dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
This might be an unsolvable conundrum, but I'm going to raise it since it's a HUGELY realistic part of history.
THE MAIN ISSUE
From the "More Aggressive Colonization Thread",
Right now, we have a game where Rome can build a huge empire, and watch as it crumbles with the emergence of new civilizations.
However, many empires crumbled not because of new civilizations, but the re-emergence of old ones.
HISTORICAL EXAMPLES
Every time a Civilization is conquered, it is never the same, but it always retains some notion of a unique identity. In a lot of ways, a civilization "mutates" after being colonized.
The following civilizations managed to 'resurrect themselves' after being dominated. Some multiple times. It usually involved an uprising, and involved having a strong culture.
PERSIA (Many Re-Emergences, then Nationalized): The most important re-appearing Civ is definitely Persia. They've 're-appeared' more times than most. Once, mutated by Hellenization. Again, mutated by Romanization. And again, mutated by Islamification. Then they re-appeared after being conquered by the Turks AND the Mongols. ... and again by the British AND Russians. It wasn't like they switched hands -- they really won their independence several times.
INDIA: (Several Re-Emergences... then Nationalized) Kind of conquered by Persia and Greece, but this only really changed the region known today as Afghanistan. Otherwise, the area we know today as India is more complex. A lot of internal fighting and small invasions. Most notable would be the impact of one of the later Persian empires (the Sassanians), and invasion by the Sultans further West. Later colonized by Britain.
RUSSIA: (One Re-Emergence) Dominated by the Mongols. Re-emerged afterwards, perhaps with a tougher skin.
CHINA (One Re-Emergence, Nationalized): Some internal fighting and dynasty changes. Conquered by the Mongols. In arguably the greatest triumph of the pen over the sword, the Mongol rulers were "Sinicized". Yes, the conquered people actually mutated the CONQUEROR. That's the power of cultural assimilation. Later colonized by Britain, but the winds of Nationalism were blowing strong, and China prevailed.
GREECE (One Re-Emergence, Nationalized): Greece became the Byzantine Empire after being conquered by the Romans. And then it was eventually conquered by the Ottomans, and found independence with the surgance of nationalism in the 1800s.
The following Civilizations were dominated... some were only dominated briefly, others longer, and some even went from being part of one empire to another. But they all have in common that they all had one key re-emergence after the 1800s, with the advent of Nationalism.
EGYPT: (Nationalized) Switched hands between the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans... before it seperated from Rome as part of the Byzantine Empire. At which point, it was conquered by the Arabs, and then the Ottomans. Later colonized by Britain. Basically didn't exist for 2500 years, but now exists today in a Nationalized form.
MALI (Nationalized): Underwent a few mutations (mostly internal struggles). West Africa was colonized by the French and Portuguese. Mali stands once again today.
ROME (Nationalized): Collapsed, eventually fragmenting into city states. Eventually dominated by the French and Spaniards. Eventually conquered by the Austrians. Found independence with the surgance of nationalism in the 1800s.
AZTECS (Nationalized): Dominated by the Spanish. Found independence with the surgance of nationalism in the 1800s.
GERMANY: (Nationalized) Mostly existed as the Holy Roman Empire until Napoleon came along. Emerged changed by the ideal of Nationalism in the 1800s. Only off the map briefly.
ARABS (Nationalized): Lots of internal struggles that persist today. But conquered briefly by the Mongols, and switched hands to the Ottoman Empire, then to Britain. Several rival Arab states exist today, as a product of Nationalism.
INCA: (Nationalized) Conquered by the Spanish and Portugese. Re-emerged, albeit fragmented, with the emergence of Nationalism in the 1800s.
JAPAN: (Nationalized) Sort of colonized by the West, and subjugated. For a while. Then was restored to national control. Later, went on to fight off the Russians and invade China. Very briefly conquered.
The exceptions?
SUMMARY
As you can see, Naitonalism was a powerful ideal that basically made world domination impossible. Still, even with the potency of Nationalism, the British Empire managed to have 25% of the world's population -- about on par with the largest empires in history, such as Rome and Mongolia... and the stable and populous nations of China and India.
Note that no nation has ever controlled much more than 25% of the world's population. And never much more than 20% of the world's land.
Before the age of Nationalism (1800+), there are only 5 major civilizations (by Civ standards) that ever re-emerged from domination.
THOUGHTS?
How the heck do you implement something like this into a game without basically rewarding laziness? "Oh, I'm Persia, so I know I'll never be wiped out."
(The right answer might be: we don't, and we forego realism for the sake of game play.)
THE MAIN ISSUE
From the "More Aggressive Colonization Thread",
SilverKnight said:... The many caliphates put in place by the global jihad branched off to be on their own. Arabia was a vast religious, but not politically united entity. It took quite a lot (a Crusade or too, in fact) for them to unite for a militaristic goal. Eventually they lost ground to Spain, Persia became its own power again (correct me if I am mistaken, please), etc.Arkaeyn said:Arabia shouldn't "survive for a while." Arabia should explode onto the scene, and be the most important Civilization in the game for a good 400 years. They should take over much or all of Egypt, North Africa, Persia, and Spain - or at least, have that potential.
