Reasons for the crashing in WTC

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
I know that TV is a slave to ratings, that was my whole point to the other poster :rolleyes:
I, too, am well aware of this. If you believe this, why do you so oppose the idea of national media trying to win the viewers or readers? The general trend of US social opinions for the last 20+ years is a lean to the conservative side. Would major news outlets do anything other than follow that trend?

Destroying a large hydroelectric dam has been a fantasy of ecoterrorism since its beginnings. Edward Abbey's book "The Monkey Wrench Gang" is premised on just such an act being pulled off. Cool idea to some, but hardly one that could actually be successful. Remember, a dam of that size is not just designed to hold back water. It is also engineered to withstand earthquakes, which are potentially far more powerful than anything some wahoos with ill intent could cook up.
 
A bit late but I think it ties into the media being slaves of ratings:

When doing stories on ignorant Americans, we don't see those that aced the test. Jay Leno doesn't air the people he interviews that know the answers to his questions. We only see four interviews on the local news, and they show 3 people who are idiots. Fair reporting would tell you how many people they interviewed to get those three interviews, and where they did the interviews. I don't think they are going to the local university when trying to get a story on how stupid a group of people are.

The reason is of course, ratings. People don't want to see good news. They want to watch the things that shock them, and or make them feel good about themselves. Seeing stupid people does that.
 
Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX


Further, would they know to target the little tiny containment building and be able to hit it directly with a plane rather than the big menancing, but non-important cooling tower?


Good point, and one I forgot about. Our plants have a closed circuit cooling system, so actually the containment buildings are the most prominent.

In the U.S. and other countries however, many people mistake the cooling towers for the reactor itself because they are so prominent.
 
Simon they could have a "back-up dam"...back-up dam/back-up plan...oh forget it :)
 
As I said, it is far too dam hard to find an proper way to go about the problem.;) Far easier when the Second Falklands War comes around to simply turn a few missile keys;)
 
We've drifted FAR off topic. Does anyone still have thoughts about the original topic of this thread? I thought the discussion was very good, and would like to hear more if people have more to say.
 
Originally posted by Sodak

I, too, am well aware of this. If you believe this, why do you so oppose the idea of national media trying to win the viewers or readers? The general trend of US social opinions for the last 20+ years is a lean to the conservative side. Would major news outlets do anything other than follow that trend?

Destroying a large hydroelectric dam has been a fantasy of ecoterrorism since its beginnings. Edward Abbey's book "The Monkey Wrench Gang" is premised on just such an act being pulled off. Cool idea to some, but hardly one that could actually be successful. Remember, a dam of that size is not just designed to hold back water. It is also engineered to withstand earthquakes, which are potentially far more powerful than anything some wahoos with ill intent could cook up.

I too am aware that the national media does try to win viewers, but I disagree that they have been catering to conservative viewers. This is why the alternative opinion/news types like Drudge and his ilk have found popularity. People just aren't buying the liberal sludge that has been spoon fed them for all eternity on the national evening news.

I guess you are addressing someone else with the dam comments? (as opposed to the damn comments :lol: )

Bill
 
Originally posted by sysyphus


Good point, and one I forgot about. Our plants have a closed circuit cooling system, so actually the containment buildings are the most prominent.

In the U.S. and other countries however, many people mistake the cooling towers for the reactor itself because they are so prominent.

Yes, and I am familiar with a closed system for cooling. I have much background as a reactor plant supervisor on submarines in our navy :crazyeyes

Begin rant...

There are some brilliant ideas on reactor plant design out there, and all of them are foriegn to the US. Ceramic encased fuel pellets, better use of pressurized water reactors and closed systems (something the US Navy has perfected). In my country, the environmentalists have successfully made it financial folley to attempt to build one.

Meanwhile the environmental impact of coal, gas, and even the favorite in my neck of the woods, hydroelectirc, are much worse than a modern design power plant.

