Recon units too powerful?

[Sarisin]

Bottom line: Bears are important because they give free happy and culture (no Carnival needed), and come early in the game. Lions, Tigers, Gorillas, and Wolves less important, they're more icing on the cake. If you can get all of them of course you can get the wonder that gives yet more happiness.

So, I'd say, bears, spiders, and hippogriffs are the key animals.

I agree with your points, but it's funny in that I almost never see any Hippogriffs in my games. However, I DO always seem to get plenty of Lizards. For me, those animals are the exploit. Their downside is they do not provide the happiness, etc. the others do and they cannot move on to tundra and ice tiles. But, they do seem to upgrade very quickly and I am able to field a small army of unstoppable Thunderlizards with their Lightning Breath fairly early in the game. That lowly Lizard is easily captured by a Scout, then after enough battles you get that Thunderdude who often produces more Great Lizards after successful combat.

Yeah, it is an exploit and will likely disappear in the next version, but it WAS fun while it lasted. Exploits should be canned, I guess, but I find often they are the only way you can win at the higher difficulty levels.

 

[Cuteunit]

Hippogriffs are aerial transports capable of crossing ocean with move 4. Why bother with ships? They also transport unescorted settlers over land because they can drop the settler, who can build a city instantaneously without fearing animals.

Your extra hippogriffs can go into Cages to give airlift capability anywhere in your empire.

Exagerrating foolio is exagerrating.

Are you playing on Chieftan with barbarians turned off or some other nub outlier case? Animals are not nearly common enough in any REAL GAME for their settlement bonuses to unbalance anything. Quite the opposite.

No, recon units are not overpowered because the FFH combat system is built around promotions and Recons can't get most of the truly powerful promos (shock 2, march, etc)

 

[Cuteunit]

oh and it's funny that folks are acting like the Grand Menagerie isnt the hardest wonder to get in the whole game, so hard to get that there's actually a trophy for getting it.

 

[Valkrionn]

And two of the more powerful mechanics I'm talking about use Spiders and Hippogriffs only. Both of them make more if you keep 2-3 of them around and eat a bunch of goblins. It's no problem at all to take 1 spider and turn it into a lot more spiders.

Yeah.... As I've said, that is entirely gone, aside from the one exception of Sabretooths spawning Hyenas. Animals also don't upgrade from combat. Big changes, in both the barbarian animals and in how you use them.

 

[Wodan]

No. Did you miss the part where I said "very favourable maps"?

Hunters can capture a few animals, but by the time I have Rangers there are so few animals around that taking Subdue Animal is almost pointless.

I'm beginning to suspect that you play on small or crowded maps. Is that the case?

It *is* the case that I play on Huge maps usually. I do add additional AIs to the default, however.

Regardless, would you agree that the game should be designed such that all maps are balanced?

I'm lucky if I encounter one Hippogriff in the game. And usually that one Hippogriff comes early and loiters outside my capital; ready to pick off any workers that try to improve the land.

My last game had tons of hippogriffs. I don't know why. But, regardless, see my previous point about one making more.

So you rarely take Subdue Animal, not just on Hunters but Rangers as well? Seems like you haven't really explored the power of this promotion. Which is the point of this thread. May I suggest in your next game you alter your game strategy to purposely try to use and abuse it.

Of course. The AI enemies, however, are smart enough to raze them. ("Smart" because they cant use the animals, but I can.)

In my experience the AI leaves dens alone about half the time. Enough that it's worth it to leave them intact. But, it's a judgment call, and you can hardly go wrong by going ahead and taking it out (plus the guardian, which, after all, is another animal which you capture).

Barbarian spawns peter out once I get enough spiders to eat them. Enemy civs kill unsupported spiders, requiring war to get them reproducing. And considering how weak the AI is at warfare, I don't really need good units to beat them.

The point is to use spiders against civs you aren't ready or don't want to fight. Such as your allies.

And, all the spiders you capture or create through combat can be turned into 1 Spider Den per city, which makes silk to be traded or used for the Menagerie Gypsy guild.

In my experience, a "couple" of unsupported spiders can manage to be a nuisance for a while, until the AI randomly moves in a scout and they are massacred by a stack of 40 champions.

