Realism Invictus

Yes, you can place cities so they can take advantage of lakes. They become relatively ok than. I feel like every civ fishing dock should be that gives +2 food like Indonesian unique building. And there is very small amount of islands and reefs and stuff on the map, which some civs have UI for. I don't get it why every civ game makes sea tiles crap. Aren't biggest and most important cities on the coast in Real Life? And coastal civs gets a bit shafted since there is no Coast Bias. Also seafarer would be a bit better if you get trade route for cities on rivers. Didn't Vikings use river of Russia and Ukraine to trade and reach and pillage even Constantinople. Just wish if there is some mod, or did somebody edited files for RI who hates poor lakes :)?
Ocean tiles should probably get some late-game buff, but if we were going for realism overfishing should make them worthless eventually...
You do already get a trade route for cities on rivers- there's the river dock building. Seafarer is one of the better traits in my opinion, so I don't think it needs another buff.
Inland cities usually have food shortages for me, but my maps always seem to have deserts or mountain ranges in the middle of the continent.
 
You can do (nearly) everything you want with the ships and waterbuildings. Take a look back on my post from 21th Dec 2021 (page 407).
 
Ocean tiles should probably get some late-game buff, but if we were going for realism overfishing should make them worthless eventually...

The global catch is generally stable, there are overfishing problems, but they are local. The problem with realism is precisely that "Сivilization" does not reflect oceanic fishing in any way. Which began to prevail around the 60s.
 
Is there a easy way to run RI with the grass textures from beyong the sword?
I tried to replace some textures files with the original files but that didnt work.
 
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The global catch is generally stable, there are overfishing problems, but they are local. The problem with realism is precisely that "Сivilization" does not reflect oceanic fishing in any way. Which began to prevail around the 60s.
I've always felt that you could represent that (and farming beyond the city radius) by having buildings that use food resources to produce :food:. That way each fish and whale resource from the oceans outside your city radius would give a city +1 food (with the appropriate infrastructure built). It would also effectively allow you to import food from other civs and transfer food from one city to another, and it would make livestock better, since you will now need to balance +1:health: and +1 :food: to a city of your choice against the epidemic chance and the opportunity to build a farm on that tile (I often make an effort to avoid getting pigs and cattle, for example).
I have no idea whether the AI can handle food-producing buildings, of course.
 
I've always felt that you could represent that (and farming beyond the city radius) by having buildings that use food resources to produce :food:. That way each fish and whale resource from the oceans outside your city radius would give a city +1 food (with the appropriate infrastructure built).

In the late "Invictis" game, it pretty much is - having two food resources, you can build a cannery in any city that gives 2 units of food. The problem is that resources have to be within cultural boundaries.

It would also effectively allow you to import food from other civs and transfer food from one city to another,

Hmm, there is an obvious option for transferring resources between cities as such. In "Civilization" there is a mechanics of mutually conditioned buildings - cathedrals and Co. are built in the presence of a certain number of temples, etc. Accordingly, it is possible to build a building in one city that subtracts food, and in another - a conditioned building that gives a little less food (due to transport losses, etc.)

As for the ocean beyond cultural boundaries, the most straightforward mechanics are improvements (forts) that spread culture. And formally, there is a contender for the role of "fort". The nuance is that the flagships of fishing fleets in the ocean can be "floating bases", where fresh fish is preserved for better canned food, frozen for worse canned food, etc., etc., starting with the basing of search helicopters.

However, in reality, states do not have "enclaves" in the middle of the ocean. Аnd floating bases have not stood still for years. In general, this should be considered.
 