Most people are ignorant to the fact that the Three Mile Island incident released the equivalent exposure as that of working in a brick building for a week, or a lazy sunny afternoon at the beach.

End of rant...
 
Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
I guess you are addressing someone else with the dam comments? (as opposed to the damn comments :lol: )
:crazyeyes
Yes, somebody mentioned busting dams in the talk about the nuclear power plants...
 
Dam busting is not all that difficult. You may have heard about the famous story about the bouncing bomb used by the Allies against the German Dams. If one tiny bomb could do that, imagine what thousands of pounds of Moving metal and fuel slam into a dam. It is scary to even think of!!!:rocket2:
 
Guys, I have just took part of the discussion about the International Tribunals, when something occurred to me... That is also an important matter in THIS discussion.

Here we won’t dig much in the International Courts legitimacy, of course… Let’s assume that such tribunals are legal and unquestionable. It leaves us a question to be asked:

Since U.S.A. had understandably understood the attack as an act of war; since it’s reacting with that perspective; than, I guess that the Afghans cannot be held as U.S.A. captives.

International Tribunals really should judge them, just like what is happening to Milosevic. After all, they have committed a “war crime”, that is, killing civilians.

I have heard that U.S.A. wants to judge them by their internal law, and not give them to an International Court. I am not sure about that, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

That raises question number two: That courts only works when the victim is defenseless? If U.S.A. supports what is happening to Milosevic, than, for the sake of coherency, shouldn’t it do the same about their own hated ones?

Should we understand that whoever is strong enough to make fire rain over the head of the enemies do not have to go trough the same legal channels than anyone else? Because if do, than we will never achieve a real legitimate International Court; they will always be questioned, and with good reason, as a weapon of winners over loosers.

So, what I ask you guys is:

If captured, should Bin Laden be judged in New York or in an International Criminal tribunal?

Regards :).
 
Originally posted by fredlc

If captured, should Bin Laden be judged in New York or in an International Criminal tribunal?

Regards :).

Let's face reality here: Bin Laden will take the same way out that Hitler did, i.e. he'll commit suicide when he knows that he's trapped. I'm sure he'd rather visit Allah than Alabama.

I don't think that the USA has actually delcared this to be a war. I don't know how this fits into International or American law.

The only clear definition of the attacks are that they are acts of terrorism. Does anyone know if there are any legal provisions (international or otherwise) to deal with this?

Could America claim that Bin Laden is subject to US law? Even though the acts did indeed occur on US soil, Bin Laden performed his role elsewhere.
 
Let's face reality here: Bin Laden will take the same way out that Hitler did, i.e. he'll commit suicide when he knows that he's trapped. I'm sure he'd rather visit Allah than Alabama.

Allah than Alabama... LOL. Great one.

Now, seriously, I think that you added a few good points here.

Maybe Bin Laden will jump from a bridge, I don’t know. I meant hypothetically. My point goes for any afghan captured.

I don’t know of international or internal laws about terrorism. I imagine that it must be a matter of internal law, that usually protects the countries citizens anywhere they are, and that they can internationally be applied by agreements between countries.

I may be wrong, but I don’t think that U.N. can make any “law” against it, because it is not a “State”, and not being so, do not have power to legislate, unless under approval of it’s members. If anyone else knows better, please lemme know.

Now, what is really interesting in your point…The press in general, and the American citizens that I met, always positioned themselves as in a *war* against terror.

Since what U.S.A. is doing, militarily, is, indeed, a war-like counter-strike, I naturally assumed that there WAS a declaration of war. But, now that you mentioned it, I’m in doubt. Maybe there weren’t.

Does anybody know it for sure?

Regards :).

-----------------------------------------

P.S.: by the way, there are lots of theories about what is the right jurisdiction to deal with "regular" crimes. I don't know which one U.S.A. adopts but here in Brazil, what matters is the place where the act is perpetrated.

