to Regulus, plus a huge and 50 small escorts from Collassa, leaving the earlier model bombers at Collassa in case it raises a base. Rha breeds and gets reinforcements from Drakka, which will be back up to 110 when the blimps land. Celtsi and Kholdan will be remaxed too.

I want to send the new huge to Mentar, but Mentar's out of range! It looks like Ukko-Mentar is slightly more than 4pc. I send since Denubius is hopeless and Ukko is the only target in range. Enrichment is at 12%.

IBT: Ukko is Terran, 120/352, with 29 merculite bases. It is guarded by one Monitor, Def 3/3, Att 3, HP 150, Sh 2, Spd 2 (IS), 2 M10x5 + 3M10x2. I get two shots in for about 60 per before I have to retreat.

18 mediums guard Regulus. The Ion 3 has such firepower I wonder if I can kill them all before they reach my bombers! Conveniently, I don't have to--after killing 10, they try to retreat (5 escape). Success! All 19 bases go down with one volley of bombs to spare. Ocean, 80 max.

We steal BC4 and R5, both badly needed, but not the crown jewels.

Vote time. Geode 12 for himself. Mrrs 4 for us! Alkari 2 against, Psilons 4 against, and I abstain our 17. Guess there was no danger after all.

[continued, was too long, but save was already attached here]
 
2425: Well, well. Mentar is in range from Ukko even though it's mm farther than Gorra->Drakka. I send the huge.

Sssla and Toranor send as many men at Darrian as they can replace in 2. This should leave Darrian with enough loyal Klackons to send some up to Beta--Celtsi to Beta is just too far.

I elect not to build defenses on Collassa because it'll be back-line once we finish off the Psilons. Instead it terraforms. Celtsi sends to Kholdan (45 in 3), Kholdan sends to Regulus (45 in 4), Rha sends to Regulus (61 in 1 to take it). Kholdan will regain the 45 in 2, then send another exodus before the blimps from Celtsi arrive.

I scrap the scout2s because they're not exactly defending anything anymore. If we need more scouts later we can make faster ones. I really want to use BC4 now that we have it.

2425.5: Mentar is 100/391, 34 nuke launchers. Our huge takes out 21 of them. Unknown spy hammers us again, sabotaging 4 of back-line Volantis's 16 bases.

61 Klackons with Zort Armor, PDS, and Ion Rifles (+30) against 71 Psilons with Duralloy Armor, PDS, and their bare fists (+20) should not lose. AUGH! One Psilon survives :(

2426: I cut back on the Enrichment (high enough anyway, 18%) and work harder on Exos. I'm still min on Repulsors and Robots, which I expect to take Real Soon Now for free. The Silicoids have developed Shield 6, and the Psilons cleverly took Megabolt Cannon (still no missiles) and Ion Drive! More baubles for us.

Drakka sends more pop to Rha which sends more pop to Regulus, yada yada. Collassa is TFd but stays on ECO because I just can't get enough men over there fast enough. It has 167 facs anyway. Again I hold off building ships but that's getting old.

An Ion and four large bombers (two of each type) will polish off Mentar. The huge at Mentar has nowhere useful to go in 1 and goes back to Ukko. The only planet near Mentar is Misha, which must be hostile. Convenient for us this geography stifled the Psilons.

IBT: 17 Star Wings at Mentar take issue with our large bombers, which dance like butterflies while the Ion 3 kills off 12 Wings, making them retreat. Enrichment hits! :) Our choices are the obsolete Barren and Toxic, 10/1 (which we can steal from the Silicoids), and Atmospheric, which I select.

Our 38 take down the last Regulan, pillaging Toxic, Repulsor, RC4!, R9!, EC5! and BC2. This is good. Even the bad ones are good because now there's no bad ones left--only Dissipator, Warp 6, Neutron Blaster, and Megabolt. Between Primodius and Mentar we should collect the full set.

Choices are ECM2, Advanced Scanner, BC6, and ECM6. ECM6 is the only way forward but I doubt we'll need it AND something from the next block to win this game. The choice between Adv Scanner and BC6 is not clear, so I take ECM2. It's only 1960 and will raise our tech level for miniaturization and spies. Someone might even want to strap one on a bomber someday. Mainly, though, I'm letting JMB take whichever real advance he wants.

The Force Field choice is between Personal Absorption Shield and Class VI. If Silicoids had Scatter 5, there might be a case for Class VI. I take PAS.

2427: I go through all the damn planets giving them enough ECO to enrich and a couple clicks of IND to refit.