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1. It may make sense to reclassify the blockade runner? In principle, a pair of masts with single gaff sails, paddle wheels and a pair of guns were quite common among Confederate privateers.
That would effectively extend the age of piracy quite a bit further; I'm not sure it's a good idea gameplay-wise. It would also lead to a lot of ahistorical piracy of steam fleets against sailing ones (which to my knowledge didn't happen much; surprisingly, actually, given European sentiments in the XIX century towards the rest of the world :lol: ).
2.. "Hidden nationality" is the basis of the tactics of auxiliary cruisers-raider converted from civilian vessels. That is, already in 1914, the Germans painted them in the colors of English shipping companies, and in the Second World War it came to a complete set of false lifting sides, collapsible fake pipes, telescopic masts, etc.
It was used not only for piracy, but also for covert mine productions. But it's irrelevant, yes.
A rather impressive armament (6-150 mm) was attached to the masquerade. Among other things, this made it possible to mutually annihilate with the British, uh... pocket cruisers (8-152) by opening fire from a short distance (the case of the Australian "Sydney").
Plus 1-2 hydroplanes and later - radar.
In general, the ships are quite interesting. That is, in theory, later "privateers" can use a model of a civilian vessel, with options to build from scratch or convert from a conventional transport in upgrade mode.
That would not only lead to an even more severe version of the above problem but also require me to actively create new unit classes. Also, technically speaking, these tactics were used by countries that were already at war with each other at the time, so in game terms, hidden nationality would have been redundant.
3. The problem. Later transports use either the Liberty model or the original model from Firaxis. "Liberty" is too slow-moving, and Firaxis, as always, that is, used a small American landing boat of the Second World War for the transoceanic transport model. But I saw in one of the mods a model of an Iranian auxiliary vessel.
True, rectifying this was on my long-term to-do list. I'll see if I can find better models - I think I can.
I had to reinstall whole game, so I've wiped those saves already, my apologies, didn't thought they are worth keeping.
There has to be something peculiar about your setup. What's the language of your OS? The error you posted the screenshot of triggered on a rather innocent ö, which normally shouldn't be a problem for Civ 4.
Thanks for help! Just a suggestion. Did't charismatic get shafted a bit? +1 Happy Face from City Square is quite a bit late now? Was it too good before?
Kinda. It wasn't a deliberate nerf, just a consistency thing since monuments no longer upgrade to city squares. It has always felt like one of the better traits to me anyway, so I'm ok with the change.
I have the same problem. Tried a reinstall and the cheat code fix and nothing has worked :(
From the bits and scraps I learned about the problem over time, it seems to be somehow related to the way Steam caches codecs. To anyone having the black terrain issue, please try the following fixes in order (one by one so we can learn if any particular helps):

1) If you haven't done so yet, switch to the original BtS release under Steam betas
2) Disable Steam overlay for BtS
3) In Steam settings, disable shader pre-caching.

Also, it would be good to know what your GPU is.
Also one question. Is it possible to somehow edit so you can build fishing docks, lighthouses on cities on lakes? There are lot of lakes in the game, but unfortunately they are very bad terrain to exploit. And I do not find it realistic. Many civilizations were made by fishing big lakes. Would also be fun it can spawn fish and resources :). Any reason why were lakes left so bad, that bacially nothing can improve them ?
I'll consider the best approach to this.
Yes, you can place cities so they can take advantage of lakes. They become relatively ok than. I feel like every civ fishing dock should be that gives +2 food like Indonesian unique building. And there is very small amount of islands and reefs and stuff on the map, which some civs have UI for. I don't get it why every civ game makes sea tiles crap. Aren't biggest and most important cities on the coast in Real Life? And coastal civs gets a bit shafted since there is no Coast Bias. Also seafarer would be a bit better if you get trade route for cities on rivers. Didn't Vikings use river of Russia and Ukraine to trade and reach and pillage even Constantinople. Just wish if there is some mod, or did somebody edited files for RI who hates poor lakes :)?
TBH, I disagree with your assessment. All earliest civilizations I can think of (Egypt, Mesopotamia, Harappa, early China etc) developed along major river basins but rather far away from coasts. And even to this day, if one looks at the European or Chinese population density map, there is no clear coastal bias; nor are most European capitals / largest cities coastal. The only place where the "biggest and most important cities on the coast" clearly stands is the USA (and, to a lesser extent, other post-Colonial American nations). And from my understanding it has less to do with food availability and more to do with the sea being the prevalent route for the immigrants to arrive - which meant a lot of them stayed along the coasts rather than move further inland on arrival.