If we imagine that it was a "regular" crime, by Brazilian law, it would be NY the place where the trial should happens, because it was there that the crashing occurred, regardless where it was planned.
 
I have followed this thread since the beginning and have seen it slowly drift off-topic. The question of liberal media bias in the US media is interesting enough, but I'm not sure it belongs in this thread. So, if anyone is still interested, I'd like to drag the thread back to the original topic.

The first thing I want to make clear before I start is that I don't in any way support the terrorist attacks. They were horrific - ironically, they were too horrific, because unlike the bombing of the USS Cole or the Khobar Towers, they have mobilised American opinion to an extent unprecedented since Pearl Harbour.

These attacks were evil, there can be no denying that. But it is not enough to blame them upon evil. There are reasons lying behind these attacks - note I said 'reason' and not 'excuse'.

Osama bin Laden, it seems to me, is using the USA as a convenient whipping boy. He hopes to ride the wave of discontentment towards the USA in the Muslim world, in order to fulfil his own political ambitions. Osama has made a great deal of his faith, but religion is merely the means to an end.

In my opinion, what Osama believes is largely irrelevant. His actions speak louder than words. What is really important, is what ordinary Muslims think about America. If Osama wants to create a global caliphate (ruled, naturally, by none other than him), then he will need ordinary Muslims to overthrow their own rulers and allow his vanguard of fundamentalists to seize control. The opinions of ordinary Muslims are key if this is to become reality.

So what DO ordinary Muslims think about America? To be honest, I think they are ambivalent. There will always be a hard core who hate America and the West. But if you talk to Muslims in person, the vast majority are at worst guardedly curious, and at best friendly and interested, about the West. Yet almost universally, they deplore US foreign policy. Someone has mentioned most of the major irritants - biased support for Israel, ineffectual sanctions against Iraq, troops deployed in Saudi Arabia.

But there is something that I think has only been touched upon. The US is not a responsible global citizen. It vigorously asserts its rights, but does not uphold its responsibilities. This makes its foreign policy truly hypocritical, and this grates on the nerves of everybody. (The US is, of course, not the only country to have a hypocritical foreign policy - but as the world's only hyperpower, it comes in for far more attention and, yes, criticism than other countries.)

Let me give you an example of this.

The US vigorously supports free trade. Right? Wrong. Two or three years ago, the US placed tariffs on New Zealand lamb to protect Texan farmers with influential contacts in Washington. New Zealand complained to the WTO, which ruled in NZ's favour. The US appealed, stalled, appealed, stalled, and is still 'working out' the removal of these trade barriers.

You probably think that this is small change compared to the events of September 11. But for a small country like NZ, this is a big deal - and an even bigger deal considering that, upon the advice of American experts, we have staked our future on the success of free trade. Can you imagine how the US would have responded if New Zealand had placed tariffs on US imports? I can already imagine the US senators lamenting the demise of the level playing field - while devising an 'anti-dumping' bill to cut foreign steel manufacturers out of the US market.

This is a rather mundane example of everyday hypocrisy. But the same line of hypocrisy can be linked directly to the war on terror. George Bush has pledged to destroy terrorism wherever it can be found. America is 'good' and anyone who disagrees with its moral crusade is now officially 'evil'. But let me ask you this: is an American life worth any more than an Afghan life? Is the death of an Afghan shepherd, killed by a stray US bomb, any different from the death of a New York office worker, killed by stray shrapnel from an exploding airliner?

I suppose that someone will turn around now and tell me that 'it had to be done' and that the Afghan's death was 'collateral damage'. I'm sure the Afghan's family will be very pleased to learn that their family member's death was in the service of a greater cause, and that because Osama bin Laden is so evil, the Afghan's right to exist had to be temporarily abrogated. Yes: the US is fighting a war. But it is not a rogue terrorist group. It is a liberal democracy and must be held to more stringent standards than al-Qaeda. If it does not need to respect the human rights of non-combatants, why is it even fighting against terror?