The huge from Ukko goes to Primodius (in 2). I send 70 from Sssla to meet him there. I send from Rha, Regulus, and Collassa 90 to Mentar, which is all that can get there in 2 and SHOULD be enough but no guarantee.

We can't avoid building anymore, and there's no need for anti-Psilon designs as the Psilons are about cooked. A FAST bomber with a decent computer might do real damage to the Silicoids. Our levels now are 26-22-23-27-25-23. Our best medium bomber is now:

Attack 4 Shield 4 Def 7/7 HP 36 Warp 4 Spd 4 3xAMB 96BC

Quite an improvement. But still, it'll take 9 of em to take down one silicoid base per turn, and 31 bases will kill off 11. I wish we had Anti-Missile Rockets. We have over 10000 in the three docks, so I can have 100+ of these guys on Laan next turn and on Denubius the turn after. Another escort might be nice--the Silicoids have a few huges floating around, though they seem to be Warp 1.

I think the original Large Bombers have done their job (currently taking a victory lap around Mentar). I scrap them to design a better huge--Spd3, BC4, and 10 HFBs (but less bombs, since the dedicated bombers can handle that). I don't add a Repulsor since I haven't seen a stack that needed to be repulsed.

The R screen shows the Mrrshans and the main map shows their planets, but the M screen does not show green flags! I don't spy on them or write down details, since this looks buggy to me. No need for exploits when this far won.

Ok. 89 med bombers and a huge will arrive on Laan. I send men from Laan to Denubius (arrive in 2) and Kholdan (arrive in 3--Kholdan is about to receive 45 from Celtsi).

Complicated, slow turns, not like I was expecting yesterday!

IBT: :mad: So the Psilons haven't built one useful ship all game. Suddenly on Mentar appears a SUN FIRE: Def 3/6, Att 5, Sh 5, Sp 3, 9xHFB, 14xFB, 3xHBC, 4xNB, ARS, IS, BS. Our HFB huge could probably take it (with good tactics vs the AI's). Our Ion 3 can't possibly do 135/turn. So it retreats (with its bomber escorts) towards Tao, where it will meet 100 smalls from Collassa. Maybe the Sun Fire will find something interesting to do rather than guard Mentar against our 90 transports...

:) Our spies have infiltrated a Silicoid base. The choices are Planetology (the useless +30, looks too low-level for 10/1), Propulsion (the useless Range 7), or Weapons (the arguably useful Mass Driver or Merculites). I take Weapons and get Mass Driver.

33 of our 65 Imperial troops survive against the 27 rebels on Darrian.

The Mrrshan now appears, somehow, saying Surrender Now! I spy on her. Oh! We took range 9 by force, and one of her planets was 8 away. This is a minor quirk, inelegant, but I remember it now. She has five planets on the far side of the Silicoids. One yellow remains, must be Altair (above the far nebula on the near side), and the two systems inside the nebula must be Alkari or no-planet.

2328 I mostly build factories, not a very exciting turn. Stupid Psilons are aiming at Gorra, which can raise a shield so fast I can't see why not.

More troops from Drakka barracks set sail for Denubius. Here goes nothing.

IBT: Of course. Denubius produces a huge just in time. POLARIS Def 2/2, Att 4, HP 900, Sh 3, Spd 2, 10 Merculitex5, 13 MD, 13 Spores :eek: , IS, ARS, BS. Our escort laughs at that, but the 33 bases are hard to laugh at. Maybe they'll target our bombers?

Hmm. 10 HFBs did 115, and it repairs 135. We lose 13 bombers from 33 bases, about what I expected, then destroy 8, almost 9, about what I expected. We have plenty of force...dear god it retreated. Faced with the equivalent of a scout vs scout battle, the Polaris yields. 60 of our 89 bombers survive.

16 bases on Primo are the absolute limit--HFB killed the last two.

Spies destroy six factories on Toranor. :cry:

I do not bomb Denubius. I'm not sure we have enough to take it this turn, but I want all the facs (now that we have RC4) and the backups from Kholdan will arrive next turn. I don't bomb Primo either.

89 vs 133 WIN with 30 survivors! 70 vs 36 WIN with 41 survivors--four-fisted Psilons put up quite a fight! 47 (of 90 :() LOSE to 99 on Mentar--41 defenders remain. I think the Ion 3 is so outmatched that the Sun Fire wouldn't have retreated like the Polaris did, but maybe I should have fought a couple rounds to check.

