Recent changes: The winners and losers

[pineappledan]

There have been a lot of changes in the last few patches, and I, for one, don't think all of them have been steps forward.

This thread is to discuss changes that you think have been good/bad that are worth keeping/reverting, and discussing the merits of what we have gained with the new changes vs what we have given up.

 

[pineappledan]

I'll start this with 2 topics that stick out to me: the tech changes to pyramids and composite bowmen

Pyramids:
Pyramids used to unlock at Calendar, but was moved to Mining a few patches ago. The free settler on a non-settler path tech has presented a very interesting choice, but as a result has hurt the wonder overall. That early settler, with no food freeze or -1, or cost boost to later settlers means that Pyramids is a very good wonder at a 1st-level tech, so it lost the -25% worker improvement rate to keep it balanced. I think that has severely hurt the pyramid's flavor, because it is functionally 11GEP for the remainder of the game. As a permanent wonder bonus, that's just sad. If pyramids being comparable to a monument in power for the remainder of the game is what needs to be done to balance the settler, then I don't think it was worth it.

The worse part of the change, however, is what has happened to Terracotta as a result. Terracotta used to be one of the most interesting and dangerous wonders in the game, but people generall thought it was not broken. More attention has been paid to the oracle as a balance threat than Terracotta. Now the Terracotta gives 20% improvement rate (5% less than the old pyramids), and 10culture on kills (worse than Authority's opener), scaling with era. The numbers are so low that Terracotta is a bad building, not just a bad wonder. The Greek Acropolis gives 25 on kills and 5 border growth in all cities, for comparison. Even if the numbers were raised on Terracotta so that it was decently powerful, it has still lost a ton of its fun factor. The free army it gave people was far more interesting than this current iteration.

TL;DR - the pyramids tech change has been bad for Pyramids, but it's been disastrous for Terracotta

Composite Bowmen:
This change is something I actually support, but it's been half-assed, and I feel like we haven't seen a full implementation of these changes yet. Composite bowmen was moved forward to Writing, but kept its stats the same. This was supposed to address some major issues with the unit:

• Currency - the bowman's old tech - wasn't a high priority tech, which meant that people were often unlocking CBows while other people were unlocking knights. a 25CS, 4 moves matchup vs a CBow's 11CS meant that these units were born to die at this tech level. CBows had no window to actually be used, so it felt like a wasted unit that just never saw action. Moved forward, CBows can have a nice time fighting against swordsmen and horsemen before ranged units get shelved for mounted in medieval
• At the new tech level, CBows have some play, but it raises some concerns:
  • Mayan Atlatlist's earlier unlock used to be their biggest feature, now that doesn't even exist. Why have we gone 2+ months with no compensation to the maya after their UU turned into what is essentially a cosmetic change?
  • Why weren't the CS/RCS numbers for CBows ever reassessed at this new tech level? Moreover, Babylon went from functionally not having a UU to having one of the biggest bullies on the block. With a little distance from those 25CS medieval monsters, we can afford to use these ranged units, but not if they are going to have these base stats.

Composite bowmen are currently 12/11, Consider those numbers against spearman's 11CS, and horseman's 13CS. To put this into perspective:

• A comp bow has 100%/85% of the CS of a spearman/horseman
• crossbows the same situation as CBows; they unlock 1 tech after pikes and knights.
  • Crossbowmen have 20/15, compared to pikeman's 17 and a knight's 24.
  • Crossbows have 88%/63% of a Pikeman/Knight's CS.
• Musketmen unlock 1 tech behind tercios and at the same level as lancers.
  • Muskets have 31/22, compared to Tercio's 25 and lancer's 37.
  • Muskets have 88%/59% of tercio/lancer's CS

TL;DR - Comp bows tech change was good, but the unit need a nerf. The math makes this pretty obvious.

 

[Guynemer]

While I agree the TCA could use a significant bump, I don't want to go back to the old one. It was too "gamey"; you hold back on upgrading one warrior, archer, etc. while upgrading the rest of them, so you get another free unit. Not friendly to the AI.

I don't disagree that it was more fun before; I guess this comes down to how we balance fun vs. fairness.

 

[Stalker0]

TL;DR - the pyramids tech change has been bad for Pyramids, but it's been disastrous for Terracotta

• crossbows the same situation as CBows; they unlock 1 tech after pikes and knights.
  • Crossbowmen have 20/15, compared to pikeman's 17 and a knight's 24.
  • Crossbows have 88%/63% of a Pikeman/Knight's CS.
• • Comp bows need a nerf, and the math is pretty obvious.