And now that the US is committed to stamping out terrorism and its supporters, whomsoever they may be, I wonder if it will bring the governments of France and Israel to justice? Will the people who bombed the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland Harbour finally be sent to jail? What about the people who ordered the bombing - reaching as far up into the French government as the Minister of Defence and even the President himself? We all know what the answer will be. There will be no cruise missiles fired at the headquarters of DGSE and there will be no American troops marching down the Champs-Elysees.

Even more disturbing to me is the comments from the Americans on these pages. They don't want to give any foreign aid. They don't want to participate in peacekeeping. They don't want to participate in multilateral organisations.

Yet this is exactly the time that they MUST. They have to win over popular opinion in the Muslim world. If they do not even try, then the radicals and fundamentalists will have an open stage on which to perform - and they will give the performance of their lives. Americans are missing the point if they think that the war on terrorism is going to be a shooting war. Even more than Vietnam, this is a war for hearts and minds.

The only way America can win those hearts and minds, is to show that it is not a modern day crusader. It is very easy to reduce a city to rubble, but that proves nothing. Terrorists breed in the rubble of cities and the chaos of failed states. It takes far more effort - and, yes, far more money - to build a state out of chaos. But if America does not engage with the world, then it will almost certainly have to face another September 11.

I would appreciate people's comments and thoughts about the points I have raised. Just don't flame me please!
 
Originally posted by stavro

So what DO ordinary Muslims think about America? To be honest, I think they are ambivalent. There will always be a hard core who hate America and the West. But if you talk to Muslims in person, the vast majority are at worst guardedly curious, and at best friendly and interested, about the West. Yet almost universally, they deplore US foreign policy. Someone has mentioned most of the major irritants - biased support for Israel, ineffectual sanctions against Iraq, troops deployed in Saudi Arabia.

But there is something that I think has only been touched upon. The US is not a responsible global citizen. It vigorously asserts its rights, but does not uphold its responsibilities. This makes its foreign policy truly hypocritical, and this grates on the nerves of everybody. (The US is, of course, not the only country to have a hypocritical foreign policy - but as the world's only hyperpower, it comes in for far more attention and, yes, criticism than other countries.)


I keep seeing this comment and I offer the same response: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RESPONSIBLE GLOBAL CITIZEN.

There are only nations whose governments only responsibility is to look after the interests of that nation. Any government who places the interests of other nations before it's own citizens is, by definition, a bad government and should be replaced as soon as possible.

If some nations currently appear to be "responsible global citizens" then it is due to an inability to significantly impact global events rather than any altruistic motives.

Please do not interpret this as a flame, or as my personal preference for a world model. It is simply the way things are. I am merely concerned about the tendency to point at the U.S. while ignoring our own nations failings.

Has Canada been treated unfairly by the U.S? Sure. Softwood lumber. But to concentrate on this is to ignore all the other agreements, treaties, and relationships we have built with the U.S. Basically, as a neighbour, I wouldn't trade the U.S. for any other country on the planet, so apparently the responsible behaviour of all those other nations doesn't amount to much, at least to me.


This is a rather mundane example of everyday hypocrisy. But the same line of hypocrisy can be linked directly to the war on terror. George Bush has pledged to destroy terrorism wherever it can be found. America is 'good' and anyone who disagrees with its moral crusade is now officially 'evil'. But let me ask you this: is an American life worth any more than an Afghan life? Is the death of an Afghan shepherd, killed by a stray US bomb, any different from the death of a New York office worker, killed by stray shrapnel from an exploding airliner?

I suppose that someone will turn around now and tell me that 'it had to be done' and that the Afghan's death was 'collateral damage'. I'm sure the Afghan's family will be very pleased to learn that their family member's death was in the service of a greater cause, and that because Osama bin Laden is so evil, the Afghan's right to exist had to be temporarily abrogated. Yes: the US is fighting a war. But it is not a rogue terrorist group. It is a liberal democracy and must be held to more stringent standards than al-Qaeda. If it does not need to respect the human rights of non-combatants, why is it even fighting against terror?

