Realistic Approach Institute

[Kriku]

Dear All

It has been announced that Civ5 will be the most moddable Civ game ever. However, a number of unrealistic restrictions seems to apply to the gameplay and it is not clear whether or not they could be modded. There has been a number of highly realistic and enjoyable mods in the past. IMHO, the Vikings mod for Civ2 and the Revolution mod for Civ4 are both especially outstanding examples of excellence.

People who feel that historical realism is an important part of the Civ game are hereby invited to join the new Realistic Approach Institute social group. Modders are especially welcome. The purpose of the group is to discuss the ways to make gameplay more realistic and possibilities to model historical events in Civ.

I have been playing Civ games from the 1st version. I am a professional computer programmer and study history at university. I have tweaked past Civs for my own purposes but have not made any full-featured mods this far. However, if Civ5 really offers as good tools as promised, this will change.

All suggestions are welcome.

 

[Baldyr]

Are historical staring dates required for a "realistic" game, in your opinion? Or are you fine with 1800th century Civs starting out in the Stone Age? Just wondering what you mean by "realistic"...

 

[Kriku]

I mean that the ways of Civ expansion or collapse, development paths, unit abilities, resources, tile enhancement, landscape features and so on should be as realistic as possible. Of course the history takes a different turn each game and I have no problems with Chinese creating the first city-states instead of Sumerians. The nomenclature of the Civilizations is not that important IMHO and most of the games are played on fictional maps anyway.

However, I immensely like the Revolutions mod for adding new Civilizations during the game. I feel that it was one of the best things happening to the game ever. I stopped playing it because I could not install puppet regimes in conquered countries on the other side of the world, but in Civ5, this should change.

 

[Baldyr]

I for one don't even see myself playing anything that isn't using a world map and include historical starting dates.

Other than that, in a random/alternative history game Civs should be added during the game. I can't see any reason why this wouldn't reflect the historical era of those Civs...

 

[Kriku]

I agree that on the Earth map, Americans should not be among starting Civs. However, if the major powers left America alone and colonized Australia instead, would it be OK for Americans revolting and founding their Civ there?

 

[Baldyr]

Well, I suppose. But I'd much rather they spawn in North America - on a World map.

But I also have a issue with including the American "civilization" as such in Civ. It strikes me as a silly thing to include in the grand scheme of things - even if I realize why it has been included in all version of the game - and why it probably is the most played Civ ever. Personally I'd swap it for another Civ in a heart-beat given the chance!

 

[Kriku]

Well, it has been one of the major powers of the World for more than a century. But Sweden was also a major power and is represented only by the Scandinavians, which is rather obscure.

However, that carries us away from the main topic. What do you think about bringing people who like realistic game together? I know that frequent posters know each others preferences, especially in the circle of moderators - but lots of users are not frequent posters (incl. myself so far) and I do not know if the modding community is the best place to have more general conversations like the one above.

 

[Baldyr]

Sure, anything that benefits the community... I'm sure there many players/modders who are into realism. But I guess you'll have to define the word "realism" for the group first, so that doesn't end up being the only topic discussed.

Was there an actual link to the social group?

Or are you looking to head a Civ5 modmod (being a programmer and all)? Perhaps that should be the focus of your group then? Or you could just have a open thread on the Civ5 modding board (if there is one yet) so that more people can join in.

 

[Kriku]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/group.php?groupid=293

You might be right that perhaps we should declare that we are off to make a good realistic mod from the start. We might begin by just sharing ideas until we have Civ5 with it's customization tools in our hands.

Feel free to invite people who in your opinion might be interested. I am afraid that this little announcement might not be noticed by many.

I also posted this message to the Civ5 general discussion forum.

 

[G-Max]

Sign me up. I've always been very annoyed by certain breaks from reality in the Civ franchise, especially Civ 4. Like... why are horses invisible prior to the discovery of Animal Husbandry? Horses have never been invisible in real life. And why can only one copy of each Wonder exist? This is most blatant with the "Oracle" wonder, because in reality, dozens of Oracles were scattered throughout Greece! For that matter, why do Wonders have effects at all in the game? None of them ever did anything in real life except the Lighthouse and Library of Alexandria, which were not much different from any other lighthouse or library in the world. Even the Great Wall of China proved impotent at repelling invaders.

 

[Baldyr]

Man, you do have issues! (I don't agree with you on any of those, by the way.)

My own pet peewees would probably be that you play against historical leaders - who live for some 6000 years? (Its a core game concept, of course, and I realize what Sid's original thought process was.) Or that your populations grows because of food surplus - and that a large population becomes unhealthy and consumes more food. (Population growth should be based on a concept of nativity modified by health, and a the food supply should affect health. A food surplus late in the game could even be a negative factor, because of obesity.)

Also, I think that a resource like Horses is pretty ridiculous. Sure, at the early stages of the game it makes sense that horses are only available in regions where they are native to the environment, and thus have to be imported to other regions of the world. But later on horse breeding becomes commonplace and a strategic horse resource should not be needed to build anything from Knights to Cavalry. (Alternatives involve dynamic horse resources that appear near cities that produce mounted units, or that the Stable building provides the horse resource to the city.)

 

[Afforess]

Even the Great Wall of China proved impotent at repelling invaders.

Since this a is a thread about realism, I feel inclined to nitpick. The Great Wall worked perfectly, it's just that the Mongols bribed the guards... Next time, pay living wages to your guards.

 

[G-Max]

Since this a is a thread about realism, I feel inclined to nitpick. The Great Wall worked perfectly, it's just that the Mongols bribed the guards... Next time, pay living wages to your guards.

Really? I was told that they just used ladders and grappling hooks and stuff like that.

 

[G-Max]

Or that your populations grows because of food surplus - and that a large population becomes unhealthy and consumes more food. (Population growth should be based on a concept of nativity modified by health, and a the food supply should affect health. A food surplus late in the game could even be a negative factor, because of obesity.)

Actually, this very issue was addressed and corrected in the Master of Orion games. Population growth had nothing to do with food supply unless the population was starving. Definitely something to model future Civ games on.

 

[Afforess]

Really? I was told that they just used ladders and grappling hooks and stuff like that.

Wikipedia:

The Manchus were finally able to cross the Great Wall in 1644, when the gates at Shanhaiguan were opened by Wu Sangui, a Ming border general who disliked the activities of rulers of the Shun Dynasty. The Manchus quickly seized Beijing, and defeated the newly founded Shun Dynasty and remaining Ming resistance, to establish the Qing Dynasty.

 

[Kriku]

Population growth should be based on a concept of nativity modified by health

And happiness. I agree that the food surplus model is ridiculous. For some reason or another, modern Western states have negative pop. growth in spite of unprecedented food surplus.

 

[Kriku]

The Great Wall should be a line of fortresses not a city improvement. I cannot understand how it could be described as a city improvement in whatever layer of abstraction. Beats me completely.

 

[Baldyr]

Well, Wonders are basically city improvements, so...

 

[Kriku]

The first two members have registered! I copy-pasted some of my previous ideas to the group. Everybody else is welcome to do the same.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/group.php?groupid=293

 

[Kriku]

Yes, I think that GW bonus should be triggered by an event as in the case of The Magellans Expedition in Civ4. As you certainly remember, ME was a constructable wonder in previous versions, too. Which made even less sense than GW.