1) I think the new pyramid is fine, its provided a new alternate opener that is strong and balanced to other openers. The pyramid provides a big boost when it comes out, and then a minor benefit for the rest of the game, and that boost comes so early that is makes a big difference. Not every wonder has to provide big long term bonuses, nothing wrong with the occasional wonder that is big up front, and slight down the road.

2) The only argument I make to your math is that Crossbows should be compared to Longswords not Pikes. While I agree that c bows compare to spears (iron is sometimes scarce at this point and swords are often still far away tech wise), by the time you are a crossbows, the player has had plenty of time to mass either Knights and/or Longswords.

That said, I think your point is valid that c bows are quite strong.

Now, my one concern with the C bow nerf is that when you are behind in tech (which humans often are at this point in the game versus high difficulty AIs), you are often facing Knights before you have equivalent medieval tech. The c bow effectively becomes your defensive weapon against knights. They can do okay (which does point to their power), but a committed knight player will steamroll c bows if the player makes any mistakes. I think along with the c bow nerf we should consider if pikes should come a tech earlier or something, to provide a better counter to knights than c bows for lower tech level.

 

[MarvelOfRain]

I'll start this with 2 topics that stick out to me: the tech changes to pyramids and composite bowmen

Pyramids:
Pyramids used to unlock at Calendar, but was moved to Mining a few patches ago. The free settler on a non-settler path tech has presented a very interesting choice, but as a result has hurt the wonder overall. That early settler, with no food freeze or -1, or cost boost to later settlers means that Pyramids is a very good wonder at a 1st-level tech, so it lost the -25% worker improvement rate to keep it balanced. I think that has severely hurt the pyramid's flavor, because it is functionally 11GEP for the remainder of the game. As a permanent wonder bonus, that's just sad. If pyramids being comparable to a monument in power for the remainder of the game is what needs to be done to balance the settler, then I don't think it was worth it.

The worse part of the change, however, is what has happened to Terracotta as a result. Terracotta used to be one of the most interesting and dangerous wonders in the game, but people generall thought it was not broken. More attention has been paid to the oracle as a balance threat than Terracotta. Now the Terracotta gives 20% improvement rate (5% less than the old pyramids), and 10culture on kills (worse than Authority's opener), scaling with era. The numbers are so low that Terracotta is a bad building, not just a bad wonder. The Greek Acropolis gives 25 on kills and 5 border growth in all cities, for comparison. Even if the numbers were raised on Terracotta so that it was decently powerful, it has still lost a ton of its fun factor. The free army it gave people was far more interesting than this current iteration.

Pyramids feel fine. As you said the settler is quite strong and they are not the type of Wonder that should give a bunch of long term benefits. Maybe a bit of faith on it would be nice, so you can still have a chance on getting religion if you go for the Pyramids - now going for Pyramids essentially requires you to sacrifice a chance for religion. Or free settler and free monument with no other bonuses (quite flavourful from a historical perspective too)? That way you could do Shrine first.

Terracotta honestly needs just a bit of number balancing, but I agree that it feels rest interesting now. The fact that the two bonuses don't play well with each other is also a big deal.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

A couple of changes that concerned me generally not just in the last couple of patches
Spain : I really never liked that change at all; it made Spain UA feels like a collection of spare parts borrowed from other civs, food was really interesting as it was the only civ able to make their capital grow by conquering other cities .... i really hope this change gets a second thought.

Great works :
Losing 1 in favor of 1 is really strange imo, Tourism was never a valuable yield until the very late game and losing 1 culture feels unnecessary to make up for the tourism yield bump.

Garden :
One of the changes i really like most was the removal of unnecessary river tile requirement.

Herbalist :
a long time ago it used to add a flat one on forests & jungles it would be nice if this gets reconsidered.

UU with logistics :
Cho-Ku-Nu & Slinger change was huge IMO, the fact that they used to start with a promotion available at level 5 is just absurd and it allowed them to gain double the amount of XP from the moment they were produced was extremely ridiculous.
Maybe SOTL could see also see a change too ?

 

[John.B.C]

Not being able to swap great works is something I don't like - it just never happens... There's no point going for anything else than theming what can be themed with your own, thus popping all writers artist after that.

 

[randomnub]

I'm still not sold with the skirmisher line rework, but due to archer line being plain OP I am not experienced enough with the mounted line rework at all, I use my supply elsewhere. Composites move to Mathematics makes Atlatists beg for a buff though (and a -1/2 rcs/cs nerf overall).