I must admit that this point of view is so alien to my thinking that I'm not sure I can understand it or respond to it intelligently.

To parse this attitude logically, you basically come up with the following:

1) I am not willing to accept the death of a single innocent in a war.
2) Since, in war, the death of innocents is assured, I am not willing to accept a war.

That's basically it, isn't it?

I blame the media and their focus on the pretty light show from the Gulf and the Balkans. They focus on these smart weapons and somehow come to the conclusion that mistakes are never made anymore. That the death of innocents has somehow been removed from warfare.

War is not about avoiding the death of innocents. It's about pursuing the goals of a nation beyond diplomacy.

There are only two ways to avoid unnecessary casualties in war:

1) Don't fight one.
2) If you have to fight one, end it as quickly as possible.

So now we get down to the crux of the matter:


Do you, or do you not, believe that the U.S. was justified in declaring war in response to the attack on the World Trade Center?


If your answer is yes, then you should have no further complaint. The U.S. fought the war with sufficient skill and strength to end it quickly. In that, they probably saved many more lives than if they have pussy footed around and only poked at the problem.

The also removed a regime that would have continued to cause suffering and strife in the region for years to come.

One final thought: There is another option open to the U.S. They could have sent in small groups of assassins to take out the Taliban leadership. The old .223 calibre migraine. The Israelis have been doing this for years. What would have been your opinion of this strategy? I suspect it would not be positive. Ignoring the fact that this would probably not remove the Taliban from power and would get a lot of Americans killed, it does have a better chance of avoiding the death of innocents.

Regards,
/bruce
 
Even more disturbing to me is the comments from the Americans on these pages. They don't want to give any foreign aid. They don't want to participate in peacekeeping. They don't want to participate in multilateral organisations.

If mine are some of the comments you are reffering to, let me clarify my position:

I have no problem with foriegn aid. I would like to see it better distributed and used, but I have no problem with the concept.

As for peacekeeping, I think the US has historically done more than its share. I would like to see other nations step up to the plate. I also include the warfighting in with the peacekeeping, and consider it the piece that requires more resources and sacrifice. The US is the nation that does the most of this. This also leads to resentment, because everyone knows that it was a US bomb that killed so and so's niece. Often it is better to have another group come in and keep the peace instead of US troops. The other side of this is that the rest of the world needs to step up and do some of the bomb dropping. Rhawanda is a perfect example. Any nation could have stepped in and helped to eliminate that suffering, but none did. The US should have, but so too should have a dozen other nations, and they are just as guilty.


As far as the trade issues, they are far more complex and convoluted than anything should be. Europe and the USW go back and forth over all kinds of things everyday, and when you look at it from a normal person's perspective, it is no better than a couple of 4 year olds squabling on the playground. Free trade is not a yes no proposition it is a massive undertaking that requires many many steps to be completed before it is finished. As far as being consistant, that would be nice, but it doesn't work that way. This sheep thing could be 100% the US's fault. Or it could be a retaliation for something NZ did. Which might have been a retaliation to something the US did....on and on and on.

The example that comes to my mind, and I know it is a lame one, but I'm hungry and want to eat, is:

I am working and striving and campaigning for an open and trusting society where everyone can live without fear and there is no crime, and we all trust one another. But I still lock my doors because that day isn't here yet.

I know it was weak, but hopefully you get the point.:)
 
Originally posted by stavro
I'd like to drag the thread back to the original topic.
Good idea :D

Originally posted by stavro
The first thing I want to make clear before I start is that I don't in any way support the terrorist attacks.
Isn't it ironic how this statement always preceeds the legitimizing of terrorists beliefs?

