Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 7,475
CF is fine, they just have to tweak the formula that decides how many units you need to keep the city from flipping. it must be adjusted to map size and age, and turned down a little!
Real Solution to Culture Flipping
- Thread starter jpowers
- Start date
The Best way to stop a culture flip if you are planning on a conquest is to station 2 full carriers off the coast of the city, and Bombard it for 2 turns. With 4 bombers on each carrier, that's 16 bombing runs, of which some will predictably fail, (usually 4-6), some will weaken the defenders, some will ruin city improvements, but most importantly, some will kill citizens. Once your bombing is done, (you can use artillery or Battleships for this too), then attack with your tanks, occupy the city with many units on that first turn of occupation, (culture flipping rarely happens on the first turn). This gets rid of lots of many of the resistors. Switch the production to temple and disband one of your attacking units, (a conscript mech inf works perfectly, as it gets you the temple in one turn). You need to do this cause you can't rush build the temple during resistance. On the second turn of you occupation, pull out some of the units and use them to surround the city, (in case you loose it to a flip you can conquer it again). Once you get some culture in there, and get rid of any resistors you will push your borders out and no longer be in danger or a culture flip. Go for a peace treaty, starve the city down to size 1 or 2, then rapidly build up the population with people of your own kind by adding workers to the pop, and using aggressive food eating tactics. This strategy works like a charm for conquering & keeping.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 7,475
iansane - very good, but have you seen the "Firaxis - how many is sufficient" thread? It is the sheer number of units necessary to absolutely prevent flips that is the bad thing about them!
Ayatollah So
the spoof'll set you free
A few of you have seen the eminent wisdom of jpowers's suggestion. Shame on the rest of you.
If migration of independent population points isn't enough for you, there could be some mechanism for civil/revolutionary war -- but that would be much more difficult for Firaxis to implement. On the other hand, it would give the game a much more historically realistic flavor.
If migration of independent population points isn't enough for you, there could be some mechanism for civil/revolutionary war -- but that would be much more difficult for Firaxis to implement. On the other hand, it would give the game a much more historically realistic flavor.
Smoking mirror
Ships Captain
I think the most easy fix to implement would be a Traffic Light strategy, during peacetime.
greenFirst time a city would culture flip you should get the message;
"Disident groups are campaining for incorporation to the (whatever civ the flip would be) (whatever their Government is), word is they admire their culture"
and the city should go in to disorder.
Orangesecond time the city would flip you should get the following message
"Ethnic (citizens from whatever the enemy civ is) freedom fighters from (the city) have attacked (your own civ) government officials in open rebellion."
and some of your own nationals should be elliminated, and the happyness improvements in the city should be destroyed (temple cathedral etc..).
Red The final time a culture flip should happen the following message should be shown;
"Armed rebels in (the city) have revolted during civil demonstrations and our own troops have been expelled with heavy casualties, (the enemy civ) has incorporated the rebels in to thier (whatever their government is)." the city shoud flip to the enemy, and your troops should all be expelled to
This way each time the chances of further flipping becomes more likely, Disorder, reduced loyal citizens and finaly reduced happines and culture- This is very much what happened during the run up to WWII on the Czecheslovakian borders.
But it also allows you the opertunity to reinforce against the chances by rebuilding improvements and stationing troops there. It also means that the whole process is more of a gradual slide towards cultural incorporation, rather than a sudden flip.
During a war time the same could happen but with the following texts
green "(whatever the enemy civ) Nationalists are staging strikes against the occupational government"
Orange "(whatever the enemy civ) Rebels are exeqution terrorist actions against the occupational government. Some of our officials have been killed, and relegious groups persecuted".
Red "(the city) has rebeled agaisnst the Ocupational government and allowed (enemyciv) troops in to the city at night. Our troops have been expelled with heavy casualties".
The same should be the case for A.I. cities, so you know there to target your cultural infiltration strategy, for example;
Green "Disidents in (the enemy city) are campaining for incorporation in to our (our government type)".
Orange "In secret arangement with our government (our civ) nationalist militants in (the enemy city) are staging paramilitary actions against the unlawfull ocupation by (the enemy civ)".