While the seas have been historically very important for transportation and trade, food-wise, I'd say much less so. I don't have any hard stats on that, but I would be surprised if, at any point in history, fishing would have been a better way to feed a large urban population than farming.
The global catch is generally stable, there are overfishing problems, but they are local. The problem with realism is precisely that "Сivilization" does not reflect oceanic fishing in any way. Which began to prevail around the 60s.
True, but at the same time, the bioproductivity of agriculture also rose dramatically during the same era (the "Green revolution") - so again, without hard stats I wouldn't be able to say if the global share of sea vs land actually increased or decreased when it comes to food production.
I've always felt that you could represent that (and farming beyond the city radius) by having buildings that use food resources to produce :food:. That way each fish and whale resource from the oceans outside your city radius would give a city +1 food (with the appropriate infrastructure built). It would also effectively allow you to import food from other civs and transfer food from one city to another, and it would make livestock better, since you will now need to balance +1:health: and +1 :food: to a city of your choice against the epidemic chance and the opportunity to build a farm on that tile (I often make an effort to avoid getting pigs and cattle, for example).
I have no idea whether the AI can handle food-producing buildings, of course.
While the idea has merit, I fear it would lead to a lot of building bloat in late game. Even the four food factories are extremely suboptimal. I'd love to have buildings with variable inputs, but that is far beyond me to code, unfortunately, and with the way the system is now, it would require dozens of buildings to implement properly.
 
In my "world" there are some prerequisites that always must be fulfilled, before a major change can be discussed.

1 (the most important one): Our opponent - the AI - must be able to both "understand" and use any change. If there's one thing we don't need, then it's a weaker AI.

2 (the second most important): Changes must be supported with good arguments. For example if you can point to a "problem/need" that should be solved in one way or another ("one" can probably always come up with good arguments for this). But you should also remember, that a solution shouldn´t "hurt" the gameplay itself. A thing we do not need is a game, that becomes "boring" and unnecessarily long-winded.

3 (last but not least): The change must be possible, so that the work to implement the change does not exceed the expected result. I think everyone knows what and who I am referring to here….


*******

Apart from the above, I am quite aligned with Aantia and Pecheneg. There is something here that should be looked at with an open eye.

And I think it can be done without having to develop a lot of new code...... The problem will be our "AI". Will it be able to understand using such a change?
 
A little add-on.


I have previously played a bit with the idea of converterbuildings and more.

Look at page 431, my post from 4 Aug 22 including what is hidden (the spoiler) and my addition from 19 Aug 22.
 
In the late "Invictis" game, it pretty much is - having two food resources, you can build a cannery in any city that gives 2 units of food. The problem is that resources have to be within cultural boundaries.



Hmm, there is an obvious option for transferring resources between cities as such. In "Civilization" there is a mechanics of mutually conditioned buildings - cathedrals and Co. are built in the presence of a certain number of temples, etc. Accordingly, it is possible to build a building in one city that subtracts food, and in another - a conditioned building that gives a little less food (due to transport losses, etc.)

As for the ocean beyond cultural boundaries, the most straightforward mechanics are improvements (forts) that spread culture. And formally, there is a contender for the role of "fort". The nuance is that the flagships of fishing fleets in the ocean can be "floating bases", where fresh fish is preserved for better canned food, frozen for worse canned food, etc., etc., starting with the basing of search helicopters.

However, in reality, states do not have "enclaves" in the middle of the ocean. Аnd floating bases have not stood still for years. In general, this should be considered.
I forgot that the cannery buildings actually give you food - it just goes to show how long it's been since I reached the late industrial era!
My last two games actually ended because I didn't build any units before the first barbarian. Which segues nicely into another question: when do barbarians start spawning? Is it on a specific turn? I know it's some time in the early 3rd millennium BC, but I think I'd like to optimise a little more finely.
 
Well 5 out of top 10 biggest cites are on the coast. And yes I agree that coast is more important for trade than actually fishing. But many were inland on big rivers that lead into the sea and could basically count as being on the coast for purpose of trade or shipping. I would just be happy that lakes could be be improved somehow or that the resource can spawn on them. I do not see why fish resource could not spawn on a lake tile. What would be good is not to avoid coast tiles like the plague, and it would also open up new builds. On a lake with fish resource inland and going for fishing first for example? Lake tiles are actually quite ok when you have city on coast when you use them and can be improved.
 