Yes, that's a danger, but I don't let them get too far away from my borders, and send them in pairs. Go in, kill, retreat to heal. Rinse, repeat. Baby spiders are great for taking workers, which lets them grow.

Spiders are also quite reliable, but hard to get in the quantities you imply.

See above re: maps.

Other than that, relying on capturing anything is foolhardy.

Where did that come from? Nowhere did I say I relied on it.

All it takes to get the most from animals is going for Hunting first, then making 2-3 Hunters.

From there, you can build whatever you want with your cities; make Champions to your heart's content, if that's what floats your boat. Animals are pure gravy. The gravy lets your cities grow faster, lets you build more offensive units, lets you capture enemy cities faster, lets you tech faster.

But, if for whatever reason this bounty of animals doesn't happen, you're not out any resources. You still have your 2-3 hunters, which are good combat units early game.

Then where did you get the 15 figure from? Bear, Spider, Silk is three. Does the hippogriff give happiness? Even with all the cages, 15 sounds like a lot.

Yes, hippogriff cage gives happiness. Looking at the XML to make this list: So does Lion Cage, Gorilla Cage, Tiger Cage, and Lizard Cage. Grand Menagerie gives 2, Silk gives both itself plus Theatre Masquerade / Tailor / Temple of the Gift. And multiple Silk can be traded away for as many other happy resources as you can find trading partners. 15 total is what I had at the end of my last game. I can imagine someone could beat that.

Much of this depends on the map. On the kind of maps I play, animals are a sort of optional extra. Your maps obviously favour animals.

See above re: maps. Bottom line, I think that argument is basically saying "discount my opinion because my map settings don't have a lot of animals". Not sure why you would advance such an argument as rationale that the mechanic is OK. (The rationale is self defeating.)

Are you playing on Chieftan with barbarians turned off or some other nub outlier case?

I play on Immortal.

Animals are not nearly common enough in any REAL GAME for their settlement bonuses to unbalance anything. Quite the opposite.

Any supporting evidence for this opinion, please?

No, recon units are not overpowered because the FFH combat system is built around promotions and Recons can't get most of the truly powerful promos (shock 2, march, etc)

1) They don't need those promos because they get ungodly # of experience fast. When you have Combat IV, Drill IV (etc), the absence of Shock isn't really felt.
2) They get Spiders, Lizards, etc. who likewise get huge #s of experience fast.
3) Nothing prevents you from doing this AND getting other units. All I suggested was to go for Hunting as the first non-warrior unit.

oh and it's funny that folks are acting like the Grand Menagerie isnt the hardest wonder to get in the whole game, so hard to get that there's actually a trophy for getting it.

I didn't see anyone state anything of the sort. Good point, but stated as you did it's a strawman.

For me, I tend to get it about 1/3 of the time. Usually it's the Gorillas which are hardest to get.

Yeah.... As I've said, that is entirely gone, aside from the one exception of Sabretooths spawning Hyenas. Animals also don't upgrade from combat. Big changes, in both the barbarian animals and in how you use them.

Thanks Valk

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm beginning to suspect that you play on small or crowded maps. Is that the case?

It *is* the case that I play on Huge maps usually. I do add additional AIs to the default, however.

Regardless, would you agree that the game should be designed such that all maps are balanced?

Honestly, that would be virtually impossible. Just look at the difference in barb activity between a regular map and an Erebus map (god, how I hate that map); You'll never have something that could be considered balanced on both, as the map is fundamentally different. The same holds true (to a lesser amount) on other maps.

Honestly, the only maps I recommend are ErebusContinent, and PerfectWorld2. ErebusContinent (particularly with his newer features) is my go-to map; PW2 is only if I want a huge map.

My last game had tons of hippogriffs. I don't know why. But, regardless, see my previous point about one making more.

Issue with the appearanceprob values on animals; It's a random number from 0 to the value set, so if it's too low you can get a situation where the same animals spawn (because of the number generator); All values are MASSIVELY increased for the next version (50 -> 10000), so you should see more variability in animal spawns.