Red "Armed rebels in (the enemy city) have thrown off the (enemy civ) tryrants and want to join our (government type), What shall we do?"
I think this Traffic light aproach is the easiest overhaul to make, the most difficult thing to do would be the expultion of the military units. Also I think it would put to rest most peoples questions as to the realism of culture flipping.
greenFirst time a city would culture flip you should get the message;
"Disident groups are campaining for incorporation to the (whatever civ the flip would be) (whatever their Government is), word is they admire their culture"
and the city should go in to disorder.
Orangesecond time the city would flip you should get the following message
"Ethnic (citizens from whatever the enemy civ is) freedom fighters from (the city) have attacked (your own civ) government officials in open rebellion."
and some of your own nationals should be elliminated, and the happyness improvements in the city should be destroyed (temple cathedral etc..).
Red The final time a culture flip should happen the following message should be shown;
"Armed rebels in (the city) have revolted during civil demonstrations and our own troops have been expelled with heavy casualties, (the enemy civ) has incorporated the rebels in to thier (whatever their government is)." the city shoud flip to the enemy, and your troops should all be expelled to
This way each time the chances of further flipping becomes more likely, Disorder, reduced loyal citizens and finaly reduced happines and culture- This is very much what happened during the run up to WWII on the Czecheslovakian borders.
But it also allows you the opertunity to reinforce against the chances by rebuilding improvements and stationing troops there. It also means that the whole process is more of a gradual slide towards cultural incorporation, rather than a sudden flip.
During a war time the same could happen but with the following texts
green "(whatever the enemy civ) Nationalists are staging strikes against the occupational government"
Orange "(whatever the enemy civ) Rebels are exeqution terrorist actions against the occupational government. Some of our officials have been killed, and relegious groups persecuted".
Red "(the city) has rebeled agaisnst the Ocupational government and allowed (enemyciv) troops in to the city at night. Our troops have been expelled with heavy casualties".
The same should be the case for A.I. cities, so you know there to target your cultural infiltration strategy, for example;
Green "Disidents in (the enemy city) are campaining for incorporation in to our (our government type)".
Orange "In secret arangement with our government (our civ) nationalist militants in (the enemy city) are staging paramilitary actions against the unlawfull ocupation by (the enemy civ)".
Red "Armed rebels in (the enemy city) have thrown off the (enemy civ) tryrants and want to join our (government type), What shall we do?"
I think this Traffic light aproach is the easiest overhaul to make, the most difficult thing to do would be the expultion of the military units. Also I think it would put to rest most peoples questions as to the realism of culture flipping.
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
I definetely agree with jpowers idea. I mean---look at Mexico and the US. The US's "culture" is dominent, and workers are streaming out of Mexico to come here. However, I disagree on one thing---I don't think the emigranting pop point should be a worker---I think it should simply be subtracted from one city and added to another. And I also don't think that the units should disapear---that's absurd. I think they should change sides, or be expelled from the city.
cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
I change my vote---Smoking Mirror's idea is brilliant!
Anglophile
Warlord
I try to avoid Culture Flipping debates but sometimes weaken and this is one of those times. It is quite obvious that culture flipping is neither unprecedented in history nor realistically portrayed in the game. IMHO Firaxis put it in to reward one style of game play and make winning by conquest - always the easiest way for a human to win as we are much better tactically and strategically than the best game AIs to date - significantly more difficult. I am one of those players who benefit more than lose from CF due to my preferred style but at the same time don't care much if it disappears, stays or gets modified in one of the excellent ways mentioned in this thread. However, if it is there for game balance, not historical accuracy, then apparent improvements may lead to less challenging and fun games (except for Zouave).
Which leads to the second point. I think we should band together and contribute to a "Let's get a life for Zouave" fund. The game has been out since last year and he hates it - to the tune of 1290 posts and counting on its multitudinous deficiencies. I've bought a few games that I load with anticipation, play for a short time and abandon absolutely forever. It's OK, there are so many other things to do/games to play that I feel little remorse about moving on, barring a slight pang that the game money could have better been spent elsewhere, say a couple of cases of beer. However, Zouave is stuck, like an old record with a scratch, unable to move on, unable to do anything except endlessly repeat the same message. Well that is a shame; he is clearly an intelligent and articulate (if somewhat repetitive) person who deserves better. And we, fellow civvers who don't suffer from CF/corruptionphobia should be the ones to help him. Suggestions welcome.