Spain UA should go back to imo, now it's not unique at all, Carthage does the gold part better.

Terracotta is... meh. Honestly I can't come up with any idea that'd make it unique but at the same time not player-exploitable as it was, so w/e.

 

[pineappledan]

Spain : I really never liked that change at all; it made Spain UA feels like a collection of spare parts borrowed from other civs, food was really interesting as it was the only civ able to make their capital grow by conquering other cities .... i really hope this change gets a second thought.

Hoo boy, don't get me started on Spain. I have made a rework for them using existing code, and I'm very happy with the results, so I'm just gonna leave it there.

Great works :
Losing 1 in favor of 1 is really strange imo, Tourism was never a valuable yield until the very late game and losing 1 culture feels unnecessary to make up for the tourism yield bump.

I think the +2 on museums that came this patch is sufficient. I agree that restoring the 33 would be best. I played a game with Philippines, trying to go for a science victory, and I forgot how little impact GWAMs had on my victory progress now. 50% less science on GWs really makes staffing your guilds an unattractive prospect.

 

[MarvelOfRain]

Great works :
Losing 1 in favor of 1 is really strange imo, Tourism was never a valuable yield until the very late game and losing 1 culture feels unnecessary to make up for the tourism yield bump.

Yeah, that one feels really weird to me. Outside of Tourism games it is also straight up nerf to culture which already is quite hard to get and makes all the culture GP much less valuable, which is a shame since it also lowers the effectiveness of popping them late-game. Artists and Musicians, in particular, are almost of no use to most civs now since they get theming bonuses very late into the game and until then you get almost nothing from them. At least you can still put great works of writing into amphitheaters for that extra +4 Culture.

Not being able to swap great works is something I don't like - it just never happens... There's no point going for anything else than theming what can be themed with your own, thus popping all writers artist after that.

It works in weird ways in the last couple of patches. The AI still can do trades but I have noticed late into the game when you actually start to care about them they stop. You probably have to plan into the future with them. Which is more effort then what I am willing to put into theming.

 

[ProCatGamer]

UU with logistics :
Cho-Ku-Nu & Slinger change was huge IMO, the fact that they used to start with a promotion available at level 5 is just absurd and it allowed them to gain double the amount of XP from the moment they were produced was extremely ridiculous.
Maybe SOTL could see also see a change too ?

In my opinion, I feel that the Chu-Ko-Nu* should have their logistic promotion back as that was the main reason why it's called a Chu-Ko-Nu (which means repeating crossbow)

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Hoo boy, don't get me started on Spain. I have made a rework for them using existing code, and I'm very happy with the results, so I'm just gonna leave it there.

I would like to try this, where can i get it ?

 

[pineappledan]

Link is in my signature

 

[CrazyG]

Great Work Culture: I can feel this as tradition. 3/3 is better IMO, tourism is in a fine spot, and great works have non tourism purposes too
Themeing: the only buildings I can theme are the boring ones like amphitheaters, because they only want 2 of my own

Pyramids: fine. It's a good wonder worth building in some circumstances. Can really help a low food start. I never built it when it was at calendar.

Terracotta: I agree it has problems (but the problems aren't caused by the pyramids). It was changed for AI compatibility, maybe it should be changed to an AI compatibly version of the old effect. Just spawn like 5 pre-determined military units, and it can keep the worker bonus. Currently its a pretty boring wonder.

Spain: Carthage is a good civ, right? Well Spain just takes a giant crap all over Dido, it's like playing Carthage with a free hero worship and a free naval version of zealotry. Conquistadors are crazy. The mission is really overtuned IMO, it was balanced at a time when food wasn't valuable. Spain and England are part of my "please nerf tier"

Archer Units: It's been discussed elsewhere too. I think the priority is archers and comp bows, but I can believe that crossbows or muskets need to lose a point as well.

Sheep: it isn't a recent change, but these are usually worse than empty hills. Mine with a forge gets 5 hammers, sheep gets 2 food, 2 hammers, 1 gold. Mines get another production at steel. Pastures in general aren't great without fealty.

 

[TranceBlossom]

Terracotta: I agree it has problems (but the problems aren't caused by the pyramids). It was changed for AI compatibility, maybe it should be changed to an AI compatibly version of the old effect. Just spawn like 5 pre-determined military units, and it can keep the worker bonus. Currently its a pretty boring wonder.