My last two games actually ended because I didn't build any units before the first barbarian. Which segues nicely into another question: when do barbarians start spawning? Is it on a specific turn? I know it's some time in the early 3rd millennium BC, but I think I'd like to optimise a little more finely.
Above reminds me of one of my first games. I used my warrior to scout out the wilderness to find Goody-Huts and forgot all about babarians. Of course I saw and fighted some animals - but who cared about that? Well I didn't. Until my starting city - the only one I had - was razed by a babarian warrior....... I do not forget neither that situation, nor the feeling I got when I realised I had lost.

Which brings me to the second part of you post: I have not found anything, that would tell me when the first "solo" babarian-units (not the animals) start spawning. I have read much of the XML-code during the years, but nowhere have I found anything specific telling when. All I know is, that sometimes it happens early in the game, sometimes much later. However I have noticed, that the babarians seldom makes their cities on small islands nor do they "like" to make cities on long relative thin landbridges or peninsulas. They mostly like a good solid body (read land mass). That's my experience.
 
BH, I disagree with your assessment. All earliest civilizations I can think of (Egypt, Mesopotamia, Harappa, early China etc) developed along major river basins but rather far away from coasts. And even to this day, if one looks at the European or Chinese population density map, there is no clear coastal bias; nor are most European capitals / largest cities coastal. The only place where the "biggest and most important cities on the coast" clearly stands is the USA (and, to a lesser extent, other post-Colonial American nations). And from my understanding it has less to do with food availability and more to do with the sea being the prevalent route for the immigrants to arrive - which meant a lot of them stayed along the coasts rather than move further inland on arrival.

While the seas have been historically very important for transportation and trade, food-wise, I'd say much less so. I don't have any hard stats on that, but I would be surprised if, at any point in history, fishing would have been a better way to feed a large urban population than farming.
While I agree with this in general, one difference that has to be acknowledged is that real life cities built inland rather than coastal were not restrained from coastal fishing industries, harbors, or naval construction docks. Civ IV cities lose much more than real life cities by going inland.
 
Well, I've been hatching this idea for twenty minutes and am deeply indifferent to its implementation :D. But as an abstract argument , there are such considerations

It would also lead to a lot of ahistorical piracy of steam fleets against sailing ones

1. Hmm, the runner would "symbolize" quite real privateers of the North and South. At the same time, even the state raiders of the Southerners are not legally privateers, but pirates in general. The Confederation was recognized only by slave-owning Brazil.
2. As for the absence of steam filibusters on every corner, then…It seems to me that it is worth distinguishing between fundamental and situational factors.
3. At the same time, the final tightening of the screws in relation to privateering was provoked just by the extremely successful raid of the sailing-steam Alabama - and in relation to the by no means defenseless trade of the American North. Worse, in the 1870s, the very successfull "pirat" was... the monitor ("Huascar")
4. That is, the nuance is that there were more technical prerequisites for the heyday of raiding in the second half of the 19th century than in the Golden Age of Piracy. At the same time, the technical prerequisites themselves = the profitability of the enterprise. Plus, cargo turnover has increased "a little".

At the same time

1. The ban on privateering was more or less successfully observed against the background of a long peace between the powers that had at least some maritime capabilities. At the same time, anti-raider maritime law could not withstand the first "fundamental" conflict between states with serious fleets (WW1). Moreover, the failure was not up to a banal robbery, but much worse. I suspect that the Kaiser's Germans, with their unlimited submarine warfare, were deterred from distributing privateer patents only by the obvious inefficiency of the event.
2. The main an anti-privateer lobbyist was England, which had a rather unique combination of needs and capabilities.
3. And if we consider a purely political (not technical) alternative like "someone with naval ambitions became a hegemon in continental Europe in the 1880s and is at war with England", then the result would be predictable.

which to my knowledge didn't happen much; surprisingly, actually, given European sentiments in the XIX century towards the rest of the world