Our empire nearly controls a majority of the galaxy.

From Denubius: ASS, +20, EC6, S6, M10, 10/1
From Primodius: Dissipator, Neutron Blaster, Ion Drive

Still two chances to get Megabolt Cannon. The only remaining Coid techs are Range 7 and +30, both obsolete. I switch to sabotage against them and espionage everyone else. No spy through to Mrrshans last turn :(

2429: My last turn, presumably of the game. I want to leave things in a happy place for the rest of you. Actually, it looks like we should win no later than 2449, which means no one gets a third term. Most of the planets are making factories. Just Celtsi is making tech. Exo is close, nothing else has been seriously researched. Gorra will be double-prod for a while, but it can always be kicked back into reserve for 150% return on investment. JMB, you can design whatever ship suits your fancy, and feel free to scrap my PSIBombers--their task is done. All our standard planets have been fertilized--Primo and Denubius will be converted this turn.

Well, I never bothered with Reticuli or the uninhabiteds in that corner, and I took Denubius first after all. Shows what I know.

IBT: Tao is Jungle from the look of it, 85/296. 28 bases which is too many--6 remain. Psilons make joke attacks on Gorra and Collassa.

Well, our spies have infiltrated a Mrrshan base. Comp, Planet, Prop, and Weapon are our choices. What could they have that we possibly need? Not scanners or robots or battle computers. Not environments or terraforming or enrichment. Not range or drives or Dissipators. Well, they're Mrrshans, if they have anything useful I'd guess it's a weapon. The mighty Neutron Pellet Gun is ours! At least it miniaturizes our real weapons.

We scan everything with the Adv Scanners we got last turn. So although I failed to scout Tao, you can still send men at it--it only has six nuke bases after all.

GNN reports that we lead in technology.

OK, the Mrrshans had garbage and in weapons at least we might have stolen Anti-Missile rockets.

And that's it. I didn't drop the ball--sorry if I hogged it. Thanks to everyone for building the great position I inherited, and for making me think more about my decisions (a couple times starting up test games to make sure I had my formulas down) than I would have solo. It's been fun, glad I played. It looks downhill from here.

Selentine
 
Great job breaking the AI's back, Selentine! You picked up on the AI's weak points and designed ships to address those weak points similarly (if not exactly identically) to what I would have done. I'm also appreciative of the detail in your report!

You had some implied questions/comments that I want to address.

A lot of our planets are gradually building useless bases. I saw this happening in the past several saves but I didn't want to shout about it. I don't see the point in building bases when our shields and missiles are crap, and I don't see the point in building bases on Escalon ever.
When I inherited the game and started the base building program, we had in the range of 0-2 bases on all of our planets, including key border systems like Drakka. Usually when I play solo, I build bases at a moderate rate (say 3 clicks or so on frontline systems, less on backline systems) until I have 10 or so, bearing in mind that the AI has a propensity for researching new range techs every so often. After I hit 10 bases, I slow down, but I usually keep a trickle going to keep the bases modernized as I capture/steal/develop tech. Even at back line systems like Escalon, I want at least a couple bases. A monster could show up, or the AI could develop Thorium cells for unlimited range, and I don't want to be in a position of starting from scratch at that point and having to wait a long time to get my first base up due to building a shield first. Better to have a couple bases up so however much of the shield I do complete before I get hit is actually protecting something. Even if I don't have any really good missiles or shields yet, it's pretty certain that I will at some point steal, capture, or develop some, in which case the investment is not wasted... and again, if I go to war against an equiv-tech opponent while I have a defensive disadvantage that I hope to counter by capturing tech, I'd better have some bases in place before I go to war, or I may be forced to spend a long time in the middle of my war effort building bases to defend against counterattack. Crash base-building programs at planets with inbound fleets are a mainstay of my defensive plan once I get Improved Scanners (or better), but I find they work better if you have at least a modest amount of bases in place to start with.

The level of base construction I described above usually amounts to base maintenance of about 5-10% in the early stages of the game, dropping to about half that (or less) by this time of the game. I note that Patroclus did in fact have a turn where the 11 bases on Drakka (at the time) proved themselves useful against a Psilon fleet. Still, as I mentioned, there does come a point where you've got enough bases on hand to provide a starting point for a solid defensive plan, and at that point I find it's better to reduce base expenditures to a trickle and concentrate more on other things. I haven't looked at any of the saves, but it's possible that leaders following me didn't look at the base situation and decide it was time to slow down until we got to your turn. Volantis, at 16 bases, probably would have merited having base spending reduced earlier, if I had been playing this solo.

