Realism Invictus

Only in the marginal situation where you prefer buying most of your units with gold anyway - then buying a bunch before an upgrade tech arrives and then upgrading might be a better use of gold if the production difference between upgraded and non-upgraded units is big enough. For instance, in a line infantry to rifleman case, buying a new rifleman is 145 * 4 = 580, while buying a fusilier then upgrading it is 125 * 4 + 20 * 2 + 10 = 550. While it is a net positive, I'd hardly call this ~5% difference an "abuse".
That would be using it in a fairly normal way. What I mean by abusing is delinking some strategic resources for one or two turns, building a bunch of very old units, linking the resources again and upgrading the ancient units to modern ones. Wouldn't that work?

I don't see a reason for the hammers in upgrading units to only cost 2 gold. Why isn't it also 4 gold?
 
That would be using it in a fairly normal way. What I mean by abusing is delinking some strategic resources for one or two turns, building a bunch of very old units, linking the resources again and upgrading the ancient units to modern ones. Wouldn't that work?
I should point out that under default settings, that wouldn't be a viable exploit. Unlike vanilla, at any tech level there are irregular units that don't require any resources, so you won't have that much of a production cost difference (disconnecting your firearms won't drop you from infantry to archers, merely to conscripts - and while they are cheaper than infantry, the difference is not vast), and if the unit cost scaling is on, upgrading from irregulars is prohibitively expensive in most cases, due to their cost scaling difference - but even if it were turned off, you're never down to "very old units" even when you have no resources.

More broadly speaking, I guess one could do that, if one wanted to, finding a specific unit that has the most "runway" from this. But why should I bother doing something to prevent someone deliberately going out of their way for this? If one wants an unfair advantage, isn't it easier to just give oneself lots of free stuff in WB? This is not a competitive sport, so unless it's something that comes up in normal gameplay, it isn't of much concern to me.
I don't see a reason for the hammers in upgrading units to only cost 2 gold. Why isn't it also 4 gold?
To encourage upgrading old units.
 
I should point out that under default settings, that wouldn't be a viable exploit. Unlike vanilla, at any tech level there are irregular units that don't require any resources, so you won't have that much of a production cost difference (disconnecting your firearms won't drop you from infantry to archers, merely to conscripts - and while they are cheaper than infantry, the difference is not vast), and if the unit cost scaling is on, upgrading from irregulars is prohibitively expensive in most cases, due to their cost scaling difference - but even if it were turned off, you're never down to "very old units" even when you have no resources.

More broadly speaking, I guess one could do that, if one wanted to, finding a specific unit that has the most "runway" from this. But why should I bother doing something to prevent someone deliberately going out of their way for this? If one wants an unfair advantage, isn't it easier to just give oneself lots of free stuff in WB? This is not a competitive sport, so unless it's something that comes up in normal gameplay, it isn't of much concern to me.
So, the upgrade path is such that you can't fall back to units from a different era, whatever kind of resources you may or may not have available. Right?
 
So, the upgrade path is such that you can't fall back to units from a different era, whatever kind of resources you may or may not have available. Right?
For the main infantry line, and to an extent for cavalry (you can't build any cavalry without horses up to a point, and then ). Heavy/light infantry simply doesn't have units that don't require resources, so if you don't have resources, you can't build those at all. I guess one could fall back to pre-gunpowder light/heavy infantry by resource manipulation, but the cost difference one would have is still around 2x max. Late-game mechanized units obviously require lots of different resources - no resources = no tanks, advanced planes or battleships (apparently WW1-era bombers don't require fuel, as I just saw, so that will be fixed :lol:).

Come to think of it, no-resource technicals and small transport / coast guard boats could be added too...
 
Not seen in your screenshots, probably because you scrolled the building list down, but it's likely due to forge / blast furnace building line - those are the only buildings in RI that give percentage-based production bonus tied to certain resources, and it might be stacking with the workshop building line .
Yeah maybe. Both of the cities have blast furnace though. Also, blast furnace gives +5% for coal/copper/iron - so +15% in total? I don't see how that could turn +4 hammers into +6 hammers.
 
For the main infantry line, and to an extent for cavalry (you can't build any cavalry without horses up to a point, and then ). Heavy/light infantry simply doesn't have units that don't require resources, so if you don't have resources, you can't build those at all. I guess one could fall back to pre-gunpowder light/heavy infantry by resource manipulation, but the cost difference one would have is still around 2x max. Late-game mechanized units obviously require lots of different resources - no resources = no tanks, advanced planes or battleships (apparently WW1-era bombers don't require fuel, as I just saw, so that will be fixed :lol:).