So you rarely take Subdue Animal, not just on Hunters but Rangers as well? Seems like you haven't really explored the power of this promotion. Which is the point of this thread. May I suggest in your next game you alter your game strategy to purposely try to use and abuse it.

I'm honestly not sure if the next version will fix this or not; I will say that animals will have a use beyond their cage, and will no longer be useful (well, early game at least) for harassing your enemies.

In my experience the AI leaves dens alone about half the time. Enough that it's worth it to leave them intact. But, it's a judgment call, and you can hardly go wrong by going ahead and taking it out (plus the guardian, which, after all, is another animal which you capture).

The point is to use spiders against civs you aren't ready or don't want to fight. Such as your allies.

And, all the spiders you capture or create through combat can be turned into 1 Spider Den per city, which makes silk to be traded or used for the Menagerie Gypsy guild.

Spiders are no longer HN. Except for Archos spiders. Which now show the Animal civ flag, which was the whole point of wild spiders still being HN; Allows the Archos units to blend in. No longer needed.

 

[Wodan]

The game should be designed such that all maps are balanced?

Honestly, that would be virtually impossible.

It's certainly possible. It's two things that cause it to be powerful, IMO:
1) the aggregate (if you go into the animal strategy, you get a LOT of little bonuses which add up)
2) some of the bonuses are scalable (to wit: getting a happy resource with every Spider captured, which is tradeable for resources you don't have, which gives that resource to every city in your empire for each and every trade you do, or adds and to every city in your empire with Masquerade)

So, to make it balanced on all maps, somehow reduce the aggregate (maybe you have to have a Zoo rather than be able to put cages throughout your empire?), and somehow change the scalable nature of some of the bonuses (maybe ALL spider cages add ONE Silk, no matter how many cages you have).

Honestly, the only maps I recommend are ErebusContinent

This is what I play.

I might try out PerfectWorld2.

Issue with the appearanceprob values on animals; It's a random number from 0 to the value set, so if it's too low you can get a situation where the same animals spawn (because of the number generator); All values are MASSIVELY increased for the next version (50 -> 10000), so you should see more variability in animal spawns.

Awesome!

I'm honestly not sure if the next version will fix this or not; I will say that animals will have a use beyond their cage, and will no longer be useful (well, early game at least) for harassing your enemies.

I'm looking forward to the changes. When do you think it'll happen? Or, are we waiting on Opera's thing to roll it all out at once?

Spiders are no longer HN. Except for Archos spiders. Which now show the Animal civ flag, which was the whole point of wild spiders still being HN; Allows the Archos units to blend in. No longer needed.

Hmm, ok. But they'll still make Spider Cages, add Silk, have a chance to make a new spider after combat, and can be used in combat vs. animals and barbs?

Being able to use Spiders as NA, frankly, is ancillary to the concerns I have. My concerns are really with the happy and bonuses.

 

[Nadrak]

I don't know, but my recon units are ALWAYS eaten by something in the wild...they are not capturing anything...maybe it's just my bad luck

 

[Valkrionn]

It's certainly possible. It's two things that cause it to be powerful, IMO:
1) the aggregate (if you go into the animal strategy, you get a LOT of little bonuses which add up)
2) some of the bonuses are scalable (to wit: getting a happy resource with every Spider captured, which is tradeable for resources you don't have, which gives that resource to every city in your empire for each and every trade you do, or adds and to every city in your empire with Masquerade)

So, to make it balanced on all maps, somehow reduce the aggregate (maybe you have to have a Zoo rather than be able to put cages throughout your empire?), and somehow change the scalable nature of some of the bonuses (maybe ALL spider cages add ONE Silk, no matter how many cages you have).

Think you misunderstood there; I didn't mean on all map sizes, I meant on all MAPS. There are fundamental differences in some maps that make it extremely difficult to balance for both.

Honestly, I'm thinking my new barb system should help with that concern; The animals should be a bit harder to get.

I'm looking forward to the changes. When do you think it'll happen? Or, are we waiting on Opera's thing to roll it all out at once?

No idea, as we're still working on several things.

Hmm, ok. But they'll still make Spider Cages, add Silk, have a chance to make a new spider after combat, and can be used in combat vs. animals and barbs?