Which leads to the second point. I think we should band together and contribute to a "Let's get a life for Zouave" fund. The game has been out since last year and he hates it - to the tune of 1290 posts and counting on its multitudinous deficiencies. I've bought a few games that I load with anticipation, play for a short time and abandon absolutely forever. It's OK, there are so many other things to do/games to play that I feel little remorse about moving on, barring a slight pang that the game money could have better been spent elsewhere, say a couple of cases of beer. However, Zouave is stuck, like an old record with a scratch, unable to move on, unable to do anything except endlessly repeat the same message. Well that is a shame; he is clearly an intelligent and articulate (if somewhat repetitive) person who deserves better. And we, fellow civvers who don't suffer from CF/corruptionphobia should be the ones to help him. Suggestions welcome.
Anglophile me i agree most of the time with zouave, he likes the game for sure like me but you need to make change in editor to your conveniance( like defensive value against bombardement). And there is some very irritating stuf in the game that shouldnt be there( a.i cheating, cultur flipping...), that s why it is frustrating a very good game with some flaw.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
If the flip happens in the turn after you capture the city, it may be too late to do anything about it. So in a war, if there was a chance the city could flip in one turn, and there were 10 foreign citizens, you might need 35 units to move into the city immediately to avoid flipping. In other situations, the green light etc. approach would be useful.
Maybe, in addition to the green/red light they could give you a 2 move grace period after taking a city before flipping.
Maybe, in addition to the green/red light they could give you a 2 move grace period after taking a city before flipping.
Simple. Get the moderators to write a little 'bot in VB. It would scan all new topics. If they include the phrases pr words "weak", "stupid", "what the hell", "lame", etc. (we could build a database by just scanning all of Zouave's old posts), and can thus be assumed to be a post by someone frustrated or annoyed at something the game does, then the 'bot would just quote the relevant text of the post and create a reply saying "This is just a typical example of the lame programming and weak attempts at game design of the people at Firaxis. The <thing you discuss> won't EVER be fixed, because Firaxis is greedy and corrupt and is spending all of their time figuring out new ways to screw the honest gamer out of their hard-earned dollar instead of adding the features that should have been in the game from day one."
If anyone posts a reply to the "Zouave" post, then the 'bot would immediately post a "Didn't realize the Firaxis boy toy fan club was active on this thread, I guess you guys have nothing better to do than cheerlead for a bunch of hacks and nitwits." response.
With 99% of his Civ Fanatics posting thus done for him automatically, Zouave could relax and spend his time working on modding the things that bug him, finding a new game, or (here's an idea) coding a game that meets his exacting standards.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 7,475
Folks, stop picking on Zouave! He's very good in making the frustration many (!) players feel about certain aspects very clear to everyone - inlcuding Firaxis! And we all know that compl,aining here, along with making suggestions, will sometimes influence changes in the next patch.......
On topic: I like the traffic lights apporach, very much so! Maybe a new thread with a poll would be in order?????? Smoking mirror?????
On topic: I like the traffic lights apporach, very much so! Maybe a new thread with a poll would be in order?????? Smoking mirror?????
Masquerouge
Deity
Off topic : is it true zouave was a Civ3 beta tester ? if yes, it's almost the fallen Angel story
For culture flipping, I am one of those who benefit from the flips, because I usually don't go to war, and I have a really strong culture, and the AI just LOVES to grab that one tile of free land in the middle of my empire to settle a city. And if it won't flip, then it will be an easy prey when the AI foolishly declares war on me.
So, arhm, I LIKE culture flip.
For culture flipping, I am one of those who benefit from the flips, because I usually don't go to war, and I have a really strong culture, and the AI just LOVES to grab that one tile of free land in the middle of my empire to settle a city. And if it won't flip, then it will be an easy prey when the AI foolishly declares war on me.
So, arhm, I LIKE culture flip.
GeneralTacticus
Warlord
Really? I very rarely see flips even in wartime, and certainly not in cities where I have most of my troops - although I rarely have them all concentrated in one city anyway.