In addition to the above

1. Well, let's just say that by the second half of the 19th century, Europeans had become strong enough to rely on a centralized racket. Privateers are allowed into the sphere of robbery only if the government does not cope with this favorite function :yumyum:. At the same time, even disorganized piracy prevented Britain from making profits in the same Hong Kong.
2. The periphery was protected from steam piracy for a long time by a banal shortage of coal. Off the coast of the same China in the middle of the 19th century, it was known in exactly one place – and the nearest alternative sources were in Western India and Canada.
3. At the same time, there were non-steam Europeans, but they were lost in the local pirate serpentarium, and the Portuguese pirates from Macau who became too noticeable were destroyed ... by Chinese pirates ... with the money of the governor of Canton.
4. Then, аgainst the background of decades of unlimited maritime hegemony of one "player", the heyday of piracy would look strange at all. Both piracy and privateering are a consequence of mutual annihilation or at least the employment of "regular" fleets. At the same time, even a very sluggish confrontation in the Pacific Ocean during the Crimean War was enough that Chinese pirates and Europeans who joined them abruptly became impudent.
If the political history of the second half of the 19th century had been more militant, a second edition of the Alabama and Co. raids would have been almost inevitable.
Also, technically speaking, these tactics were used by countries that were already at war with each other at the time, so in game terms, hidden nationality would have been redundant.
Hmm ... 1. Anyway, the auxiliary cruisers of the 20th century had more technical possibilities for masquerade than ever before. The Germans depicted not even an abstract neutral, but a concrete vessel.
2. At the same time, the proxy wars of the 16th and 18th centuries in fact differed little from the same conflicts in the twentieth century - the Madrid court knew perfectly well who was behind Drake and Co.
3. The fact that aviation massively flew under a false flag in several major wars, and the fleet behaved like a good boy, looks like the result of a rather random combination of circumstances: USA and England totally dominated the sea. But but the situation is different in the air and... there was quite a limited war under the carpet in the style of Elizabeth.

True, rectifying this was on my long-term to-do list.

I'm basically saying that the Liberty is too slow-moving for an auxiliary cruiser :D . They were converted from high-speed transports (16 knots and more), up to the owners of the "Blue Ribbon of the Atlantic". And so yes, Liberty already had a high-speed twin - "Victoria." At the same time, after World War II, aviation killed high-speed transoceanic liners - and it was necessary to build equivalents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algol-class_vehicle_cargo_ship
 
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True, but at the same time, the bioproductivity of agriculture also rose dramatically during the same era (the "Green revolution") - so again, without hard stats I wouldn't be able to say if the global share of sea vs land actually increased or decreased when it comes to food production.


There is a nuance here, which is really better to show on specific figures. As Google says, the grain harvest grew in 1950-1980 from 800 million to 1550. In 2000, 2060 million, in 2020 - 3000 Fish from 21 million tons in 1950 grew to 70 million tons by 1980 and 84.4 million tons by 2020. That is, in 1950-80, the share of fishing grew much faster than the share of the main grain crops. Then stagnation occurred in the sea, but the full effect of the fish jerk has not been reset until now. In general, we had a fishy "almost a century". At the same time, we are talking only about wild marine fish, without aquaculture and fresh waters.
 
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By the way, I forgot to write. The same Iranian transport ("Delvar") is now part of the "sinister division" (c) of drone carriers, including strike ones. Large drones, apparently, are disposable – starting (from a catapult) is not a problem even in the case of a very compact ship, but parachute landing on water is difficult to implement.
That is, theoretically, there is a funny opportunity to get a drone carrier using ХML
 
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Hi in my current game i met a Barbar "
National guard trained abroad" strength: 28 in turn 74 at 2520 bc.
Maybe thats a Bug?

And I have a question. Is there a reason why it is recommend to play with tech trade off. Can the AI handle it?
 
(...) when do barbarians start spawning? Is it on a specific turn? I know it's some time in the early 3rd millennium BC, but I think I'd like to optimise a little more finely.

I researched this recently and found this: https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Barbarian_(Civ4) and this: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/difficulty-levels-spreadsheet.158130/#post-10629596
You can find the variable iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed in the XML \steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization iv beyond the sword\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4HandicapInfo.xml
 
From the bits and scraps I learned about the problem over time, it seems to be somehow related to the way Steam caches codecs. To anyone having the black terrain issue, please try the following fixes in order (one by one so we can learn if any particular helps):

1) If you haven't done so yet, switch to the original BtS release under Steam betas
2) Disable Steam overlay for BtS
3) In Steam settings, disable shader pre-caching.

Also, it would be good to know what your GPU is
None of these fixes have worked either, unfortunately. My GPU is a Radeon 6700XT, and the drivers are up to date. I've also turned off AMD's special graphics things (e.g. "Image Sharpening" and whatnot).
 
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