Some players play with the philosophy that losing a planet or two to a counter-attack while you come up with an effective response is acceptable. Because I usually play on small maps where every planet counts and an SoD you can't counter can roll up half your empire in a big hurry, my philosophy has always been to protect all my planets with a significant but not excessive number of bases. Sirian is even more defensive-minded than I am in that regard and has reported base totals and maintenance expenditures that I would almost never consider, yet he still manages to win regularly on impossible, so it's probably a style preference more than anything else.

Having all these scouts on the core worlds confuses me. I think they're warships I forgot to launch.
Regarding the scouts, once I get into wartime mode and most of my planets have bases up, I usually scrap them too -- or at least move them off the front lines so that they don't accidentally interfere with my fleet movements. So no problems on that score.

We can't avoid building anymore, and there's no need for anti-Psilon designs as the Psilons are about cooked. A FAST bomber with a decent computer might do real damage to the Silicoids. Our levels now are 26-22-23-27-25-23. Our best medium bomber is now:

Attack 4 Shield 4 Def 7/7 HP 36 Warp 4 Spd 4 3xAMB 96BC
Time for some bombing discussions. I have some pointers to give (in general, you may already be aware of some of these) and questions to ask.

In this situation I would have preferred to build a small fast AMB bomber rather than a medium. I'd rather skip bulky defensive techs like shields, rely on speed and the wait button to evade enemy missiles, and spend my money on more ordinance -- especially if I have SPD 4 and can reach the planet in 2 turns, and even more especially if I can get an initiative advantage over the planet (which is usually not too hard with a fast bomber.) In fact, I was so puzzled as to why you would put a shield on any ship smaller than a large that I checked the design -- this is actually a shield 0 bomber.

With the tech available at the time you designed the medium bombers, I expect you could have designed something like:
  • Atk ~1 Shield 0 Def 8/8 HP 3 Warp 4 Spd 4 AMBx1 BC ~12
This would give you 8 bombs for 96 BC, rather than 3, and where it takes 4 hits with merculites to kill a 96 BC medium, 4 hits against smalls will only do 1/2 as much damage BC-wise, plus they are slightly harder to hit in the first place and less expensive to maintain. The only thing you're giving up is ~3 levels in BC. The question is whether almost tripling the bomb payload would give more return than the extra to-hit.

Your calculation of bomb to-hit chances seemed to imply that enemy ECM affects bomb to-hit, whereas Sirian seems to be of the opinion that it does not, and that BC IV-V is enough for any bomber to maximize bomb damage. Do you have any evidence that ECM counts against bombs? It might be possible to run a test to confirm -- you would need two opponents with equivalent shield tech and other defenses, but where one had a significant amount of ECM and the other did not. What formula did you use to get your estimate of how much damage your bombs would do?

Lastly, for those that are not aware, if you wait on the first turn with your bombers so that you move last, and allow the enemy missiles to come to you, use your held move to move diagonally toward one side of the board and past the missiles, and then immediately on the next turn (because you have initiative) move next to the planet with enough force to wipe out all the bases, the missiles in flight will disappear and you will take no casualties from enemy missile base fire. Even if you don't wipe the bases out completely, you still get the benefit of unloading your full complement of bombs on the first attack, before the initial volley reaches you for retaliation, and hopefully greatly reducing the weight of the second missle base volley. Only the fastest of enemy missiles will have a hope of catching you as you race toward the planet. This is why it is more important to maximize offensive payload than defenses on fast dedicated bombers.

So the Psilons haven't built one useful ship all game. Suddenly on Mentar appears a SUN FIRE: Def 3/6, Att 5, Sh 5, Sp 3, 9xHFB, 14xFB, 3xHBC, 4xNB, ARS, IS, BS. Our HFB huge could probably take it (with good tactics vs the AI's). Our Ion 3 can't possibly do 135/turn. So it retreats (with its bomber escorts) towards Tao, where it will meet 100 smalls from Collassa. Maybe the Sun Fire will find something interesting to do rather than guard Mentar against our 90 transports...