I really hate the new Terracotta, its bonuses are a random hodgepodge that aren’t even good. Even if the old Terracotta was gamey and not Ai-friendly, at least it was fun. I like the idea of a pretedermined set of free military units, it keeps the fun facet of the old one while making it fair for the AI.

EDIT: i also don’t mind the new pyramids tbh, like CrazyG said, it allows an alternate opening strategy that can especially help low-food starts

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler An AI Friendly Terracotta Suggestion :

+1 culture
+1 Great Engineer Point
Gain 5 unit supply and 2 horses in the city this was built. A free spearmen, horsemen, chariot archer, archer, and catapult appear near the city. Worker improvement increased by 25%.

You get an army, like the old version, but this format is more AI friendly. You get 5 supply and 2 horses from the wonder, so no forward planning is needed. The exact composition of the free army could be tweaked. The worker thing is actually really useful for a warmonger who needs to keep rebuilding roads and repairing pillaged tiles. I think this wonder would be flexible and worth building in many circumstances.

 

[crdvis16]

Pyramids feel fine. As you said the settler is quite strong and they are not the type of Wonder that should give a bunch of long term benefits. Maybe a bit of faith on it would be nice, so you can still have a chance on getting religion if you go for the Pyramids - now going for Pyramids essentially requires you to sacrifice a chance for religion. Or free settler and free monument with no other bonuses (quite flavourful from a historical perspective too)? That way you could do Shrine first.

Terracotta honestly needs just a bit of number balancing, but I agree that it feels rest interesting now. The fact that the two bonuses don't play well with each other is also a big deal.

I'm currently able to get Pyramids pretty consistently on Deity without sacrificing much of anything by going Tradition and opening:

Shrine-monument-Pyramids

You just invest in the monument to speed the build time to get through all 3 fast enough. Pyramid/Stonehenge tend to go ~T40 on Deity.

Pyramids are pretty damn strong IMO. The GE point comes at a time when you don't have much of them otherwise. You'll get an early game GE that can guarantee another early game wonder (even earlier if you go Tradition and work the free GE specialist). In my current game I used that super early GE to also grab Great Library.

Stonehenge and Pyramid prioritization by the AI should probably be changed. AI should be building them after researching their respective techs first and building them as their 2nd building. Ideally, monument first and then either wonder with no delay. Otherwise a human player will be able to pretty much guarantee they get either one even when not having to really sacrifice to do so.

 

[MarvelOfRain]

I'm currently able to get Pyramids pretty consistently on Deity without sacrificing much of anything by going Tradition and opening:

Shrine-monument-Pyramids

You just invest in the monument to speed the build time to get through all 3 fast enough. Pyramid/Stonehenge tend to go ~T40 on Deity.

Pyramids are pretty damn strong IMO. The GE point comes at a time when you don't have much of them otherwise. You'll get an early game GE that can guarantee another early game wonder (even earlier if you go Tradition and work the free GE specialist). In my current game I used that super early GE to also grab Great Library.

Stonehenge and Pyramid prioritization by the AI should probably be changed. AI should be building them after researching their respective techs first and building them as their 2nd building. Ideally, monument first and then either wonder with no delay. Otherwise a human player will be able to pretty much guarantee they get either one even when not having to really sacrifice to do so.

I play with raging barbs and mostly use the gold to buy a warrior, but I will certainly try it.

I don't, however, think it should be changed too much. For example, in this game, I was able to knock out Japan on Immortal Standard speed because he was building Stonehenge and have almost 0 military. If he went Stonehenge as his 2nd build it would have been even easier. Also there is nothing that wrong with Players being able to get early wonders. That is one of the appeals of vox populi vs standard civ. If you need to sacrifice a lot to get them they just stop being an option and reduce complexity.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Given how everyone here seems to love hating on the new terracotta army I know this is gonna be a hot take but i really like it as a way to not make the war process for non authority players a complete loss; imo it's better this way as it's not as exploitable as the original one and it's current implementation is worth one social policy.... the numbers on it just needs to get a bit higher because it really falls off after medieval/renaissance.

 

[Stalker0]

You just invest in the monument to speed the build time to get through all 3 fast enough. Pyramid/Stonehenge tend to go ~T40 on Deity.

That seems a bit late. I tend to find that I need pyramids by turn 30 to "basically guarantee" building it on Immortal. The only time I've gotten foiled was an America who built it on like Turn 27. Now I have seen pyramids go on Turn 38 or so here and there, but plenty of turns 30 and 31 as well.