Right now, we have a game where Rome can build a huge empire, and watch as it crumbles with the emergence of new civilizations.
However, many empires crumbled not because of new civilizations, but the re-emergence of old ones.
HISTORICAL EXAMPLES
Every time a Civilization is conquered, it is never the same, but it always retains some notion of a unique identity. In a lot of ways, a civilization "mutates" after being colonized.
The following civilizations managed to 'resurrect themselves' after being dominated. Some multiple times. It usually involved an uprising, and involved having a strong culture.
PERSIA (Many Re-Emergences, then Nationalized): The most important re-appearing Civ is definitely Persia. They've 're-appeared' more times than most. Once, mutated by Hellenization. Again, mutated by Romanization. And again, mutated by Islamification. Then they re-appeared after being conquered by the Turks AND the Mongols. ... and again by the British AND Russians. It wasn't like they switched hands -- they really won their independence several times.
INDIA: (Several Re-Emergences... then Nationalized) Kind of conquered by Persia and Greece, but this only really changed the region known today as Afghanistan. Otherwise, the area we know today as India is more complex. A lot of internal fighting and small invasions. Most notable would be the impact of one of the later Persian empires (the Sassanians), and invasion by the Sultans further West. Later colonized by Britain.
RUSSIA: (One Re-Emergence) Dominated by the Mongols. Re-emerged afterwards, perhaps with a tougher skin.
CHINA (One Re-Emergence, Nationalized): Some internal fighting and dynasty changes. Conquered by the Mongols. In arguably the greatest triumph of the pen over the sword, the Mongol rulers were "Sinicized". Yes, the conquered people actually mutated the CONQUEROR. That's the power of cultural assimilation. Later colonized by Britain, but the winds of Nationalism were blowing strong, and China prevailed.
GREECE (One Re-Emergence, Nationalized): Greece became the Byzantine Empire after being conquered by the Romans. And then it was eventually conquered by the Ottomans, and found independence with the surgance of nationalism in the 1800s.
The following Civilizations were dominated... some were only dominated briefly, others longer, and some even went from being part of one empire to another. But they all have in common that they all had one key re-emergence after the 1800s, with the advent of Nationalism.
EGYPT: (Nationalized) Switched hands between the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans... before it seperated from Rome as part of the Byzantine Empire. At which point, it was conquered by the Arabs, and then the Ottomans. Later colonized by Britain. Basically didn't exist for 2500 years, but now exists today in a Nationalized form.
MALI (Nationalized): Underwent a few mutations (mostly internal struggles). West Africa was colonized by the French and Portuguese. Mali stands once again today.
ROME (Nationalized): Collapsed, eventually fragmenting into city states. Eventually dominated by the French and Spaniards. Eventually conquered by the Austrians. Found independence with the surgance of nationalism in the 1800s.
AZTECS (Nationalized): Dominated by the Spanish. Found independence with the surgance of nationalism in the 1800s.
GERMANY: (Nationalized) Mostly existed as the Holy Roman Empire until Napoleon came along. Emerged changed by the ideal of Nationalism in the 1800s. Only off the map briefly.
ARABS (Nationalized): Lots of internal struggles that persist today. But conquered briefly by the Mongols, and switched hands to the Ottoman Empire, then to Britain. Several rival Arab states exist today, as a product of Nationalism.
INCA: (Nationalized) Conquered by the Spanish and Portugese. Re-emerged, albeit fragmented, with the emergence of Nationalism in the 1800s.
JAPAN: (Nationalized) Sort of colonized by the West, and subjugated. For a while. Then was restored to national control. Later, went on to fight off the Russians and invade China. Very briefly conquered.
The exceptions?
- France took huge losses after the fall of Napoleon, and Britain after the fall of Colonialism -- but neither lost their homeland.
- America is pretty much the first product -- and a unique one at that -- of the fall of Colonialism, and the emergence of Nationalism.
- Spain, Mongolia, and England did most of the conquesting -- and may have lost a war here or there but never lost their homeland.
- Portugal and Turkey, for their impact, are not represented.
- Ethiopia is the only nation to resist colonization.
SUMMARY
As you can see, Naitonalism was a powerful ideal that basically made world domination impossible. Still, even with the potency of Nationalism, the British Empire managed to have 25% of the world's population -- about on par with the largest empires in history, such as Rome and Mongolia... and the stable and populous nations of China and India.
Note that no nation has ever controlled much more than 25% of the world's population. And never much more than 20% of the world's land.
Before the age of Nationalism (1800+), there are only 5 major civilizations (by Civ standards) that ever re-emerged from domination.
THOUGHTS?
How the heck do you implement something like this into a game without basically rewarding laziness? "Oh, I'm Persia, so I know I'll never be wiped out."
(The right answer might be: we don't, and we forego realism for the sake of game play.)