I think the Ion 3 is so outmatched that the Sun Fire wouldn't have retreated like the Polaris did, but maybe I should have fought a couple rounds to check.
The AI doesn't just look at his fleet superiority ships vs. our fleet superiority ships when calculating whether his fleet should retreat. The Polaris retreated not so much because of our HFB ship as because of the big bomber stack accompanying it. The total combat power of his fleet+planet was sharply dropping in comparison to our fleet+bombers. This is one of the reasons a decently large stack of bombers can go off unsupported in many cases and take worlds -- once the bases are bombed away, the AI judges he doesn't have enough combat power left to stay in the fight, and so retreats his fleet even though the bombers can't hurt his ships. In the case of the Ion at Mentar, your 2 large bombers probably didn't have enough combat power to help scare his huge away.

As far as the Ion 3 being outmatched and undergunned, I think the design did its job well, considering what it was intended to do at the time. It could perhaps have sacrificed the Inertial Stabilizer in favour of more weapons, which would have made it more useful against the Psilon fleet, but that would have made it more vulnerable to the Sakkra fleet it was intended to face. Certainly it was never intended to go up against an opponent sporting HFBs! :) Their job is done now, however, and they are eating up a fair bit of maintenance and one of our design slots, so they can probably be brought home and scrapped.
 
Selentine, exciting set of turns, and I really appreciate the detailed report. One of the biggest benefits of the SG format for me is trying to learn more about the decision process of some of the really good players (whether for Civ or MOO). In particular, your analysis of bombers vs. bases, and specific bombers for each race, is something I got out of these turns! ;) Thanks!

EDIT: Uh, crossposted with Zed-F, but ditto for you, Zed! My bomber philosophy is usually just like Nathan Bedford Forrest's famous motto, "fastest with the mostest", as many as I can get on a good speed ship, whether that means smalls, mediums, or larges, whichever works out to be the best combination. I definitely appreciate the discussion!!
 
Zed-F said:
Great job breaking the AI's back, Selentine! You picked up on the AI's weak points and designed ships to address those weak points similarly (if not exactly identically) to what I would have done. I'm also appreciative of the detail in your report!
Whew! Thanks, cap'n, and thanks for your response. I respect your play, strange as it seems sometimes, and it's good to hear your reasoning. (not gonna quote it line by line)

When your first turn came, you commented that you seldom threw 000s of BCs into a huge you didn't intend to launch, and then commented that zero bases left you feeling unprepared. My philosophy--and I play medium far more than small, which may account for this--is that with 3000 BC in the dock, I'm prepared for anything, whereas bases might be the wrong solution to a given fleet. I don't mind having 1-2 bases up, since it does save a step if you have to crashbuild shields later. So while I was needling you :mischief: I can't single out any one player for the surfeit of bases.

Even at back line systems like Escalon, I want at least a couple bases.
That's why I didn't scrap 'em. :) Personally I think I could raise enough bases at Escalon by the time whatever made landfall. But again, I seldom play small, so I do ascribe to the survivable-loss philosophy. To get ready for my turn, I played Med/Imp/5/Klackon and got a huge land grab, which meant I was building lots of colony ships and behind on tech. I had to just concede one planet each to the Humans and Darloks while catching up. On small you can't afford that, so the Hedgehog is a fine strategem.

Even if I don't have any really good missiles or shields yet, it's pretty certain that I will at some point steal, capture, or develop some, in which case the investment is not wasted...
Bases cost like 250 early and 150 or less when I get belligerent. 250 early can pay a lot more than 150 down the road. </pontification>

I saw base maintenance was over 5% and I was horrified! :haironend: But certainly your plan works--even here in the SG--and I don't mean to deplore it.

I know how the wait button works, btw. I elect not to use it because I consider it broken.

Ack, I typoed that design. Yes, everyone, the SILBombers are Shield 0.

With the tech available at the time you designed the medium bombers, I expect you could have designed something like:
  • Atk ~1 Shield 0 Def 8/8 HP 3 Warp 4 Spd 4 AMBx1 BC ~12
I presented the tech levels. The spreadsheet is linked from the RB board. I couldn't fit ANY computer on it *OR* a stabilizer.

Your math adds up. If I could build smalls with stabilizers and even BC1, I might well have done so. That was not possible in 2427.

Your calculation of bomb to-hit chances seemed to imply that enemy ECM affects bomb to-hit, whereas Sirian seems to be of the opinion that it does not, and that BC IV-V is enough for any bomber to maximize bomb damage. Do you have any evidence that ECM counts against bombs? It might be possible to run a test to confirm
Yes. In 2422 I was not certain--I "knew" but had not tested--so I loaded a solo game, designed a BC3 bomber, OREO'd 100 of them over an enemy planet (an enemy with good ECMs), and noted how much damage they did. 200 fusion bombs were doing 500 per volley against shield 4. So 5-20 minus 4 is 1-16 or 8.5 per. About 60 were hitting. Or 30%, against beam defense 1 and missile defense 5, with attack level 3. Att3 AMBers were doing 4500/kilobomb against missile defense 5, shield 10 (15 avg damage, 30% hit). While discovering OREO's limitations, I also tested BC4 AMBers against a planet with nothing (Shield 1, no ECMs) and they were doing (((10+40)/2)-1)*0.8 with reasonable random deviation. ECMs do jam bombs.