Originally posted by stavro
Yet almost universally, they deplore US foreign policy. Someone has mentioned most of the major irritants - biased support for Israel, ineffectual sanctions against Iraq, troops deployed in Saudi Arabia.
The irony is that the necessity of these functions are: Israel - aggression of Muslim extremists within country, and hostile Muslim neighbors. Iraq - Despotic Muslim ruler who uses chemical weapons on his own people. Saudi Arabai - A Muslim king and autocrat who requested them to be stationed there and has not made overtures to ask them to leave. Talk about killing the messenger...

Originally posted by stavro
The US is not a responsible global citizen.
A nation acts in the best interest of its citizens. That is what (our) government is there for. If they stopped doing that I'd start voting differently.
Oh, yeah, and there is no such thing as a responsible global citizens. Name one.

Originally posted by stavro
is an American life worth any more than an Afghan life? Is the death of an Afghan shepherd, killed by a stray US bomb, any different from the death of a New York office worker, killed by stray shrapnel from an exploding airliner?
In the eyes of the American government, YES! The Constitution demands that the government defends its citizens. There is no such provision for Afghan civilians... so to answer your question about the actions of the government then yes, any American citizens life is more valuable than any number of non-citizens.

Originally posted by stavro
Even more disturbing to me is the comments from the Americans on these pages. They don't want to give any foreign aid. They don't want to participate in peacekeeping. They don't want to participate in multilateral organisations.
Because multilateral orginizations have the tendancy to have a symbiotic relationship with the U.S., and we, being pragmatic people, like to know we're getting something for our effort, money, and prestige. Oh, yeah, and for foreign aid, most Americans support emergency relief and aid to liberal democracies. If a nation is not a liberal (I mean in the classical free market sense) democracy and you want foreign aid, CHANGE!

Originally posted by stavro
Yet this is exactly the time that they MUST. They have to win over popular opinion in the Muslim world.
I haven't had any Muslim try to win over my opinion. But I suppose that is another one of those double standards because we're rich and they're not, right?
 
Originally posted by Greadius:

"A nation acts in the best interest of its citizens. That is what (our) government is there for. If they stopped doing that I'd start voting differently."

i have to agree with you. Using this allegory of global citzens let´s suppose that the wealthy and powerful usa citizen gets hurt suddenly by the poor , weak and unknown afeghan citizen. the rich man would obviously whatever is possible to "punish" this citizen. as well, every country in this world is deliberately trying to defend its own interests because this is the human nature.

just my point.
 
Originally posted by Greadius
Good idea :D

Isn't it ironic how this statement always preceeds the legitimizing of terrorists beliefs?


Hold it now, don't accuse people of legitimatising terrorism because they're discussing this issue.

I'm sorry that if a discussion of world issues drags out a bit of American dirty laundry, but don't go accusing people of holding anti-American sentiments and endorsing terrorism.

We're only discussing what's going on in the heads of the terrorists, no one has said that it's legitimate.
 
Originally posted by DingBat
Has Canada been treated unfairly by the U.S? Sure. Softwood lumber. But to concentrate on this is to ignore all the other agreements, treaties, and relationships we have built with the U.S. Basically, as a neighbour, I wouldn't trade the U.S. for any other country on the planet, so apparently the responsible behaviour of all those other nations doesn't amount to much, at least to me.

Since I hate to see a thread go back on topic, I'll just add that IMHO the Americans have been more than fair there, too. There's more than a few Canadian lumber analysts who will - in private - admit that we subsidize lumber through the stumpage system.

So, now that's out of the way, the only real bones we have to pick with the US are:

(1) winning the Stanley Cup all the time (as one US Governor put it to some visiting Cdn. Premiers, "now you can all come to the arena and watch our Canadians beat your Canadians")

(2) calling Chretien "Poutine," which is not so bad in my view, and

(3) BOMBARDING US WITH THEIR LIBERAL NEWS MEDIA :lol:(hahahaha)
 
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