Being able to use Spiders as NA, frankly, is ancillary to the concerns I have. My concerns are really with the happy and bonuses.

Yes, yes, no (Well, 5% chance on the highest variant; Bonus, not reliable), sometimes.

And their new use will likely be more desirable than settling more than one or two in a city... Plus, the economic bonuses you mention are really from the guilds, which I intend to do away with in their current form.

 

[odalrick]

I'm beginning to suspect that you play on small or crowded maps. Is that the case?

It *is* the case that I play on Huge maps usually. I do add additional AIs to the default, however.

Regardless, would you agree that the game should be designed such that all maps are balanced?

Small crowded maps, yes. Although it is on Tectonics Mediterranean, which seems to be about two sizes bigger than advertised.

And, no, I don't think the game should be balanced for all map types. There should be one map/size that is favoured. Some effort can be made to extend the balance but in general I expect different maps (even the same map script with different seeds) to give different experiences.

So you rarely take Subdue Animal, not just on Hunters but Rangers as well? Seems like you haven't really explored the power of this promotion. Which is the point of this thread. May I suggest in your next game you alter your game strategy to purposely try to use and abuse it.

Hunters get Subdue Animal. Rangers, not so much. Usually the upgraded Hunters suffice.

The point is to use spiders against civs you aren't ready or don't want to fight. Such as your allies.

Yes, that's a danger, but I don't let them get too far away from my borders, and send them in pairs. Go in, kill, retreat to heal. Rinse, repeat. Baby spiders are great for taking workers, which lets them grow.

Again, diligent work. It's too much micromanagement for not enough benefit for my taste.

Where did that come from? Nowhere did I say I relied on it.

A strategy that you cant rely on isn't overpowered.

A warrior has maybe 5% chance to win against a similar champion, which is nice when it happens to you. That does not mean that warriors are overpowered.

Yes, hippogriff cage gives happiness. Looking at the XML to make this list: So does Lion Cage, Gorilla Cage, Tiger Cage, and Lizard Cage. Grand Menagerie gives 2, Silk gives both itself plus Theatre Masquerade / Tailor / Temple of the Gift. And multiple Silk can be traded away for as many other happy resources as you can find trading partners. 15 total is what I had at the end of my last game. I can imagine someone could beat that.

Forgot about the possibility to trade. I tend to file that under diligent work though, since all enemies are psychopaths. I also think you are very lucky that your enemies didn't already have silk.

See above re: maps. Bottom line, I think that argument is basically saying "discount my opinion because my map settings don't have a lot of animals". Not sure why you would advance such an argument as rationale that the mechanic is OK. (The rationale is self defeating.)

I'm just saying my experience differs from yours.

Seems pointless to discuss anything else, since as all your issues were addressed before you made your post. Not that you had any way to know that.

 

[inuyashasama]

A strategy that you cant rely on isn't overpowered.

A warrior has maybe 5% chance to win against a similar champion, which is nice when it happens to you. That does not mean that warriors are overpowered.

This doesn't really seem to hold water. The kind of bonuses he's talking about are more than just a one-time, overall negligible occurrence, it's the chance for a game-breaking collection of bonuses. Just because it doesn't happen every time, doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.

That said, my experiences with wild animals have not been nice ones XD. No matter how strong I get my ranger, he always ends up being murdered by the same sabertooth tiger (or similar overpowered monstrosity) before he has the chance to so much as pick his nose. So far, I've never caught anything except a bear, a boar and a few wolves. Note the singular on those.

 

[Wodan]

And, no, I don't think the game should be balanced for all map types. There should be one map/size that is favoured. Some effort can be made to extend the balance but in general I expect different maps (even the same map script with different seeds) to give different experiences.

So a different map size could have broken gameplay, and that's ok with you?

Honestly, I don't think "balanced" = "same experience". Which is what you're implying.

Hunters get Subdue Animal. Rangers, not so much. Usually the upgraded Hunters suffice.

May I suggest in your next game you alter your game strategy to purposely try to use and abuse Subdue Animal.

A strategy that you cant rely on isn't overpowered.

