Blitz79 wrote:
Thirdly, what governments has America tried to overthrow in recent years?
Serbia
The U.S. was attempting to remove a dictator from power who had sparked 4 wars in a decade in the former Yugoslavia and regularly threatened the surrounding countries. (For instance, Milosevic claimed in a 1991 interview that my university city in southwestern Hungary, Pécs, belonged to Serbia and he threatened to come get it... We had constant flyovers by Serb jets, at least one "accidental" cross-border bombing, and Serb mines floating in the Drava River.) This was a maniac who was seriously destabilizing the Balkans in his efforts to create a 19th century-style empire for himself. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of this monster, and potentially many more could have been had someone not acted. The EU was completely ineffective, with each EU member state taking sides and undermining each other's diplomatic efforts to resolve the crisis. Washington wasn't trying to overthrow the Yugoslav form of government, and while you can certainly argue the effectiveness of American policies it would be a bit far-fetched to see American policies as some sort of imperianum.
Cuba (continuing)
I agree that the embargo is ineffective and should go, but only because I think full-blown exposure to Western culture will do more to undermine Castro than isolation. What does the AI say about Castro's Cuba? As someone who's lived in a communist country before, I say anything that does a dictatorship in can't be a bad thing. Cubans suffered under Battista's gangsterism and joined a host of different rebels to overthrow him but Castro - only one of several - simply replaced Battista's thugs and gangsters with his own.
Iraq
While they usually don't say so publically, most Moslem political scholars have said that most of the Middle East would be all too happy to see Hussein gone. He used the old Ba'athist pan-Arabism to create his own dictatorial empire and in the process earned himself the distinction of being the national leader who, more than any other world-wide, has killed more Moslems. Stalin with his persecution of the Tartars and Chechens hasn't come close to Hussein in numbers of Moslems killed. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, the Gulf states, Syria, Egypt - all have made it clear that while for propaganda reasons they can't go on the official record of supporting an infidel state (U.S.) over an Islamic state, they'd be very happy to see Iraq brought back down to size.
Also, nascent States (through assistance, finance and so forth);
East Timor
??? The Australians have been agitating about East Timor for years, and the U.S. brokered the UN solution currently in place when Indonesia descending into chaos after the ouster of the Suharto dictatorship. Armed bands loyal to Jakarta were hunting down East Timorese who advocated independence (a decades-long movement), with the level of violence spiraling. The U.S. initially advocated keeping East Timor within Indonesia, because if East Timor is let go, then the hundreds of other nationalities spread throughout the archipeligo that make up Indonesia will start getting similar ideas, which will lead to a state dissolution that will be long and bloody, and in nobody's - including Washington's - interests. The increasing violence forced Wshiongton's hand.
Kurdistan
??? One of George Bush (Sr.)'s most criticized decisions was that he allowed Hussein to stay in power in 1991, and his justification was that if Hussein had been overthrown then Iraq would most likely have come apart at the seams - leading to Sunni-vs.-Shiite-vs.Kurdish wars throughout Iraq, Turkey, Iran and potentially the upper Gulf. The U.S. half-heartedly supported the Kurds in their attempts to escape Hussein's wrath after the war, but not very well. Thousands more died at the hands of the Iraqi Army.
Lebanon/Palestine
??? The U.S. has indeed tried to broker an agreement on Palestine, although unsuccessfully so far. As for Lebanon, the only American intervention was tied to an American fear that Israel and Syria might go to war over Lebanon in 1982, seriously destabilizing the already volatile Middle East. Both countries had occupied parts of poor Lebanon to interfere in the civil war there and to stop attacks on themselves and their interests in Lebanon, and their armies had clashed a few times in incidents. The U.S. saved Arafat's butt by brokering a deal to get the PLO out of Lebanon to Tunesia and eased the Israeli-Syrian tensions - and for that effort, the U.S. got truck bombs.
Thirdly, what governments has America tried to overthrow in recent years?
Serbia
The U.S. was attempting to remove a dictator from power who had sparked 4 wars in a decade in the former Yugoslavia and regularly threatened the surrounding countries. (For instance, Milosevic claimed in a 1991 interview that my university city in southwestern Hungary, Pécs, belonged to Serbia and he threatened to come get it... We had constant flyovers by Serb jets, at least one "accidental" cross-border bombing, and Serb mines floating in the Drava River.) This was a maniac who was seriously destabilizing the Balkans in his efforts to create a 19th century-style empire for himself. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of this monster, and potentially many more could have been had someone not acted. The EU was completely ineffective, with each EU member state taking sides and undermining each other's diplomatic efforts to resolve the crisis. Washington wasn't trying to overthrow the Yugoslav form of government, and while you can certainly argue the effectiveness of American policies it would be a bit far-fetched to see American policies as some sort of imperianum.
Cuba (continuing)
I agree that the embargo is ineffective and should go, but only because I think full-blown exposure to Western culture will do more to undermine Castro than isolation. What does the AI say about Castro's Cuba? As someone who's lived in a communist country before, I say anything that does a dictatorship in can't be a bad thing. Cubans suffered under Battista's gangsterism and joined a host of different rebels to overthrow him but Castro - only one of several - simply replaced Battista's thugs and gangsters with his own.
Iraq
While they usually don't say so publically, most Moslem political scholars have said that most of the Middle East would be all too happy to see Hussein gone. He used the old Ba'athist pan-Arabism to create his own dictatorial empire and in the process earned himself the distinction of being the national leader who, more than any other world-wide, has killed more Moslems. Stalin with his persecution of the Tartars and Chechens hasn't come close to Hussein in numbers of Moslems killed. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, the Gulf states, Syria, Egypt - all have made it clear that while for propaganda reasons they can't go on the official record of supporting an infidel state (U.S.) over an Islamic state, they'd be very happy to see Iraq brought back down to size.
Also, nascent States (through assistance, finance and so forth);
East Timor
??? The Australians have been agitating about East Timor for years, and the U.S. brokered the UN solution currently in place when Indonesia descending into chaos after the ouster of the Suharto dictatorship. Armed bands loyal to Jakarta were hunting down East Timorese who advocated independence (a decades-long movement), with the level of violence spiraling. The U.S. initially advocated keeping East Timor within Indonesia, because if East Timor is let go, then the hundreds of other nationalities spread throughout the archipeligo that make up Indonesia will start getting similar ideas, which will lead to a state dissolution that will be long and bloody, and in nobody's - including Washington's - interests. The increasing violence forced Wshiongton's hand.
Kurdistan
??? One of George Bush (Sr.)'s most criticized decisions was that he allowed Hussein to stay in power in 1991, and his justification was that if Hussein had been overthrown then Iraq would most likely have come apart at the seams - leading to Sunni-vs.-Shiite-vs.Kurdish wars throughout Iraq, Turkey, Iran and potentially the upper Gulf. The U.S. half-heartedly supported the Kurds in their attempts to escape Hussein's wrath after the war, but not very well. Thousands more died at the hands of the Iraqi Army.
Lebanon/Palestine
??? The U.S. has indeed tried to broker an agreement on Palestine, although unsuccessfully so far. As for Lebanon, the only American intervention was tied to an American fear that Israel and Syria might go to war over Lebanon in 1982, seriously destabilizing the already volatile Middle East. Both countries had occupied parts of poor Lebanon to interfere in the civil war there and to stop attacks on themselves and their interests in Lebanon, and their armies had clashed a few times in incidents. The U.S. saved Arafat's butt by brokering a deal to get the PLO out of Lebanon to Tunesia and eased the Israeli-Syrian tensions - and for that effort, the U.S. got truck bombs.
.
)