And yes, the Ion 3 did its job toasting the Sakkras. Because we didn't have much else (and the Psilons didn't have much until the Sun Fire), I was still using the Ion 3s til the end. One of them stopped the last joke attack against Collassa, and the other cleared almost all the mediums on Tao so my Spd1 bombers could unload. They certainly served us well.

Selentine
 
I'd like to echo my thanks for the detailed discussion. I grossly underestimated our ability to bring it to the Psilons.
 
Good answers Selentine. If you consider wait broken (and I agree there is an argument to be made for that) then by all means don't use it. I haven't come to a decision on that. Obviously the designers put it there with the intention that it should be used, but is it too strong an advantage for the human? That would be like saying the ability to micromanage which worker does what where in Civ1-3, rather than just automating everything, is too strong. Maybe it is stronger than the AI approach of moving everything as its turn comes up, but is the ability to wait essential enough to the way combat is intended to flow that removing it entirely causes more problems than it solves? Hard to say.

Unfortunately the spreadsheet doesn't seem to work correctly for me. The formulae in C9-F18 show as being broken, and are complicated enough that I don't want to mess with them. :) I know with the tech we had in 2430 we could design a small bomber with fusion engines, inertial stabilizer, and BC II, so I figured we could have made a design that was a bit less capable than that only 3 years before. Capturing Ion Engines must have made a dramatic difference in the miniaturization levels.

I had suspected that ECM might have a factor in bomb results, but there was another possible explanation -- with lower Atk levels, bombs might tend to do damage in the low part of the range, versus the high part of the range with good Atk levels, as with beams. I couldn't tell if bombs were acting more like missiles with variable damage, or beams that only hit the ground. Your math is suggestive of the former.
 
Good set of turns, and a great report, Selentine. I knew we could crack open the Psilons if we hit them before they upgraded their missiles to something a little more effective than Nuclear Missiles. :)

The correct way to test the ECM vs Bomb theory: play a low-difficulty game with the Psilons, and build up a huge tech lead with a high-level ECM jammer that the AI doesn't have. Build a bomber with approximate attack level parity to the enemy's missile defense, and save the game.

Bomb a planet, and note the average damage from your bombs. Reload the save.

Give the victim your high-level ECM Jammer, wait a turn or two (to give them time to implement the jammer at their bases), then bomb the planet again with the exact same bomber stack. Their new and improved defense should greatly reduce the amount of damage you do.
 
Well, with the long weekend and all, I haven't been able to play yet... I'll play tomorrow morning (PST).

JMB
 
Nice turns Selentine and thanks for the detailed report!

Now, I just have to figure out what I am suppose to do... :hmm: I think I am out of my league playing with you guys... (I am learning quite a bit though... :thumbsup: )

Also, what sort of victory condition are we going for anyways?

0 - Send our Sil bombers to Ukko.

1 - We take out all but 6 bases on Ukko.

2 - We discover Armored Exoskeleton and begin researching Reduced Ind Waste 40%. The Alkari declare war on us. Over 100 troops are sent to Ukko.

3 - We take Ukko with 74 troops remaining and discover Terraforming +30 and Dolomite Crystals.

4 - The Mrrshans decide to threaten us...

5 - We steal controlled barren from the Mrrshans and frame the Alkari for it. We steal fusion bombs from the Alkari. The Psilions come beggin for peace, but I refuse. The Mrrshans declare war on us.

6 - Not much.

7 - We learn ECM jammer II. Begin researching BC8.

8 - We capture Tao and discover Megabolt cannon. The Geodes and Psilions come seeking peace, but I refuse.

9 - Not much.

10 - We capture Mentar and destroy the Psilions.

Sorry about the rather poor turns. I couldn't quite figure out how to damage the Silicoids and tried building a couple different gropo bombers, but they weren't particularly effective.

Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBOSG22440.zip

JMB
 
Ok, I will see if I can get this tonight.

EDIT: Got it as of Tues night, but haven't yet had a chance to play it.
 
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