So, we could have a game mechanic that functions "Every time you capture a animal, there's a 10% chance you immediately win the game". That's not overpowered according to this definition.

Forgot about the possibility to trade. I tend to file that under diligent work though, since all enemies are psychopaths. I also think you are very lucky that your enemies didn't already have silk.

I tend to be able to trade without about half the AIs. Luck doesn't enter into it. Just don't be an ass to the AIs, and many of them will trade with you.

The fact that (by the time we get to the point of having enough Silk to trade around) you can have a tech lead helps (because you have so many commerce bonuses from all the animal stuff), so you can frequently say "yes" to demands for outdated techs.

I'm just saying my experience differs from yours.

Okay, and I keep saying your game settings and play style are self-fulfililng prophecies. I'm suggesting a strategy you currently aren't using. Of course your experience is different, you aren't using and haven't even tried the strat yet.

Seems pointless to discuss anything else, since as all your issues were addressed before you made your post. Not that you had any way to know that.

Agreed, though I still have the question about Spiders, as I see them as the most powerful of the several strategies I pointed out. Capture and create lots of spiders, spam spider cages, spread Masquerade, REX cities.

 

[Wodan]

This doesn't really seem to hold water. The kind of bonuses he's talking about are more than just a one-time, overall negligible occurrence, it's the chance for a game-breaking collection of bonuses. Just because it doesn't happen every time, doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.

This.

 

[odalrick]

This doesn't really seem to hold water. The kind of bonuses he's talking about are more than just a one-time, overall negligible occurrence, it's the chance for a game-breaking collection of bonuses. Just because it doesn't happen every time, doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.

So, we could have a game mechanic that functions "Every time you capture a animal, there's a 10% chance you immediately win the game". That's not overpowered according to this definition.

10% chance each time you capture an animal is reliable.

1% chance the first time you capture an animal isn't reliable and not overpowered either. Unfun, sure; broken, possibly; not overpowered.

You can randomly get a dozen free Great Prophets from events in the first 50 turns. Just because it doesn't happen all the time is it not overpowered.

So a different map size could have broken gameplay, and that's ok with you?

Yes. It's nice if a wide range of maps are supported, but not a requirement or even very desirable.

Changing to broken maps is no different from modding the Warrior to have 40.

I tend to be able to trade without about half the AIs. Luck doesn't enter into it. Just don't be an ass to the AIs, and many of them will trade with you.

The fact that (by the time we get to the point of having enough Silk to trade around) you can have a tech lead helps (because you have so many commerce bonuses from all the animal stuff), so you can frequently say "yes" to demands for outdated techs.

Why can't I be an ass to the AIs? They are asses to me!

About half will already have silk, half will hate me, half won't have anything to trade and one of the remaining two will actively be warring against me. The one trade partner available wants silk, corn, iron and copper for one dye.

And in 20 turns I'll have to renegotiate.

More work than I care for in a game.

Okay, and I keep saying your game settings and play style are self-fulfililng prophecies.

Ditto. Why don't you try maps that don't make animals broken if it bothers you.

Large maps mean many cities; boring.
Large maps mean long turns; even more boring.
Few civs mean no rivals after the first war; boring.
Long games mean ages before high tech toys; boring.

I play RifE to be amused, not bored.

Agreed, though I still have the question about Spiders, as I see them as the most powerful of the several strategies I pointed out. Capture and create lots of spiders, spam spider cages, spread Masquerade, REX cities.

Guilds won't give economic bonuses from hoarding resources in the future. Might not be next patch, but balance issues about things that are going to change completely soonish don't have a high priority.

 

[Wodan]

Yes. It's nice if a wide range of maps are supported, but not a requirement or even very desirable.

You're suggesting we only support Small or Standard size maps?

More work than I care for in a game.

Then don't go to the effort. Simply use Masquerade and change a dozen Silk to commerce and culture.

Ditto. Why don't you try maps that don't make animals broken if it bothers you.

I play everything from Standard to Huge, and IMO going for Hunters is so powerful it should be done in every game. Bears alone are a huge benefit. Combined with all the other small bonuses plus Spiders/Masquerade, it's overpowered.

I play RifE to be amused, not bored.