Come to think of it, no-resource technicals and small transport / coast guard boats could be added too...
Thanks for the feedback. I really don't like to abuse a game, and usually when I find options to abuse, then I try to change the rules a bit so that the option to abuse goes away. That is also based on my principle that an option to abuse means that the economical system/simulation is not fully logical. And I also don't want to have an option that the AI doesn't have. Sometimes, I restrict myself to not use an option, but usually I try to fix it with hard game rules.

I do like the concept a bit to encourage upgrading. Mostly because I like the idea that a country that had invested a lot in military in the past, a country that has had a military tradition will have an easier time to maintain and make ready its forces, also when new advances come along. But that's a kind of conceptual idea. I also still like it when it mathematically makes sense in a game and that nu abuse is possible. I liked a bit the concept of mobilization level in call to power for instance.

I understand that this mod will not undergo big changes anymore and I like lots of its concepts. But just for my curiosity, was it ever considered to let resources not be a necessity for a unit but a discount. In our real world, many countries don't have certain resources which they would need to create certain weapons (according to the game rules and real world chemistry) and some are even under UN embargo to get certain resources. But still, resources and weapons find their way if enough money is spent. Black markets are more expensive, but it is really hard to restrict resources completely. Was that ever considered?

If I were to increase the upgrade costs in my local version of the mod, would that hurt the AI or would it hurt the AI as much as it would hurt me?
 
By the way, glad to hear that you found an omission when investigating my question.

WW1 airplanes should use fuel, but maybe some future planes could work on electricity, which of course also needs some resources. 😄
 
I understand that this mod will not undergo big changes anymore and I like lots of its concepts. But just for my curiosity, was it ever considered to let resources not be a necessity for a unit but a discount. In our real world, many countries don't have certain resources which they would need to create certain weapons (according to the game rules and real world chemistry) and some are even under UN embargo to get certain resources. But still, resources and weapons find their way if enough money is spent. Black markets are more expensive, but it is really hard to restrict resources completely. Was that ever considered?
It's already a mix of both. Many resources are production modifiers for units, not binary restrictions (for instance, prime timber isn't strictly required for shipbuilding, just makes it much easier). Also, there are ways of circumventing a lack of certain resources (such as the synthetic oil plant for the lack of oil resource) or substituting them (bronze and iron are interchangeable for many uses). But then again, no amount of money would have allowed Aztecs or Incas to have cavalry without access to horses. :)

Additionally, the effect you mention is reflected in the tech progression. Over time, certain things begin to be considered ubiquitous. Late cavalry (much to Aztecs' and Incas' joy) doesn't "hard" require horses, as by then they are assumed to have spread all across the world; irregular unit line is generally armed with weapons that are supposed to be universally available at that point (basically, they don't cost any resources since people being drafted are assumed to already have their equipment, however shabby it may be). Basically, if you lack bronze/iron, you won't be able to build a swordsman (with quality weapons and relatively heavy armour), but you will still be able to build warbands - also having short swords / long knives and some kind of protection, but generally using much less metal. So yeah, that's another way of looking at it.
If I were to increase the upgrade costs in my local version of the mod, would that hurt the AI or would it hurt the AI as much as it would hurt me?
It would increase the upgrade costs. I guess everyone would have less gold lying around. Nothing would break catastrophically, at least nothing I can imagine. Overall tech progress might be a bit slower, as more commerce would be siphoned into gold instead of research globally.
 
Ok, that also makes some sense. It's not that units cannot be created but a lower availability of resources means a lesser quality. Another way to look at it. There's a lot to like in this mod. Many other big ones seem to be too much of a mix of elements without a concise goal. Only thing that I am still doubting is having both unhealth and plagues as separate soft growth blockers.

Thank you for the great mod!
 
I'd say that while it's fair for a certain situation, that's an overly narrow view. In my experience, a city in medieval era is more likely to hit a "hard cap" through :mad: rather than a "soft cap" through :yuck:. A city that hit a :mad: cap would be looking to maximise its production, and might not actually have enough purely production tiles to work. This, combined with the civic that buffs craftsmen that arrives with the same tech, makes craftsmen as a production source a viable option for the first time. The equilibrium is of course shifted further for an Industrious leader, and even further later on with Protectionism. Also note that your +1 :hammers: calculation is only true for an established city. Any new city would not have a warehouse.