Your opinion is noted. But please don't presume to tell others how they should have fun.

Advocating an extremely narrow bias for the Mod is tantamount to telling others how they have to play the game. Actually, it's worse. But I don't want to be critical in a negative way.

My only goal is to give feedback and a strong suggestion that this design be looked at for possible changes (in addition to the changes already planned).

Guilds won't give economic bonuses from hoarding resources in the future. Might not be next patch, but balance issues about things that are going to change completely soonish don't have a high priority.

I agreed with that thought. And thanks for letting me know the Masquerade bonus is going away completely, that addresses my concern about Spiders in part (remaining would be the possibility of trading multiple silks).

I suppose the only thing remaining is the concern that the accumulation of bonuses from Hunters makes them much more attractive than any other unit progression and/or a must in every game.

 

[Almagafor]

Why trade out the silks when its easier simply to ahem "Lay the Smackdown" on the AI and take their stuff. (Also known as a "mugging")

 

[Valkrionn]

You're suggesting we only support Small or Standard size maps?

I think my point was misinterpreted here; I had said it's impossible to balance for all possible map TYPES, not sizes. There is too much variation there to ever be able to say that it's balanced everywhere. But honestly, that won't be an issue too much longer.

Balancing for all map SIZES is possible, and desirable. You'll still have a situation where Standard is typically the best (just as Standard speed is more balanced than Epic), but that's fine.

I agreed with that thought. And thanks for letting me know the Masquerade bonus is going away completely, that addresses my concern about Spiders in part (remaining would be the possibility of trading multiple silks).

I suppose the only thing remaining is the concern that the accumulation of bonuses from Hunters makes them much more attractive than any other unit progression and/or a must in every game.

Possibility of trade will remain, yes. But again, you'll likely have better things to do than settle your spiders...

 

[Deon]

Actually I find recon units to be inferior to melee due to lack of March. The only good thing about them is that there's no anti-recon promotion. Also -25% city strength is a HUGE malus which works as an anti-recon promotion on attack.

Also the animals are fine, I never care to capture them specially because using that time you can kill a few civs and get resources. I never have happiness problems, but health may be an issue.

What I think Wodan is right about, is that culture output of animals is too strong. A single bear can build +3 culture building in a new city, which basicaly "culture bombs" it. I think that removing or lowering such a high culture output would be fine. It's not a recon's problem though, but bear's .

Again, maybe you play giant maps and on lower difficulty, then I see your point, however in my normal immortal standard map games I have other things to care about .

 

[Wodan]

Actually I find recon units to be inferior to melee due to lack of March.

You'd rather have March than Combat IV? Interesting.

Also -25% city strength is a HUGE malus which works as an anti-recon promotion on attack.

But you get huge numbers of XP so basically it amounts to "get 3-5 extra promotions, of which one of them is negated."

Also the animals are fine, I never care to capture them specially because using that time you can kill a few civs and get resources.

I don't think it's a mutually exclusive choice.

I never have happiness problems, but health may be an issue.

I'm usually the opposite. Health isn't usually an issue but my cities eventually get to the cap, and happiness is the only solution.

What I think Wodan is right about, is that culture output of animals is too strong. A single bear can build +3 culture building in a new city, which basicaly "culture bombs" it. I think that removing or lowering such a high culture output would be fine. It's not a recon's problem though, but bear's .

Yeah but there's a cost to getting that bonus: Animal Husbandry and Hunting.

The only reason wolves and lions aren't similar is that they have even more cost: Festivals and Carnival.

That said I still think Hunters+Bears is very strong. But I think Hunters + Subdue Animal is hugely overpowered because of everything they do, so they disincentivize other strategies to me. So, the cost to Bears is amortized over other bonuses which I get from having Hunters.

Again, maybe you play giant maps and on lower difficulty, then I see your point, however in my normal immortal standard map games I have other things to care about .

Don't know about others, but as I said I play Immortal on Standard/Large/Huge.

 

[Deon]

Well still there're far more balanced things like aristofarms and vampires or some other unbeatable tactics.

And I didn't ask March OR Combat IV, but units without march are easily killed by stack of deaths while with march can move around, hit, then more further as much as you want.