It's mildly surprising that you would find :mad: more of a growth restriction than :yuck: in the medieval era, generally speaking! With monarchy and a religion (especially if coupled with traditional custom), :) is actually rather abundant in my experience, and your baths being the only available boost to :health: outside of resource variety (harder to come by earlier on when wide expansion is generally more unfeasible), makes reaching that harder to do if being mindful of not exceeding :health:, because preserving forests as one player-controlled means of dealing with this reduces farm acreage and consequently an abundance of :food: at this stage of the game.

Admittedly, it could be that I am much more conservative with chopping forests than most players, perhaps. I anticipate industrial era :health: considerations when planning core cities I intend to eventually become major :hammers: centers, and often try to preserve 4-6 forests in these key cities' BFCs (knowing how much :food: efficiency per farm will explode later on to feed the craftsmen at this time, and that clearing the land for farms will result in a low early/mid industrial ceiling when lost :food: from :yuck: and death from epidemics offsets what is gained by more farming), but then again my preferred playstyle is also one of limited growth and somewhat tall development through midgame, with a strong preference for late war, post-industrialization. That could be the reason that my :health: cap tends to be lower in the medieval era, where several players seem to prefer wide conquest (and thus, plenty of bonuses to rake in the :health:); I just find that era to be typically much more favorable to the defender in warfare (with cavalry dominating the field and :move: penalties for the attacker giving defending cavalry pride of place in choosing the field of battle), so, while I have butchered through longbow castle cities pre-gunpowder when really compelled to (and even then, you're going to need some kind of special doctrine or situationally-specific UU), it's definitely not something I aim for in medieval, and classical expansion to this scale is most often economically impossible due to the weak :commerce: infrastructure that is available then.

So yes, while your assessment holds for some situations, it is far from universal, as it hinges on the premise that :health: is the limiting factor - which may be true in some cases, but far from universal. But you are correct in that it is far from an automatic build. That said, and acknowledging your caveat of not asking for a buff, its utility did always feel a bit too marginal to me (along with the later manufactury), especially given that, as you correctly point out, it does come with a malus. I will revisit it, with a special emphasis on AI evaluation (as AI does tend to undervalue buildings that come with maluses).

Yes, actually the manufactory also feels rather weak to me, for similar reasons. I truly wasn't expecting or soliciting any kind of revision, but good to see, in any case!

Also, I just downloaded the SVN and intend to continue playtesting! I'm excited to see some of the aesthetic changes in play and experiment with the new cavalry/city dynamic.

You are arguiing how useful and powerful cash rushing is. I agree that it useful and seems scaled correctly compared to production with hammers which is still a bit cheaper. What I am saying is that production gained through upgrading a unit is twice as cheap, twice as powerful.

It looks like I actually misunderstood what you were referring to. I thought you were referring to hurrying production with gold, rather than a cost difference in upgrading with respect to scaling costs. My bad! I think what I said above still applies in the case of the former, though.

By the way, I don't plan to descale the costs of spies.

Ah, and yes, I forgot when writing this that you had wanted to make a caveat for spies when disabling the rest of the units' scaling costs. No intention to misrepresent what you said or put words in your mouth! As far as the scaling costs overall goes, however, I've gone back and forth on this one too, most prominently under the logic you mention, but I think the way that it softly models manpower (and the other various restrictions that Walter argued for) I find ultimately compelling and satisfying, especially so since the "Hearts of Iron 3 practical" argument is only applicable towards the end of the game anyway, and even that doesn't account for these other mentioned peripheral necessities.

From a sheer gameplay standpoint, I think it has an enormous impact in making overexpansion particularly challenging (which is actually rather fun, I can say from experience, when you win domination in spite of these difficulties), and it's historically plausible within the "sweet spot" of abstracted realism that this mod so excellently models, in my opinion.
 
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It looks like I actually misunderstood what you were referring to. I thought you were referring to hurrying production with gold, rather than a cost difference in upgrading with respect to scaling costs. My bad! I think what I said above still applies in the case of the former, though.
It was also not related to cost scaling. Just that hammers cost 2 gold a piece when upgrading and 4 gold a piece when cash rushing.
 
Asking again if there's any way to change the ratio of the minimap, or to fix the bug where units near the edge show up in the black space? I play on either 1:1 or 2:1 maps, and I get this problem with both.
 

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Here's another bug - on the Totestra script, even if "start anywhere reasonable" is selected, civs will NOT be placed on any part of a landmass that is cut off from the remainder by mountains. Hence, you see everyone on this standard-size map crammed in to one part of the continent when there's plenty of lebensraum just a few tiles away. Would be nice if there's a fix.
 

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Did you invent that religion where units can walk on water? It is a bit overhyped, I heard. You can only do it once with one unit during the founding of the religion.😕
 
As a certain person said to one of his friends back in the Classical Era. It's not a problem to cross that lake. Just follow me - I know where the stones are :groucho: .........
 
Some thoughts from recent play on the SVN:

- The logic for revolting slaves may need to be revisited. I'm consistently getting meandering and only partial city attacks which cause me to have to shuffle my workers around and actually fight revolts in the field rather than just defend my cities, as before.

- Aesthetic suggestion: the sprite for the epidemic could be postured a little more naturally. The way that it has all of its limbs extended seems like a default template (having seen other unit models positioned the same way). I would suggest that it hold the hourglass closer to the torso with the scythe extended, but more in front than to the side, or at least have a more natural stance overall.

- Aesthetic suggestion: plains should appear a little less chalky. I thought that the previous texture was a little too granulated, but the cool tone and cakey appearance on plains just seems a little too much. It doesn't really look like grass anymore, and it also doesn't appear semi-arid relative to actual grassland. Something to distinguish it a little more along those lines is called for, I think.

- Really liking the degree of barb intensity! I used to play with raging because the default setting almost had barbs as non-existent, but playing that way requires making the early game a tower difference, which restricts the scope of what you can aim to do at that phase. This feels like a great balance, where you are put under enough pressure that poor defense will be punished, but decent attention to your military early on is generally sufficient in managing that threat, without having to go to a ridiculous extreme of garrisoning all of your improvements or exhaustively fog-busting your immediate surroundings. Was there any change made to this in the SVN? I don't see anything in the changelog, but it feels like a night and day difference.

- The AI's preference for desert promotions should be adjusted, if possible. For some reason, civs far removed from any desert still end up promoting their units along that path, which is nice as the player but obviously not working as intended from a smart opponent standpoint.

- I feel that the Philosophy tech should either be moved or retitled. I mentioned something to this effect before (and my bad if I am failing to recall something that was already addressed), but it really feels out of place as-is. What it conceptualizes is Socratic philosophy (I think, at least) which is Hellenistic in the west and should be deep classical rather than ancient. For gameplay and balance considerations, I think it works well as a math prerequisite, but historically it feels out of place. I would suggest moving it to classical and giving it a buff, consequently.
 
- The logic for revolting slaves may need to be revisited. I'm consistently getting meandering and only partial city attacks which cause me to have to shuffle my workers around and actually fight revolts in the field rather than just defend my cities, as before.
I'm pretty sure they are just looking for less defended cities.
If in doubt enter WorldBuilder and check AI behaviour of a rebel unit. If it's city lemming then it's working as intended.

- The AI's preference for desert promotions should be adjusted, if possible. For some reason, civs far removed from any desert still end up promoting their units along that path, which is nice as the player but obviously not working as intended from a smart opponent standpoint.
I'd go as far as to make AI promote most units to combat line first and everything else after that. Though crude this change will definitely make AI much stronger in combat.
 
You could add some randomness to the AI promotions, so that the human player cannot know what to encounter and because a variance of promotions is often stronger. There is a good chance that the AI stack then has a promotion that is suitable in whatever situation arises.

I'd do something like this:
For units created for the attack: 50% chance city attack promotion, 20% strength promotion, 15% promotion against a specific unit type, 10% terrain specific promotion, 5% something else
For units created for city defence: 50% chance city defence promotion, 20% strength promotion, 15% promotion against a specific unit type, 10% terrain specific promotion, 5% something else
For units created to protect a stack of units: 30% chance strength promotion, 30% chance terrain specific promotion, 30% promotion against a specific unit type, 10% something else

The promotion against specific units types could be based on the AI's knowledge of the unit types that the opponent uses. So, if it is 60% archers and 40% melee units, then the promotion against a specific unit type should with 60% be against archers and with 40% chance be against melee units.
Similarly with terrain, check the terrain which might be used for fighting (no clue how the AI determines where it wants to fight) and base the terrain promotion on the prevalence of certain terrain types available there.
 
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