Reconsidering strategy with BtS

[Jet]

The way the question is phrased suggests to me that you expect a single answer, independent of the leader, game settings, and map, not to mention player experience and preference. To the extent that that is the case, I'm puzzled as to why you would. In Vanilla and Warlords, there was no single answer.

 

[Ruler]

What about the transition economy idea? Build farms/mines at the start, have a classical era war, then cottage up.

If anything cottages should be worth it even more since they allow you to pay corporation upkeep.

This's the way I'm playing in my current game I had to care of business so I couldn't play but it's going well. I thought I'm going to make only farms, and run 2 scientist per city and them maximize production and it's indeed working and I'm kind of in critical situation now I just captured 2 towns and I think there is still at least one big stack coming from AI side but I'm pretty positive. I think I had 5 city before I declared war. Also extra food help you in whipping too. Once I get more cities I'm going to switch to cottages.

 

[futurehermit]

The way the question is phrased suggests to me that you expect a single answer, independent of the leader, game settings, and map, not to mention player experience and preference. To the extent that that is the case, I'm puzzled as to why you would. In Vanilla and Warlords, there was no single answer.

Of course there is no single answer and I am not saying there is nor should my question be taken that way.

Of course leaders, settings, map, etc. will impact your strategy. I'm just saying that *generally* cottages don't produce hammers and farms don't produce commerce and that is the tension I wrestle with...and so I started this thread to get some feedback and it has worked pretty well so far

 

[slobberinbear]

While it is fun to identify and pigeonhole cities, earmarking them for CE, SE, or production, I find that I usually have a hybrid going in most of my cities. This is particularly true when the cities are small.

As I tech up, and more improvement options unlock, specialization becomes more attractive. I really only look at city specialization after the initial expansion phase and if I'm at peace.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Of course there is no single answer and I am not saying there is nor should my question be taken that way.

Of course leaders, settings, map, etc. will impact your strategy. I'm just saying that *generally* cottages don't produce hammers and farms don't produce commerce and that is the tension I wrestle with...and so I started this thread to get some feedback and it has worked pretty well so far

I definitely agree with the cottages and a few military focussed production cities. I've been having a lot of problems with the mid-game tech rate. The AI seems to be running a transition economy! I capture cities in 800AD with cottages and no hamlets. These cities are just economic killers. Tech trading was really nerfed because the AI researched very slowly in the few Monarch games I played and my strategy has been anything to keep the economy afloat. I couldn't trade/extort for economic techs so beelining anything wasn't really possible.

I was able to capture two shrines in my second game and created two missionary production centers to maximize the shrine income. I was far enough ahead of the AI that I didn't need more military production.

Maps seem to have more plains and less food resources so slow growth and farm/specialist based economies take a really big hit. I used to raze most cities that didn't have at least one food resource. Now those cities seem to occur more often.

 

[Ruler]

I finished my game my plan worked nicely. Until I made a mistake I thought my neighbour was weak as it was not a big deal even he was vassaled by Spain but Spain was so far I thought maybe I'm lucky and she sends only one stack and she did and it cause me no problems but then what I didn't expect that I got also attacked by Inca that was the end of the story. I should have gone to oversee to Egypt and conquer it, what was last or second last but did had nice island and no rifles.

Anyway, that's how I start to play now, two scientist and maximized production, it really worked for me this time and it wasnt even so good map anyway though there was a lot of food but I'm always in trouble if my capital is morelike production city and the next couple are too and lacking in food and not to mention if they are no happy resources around. Next time I'm going to grap 3-5 cities very fast and bulb/trade whatever to keep up with AI in tech until I can until I get my cities working and my army.

 

[Martinus]

Speaking of BtS, has anyone actually done some more detailed analysis of how new wonders fit into any of the established strategies? Beyond the obvious stuff, like the AP providing with a completely new type of victory, I think some of the new wonders are pretty interesting:

Mausoleum - perhaps fit in with a new multiple Golden Age strategy (now that Golden Ages also grant +100% great people production, and allow for no anarchy) - could a Philosophical leader running Pacifism pull off a non-ending Golden Age that way (at least until it costs 4 GP or so to start one)?

Shwegadon Paya (sp?) - it seems strangely absent from strategy discussions, while it is a Pyramid equivalent for Religious civics - early Pacifism for SE, early Theocracy for everybody anyone?

Christo Redentor - no comments, this is probably one of the best wonders in game, only that it comes rather late.

 

[illram]

Speaking of BtS, has anyone actually done some more detailed analysis of how new wonders fit into any of the established strategies? Beyond the obvious stuff, like the AP providing with a completely new type of victory, I think some of the new wonders are pretty interesting:

The Maoui (sp?) statues are pretty cool. The AI (monarch) doesn't seem to prioritize them, and it can turn your coastal city into your top production city.

Stonehenge is now much better as it lasts almost half the game.

Whichever wonder it is that gives the +100% war weariness (Statue of Zeus?) is intriguing, if only for the fact that you'd want to stop the AI from having it. In a MP game it'd be pretty important.

 

[Molon Labe]

The Maoui (sp?) statues are pretty cool. The AI (monarch) doesn't seem to prioritize them, and it can turn your coastal city into your top production city.

The Moai are national wonders not world. So the AI does indeed use them, just you get to as well.

 

[Quornix]

Shwegadon Paya (sp?) - it seems strangely absent from strategy discussions, while it is a Pyramid equivalent for Religious civics - early Pacifism for SE, early Theocracy for everybody anyone?

It sounds nice, but it requires Aesthetics (which on its own isn't really a problem). Unfortunately, the last religious civic comes with Liberalism, so you don't really have much time to work the benefits. If you're running an SE, you can get early Pacifism with one GS, meditation and CoL. Theocracy, I suppose, takes a while to get to, especially if you tend to neglect the religious path, but is it really worth building a wonder to pick up one civic option?

If it was fairly cheap and just came with Meditation or Priesthood, it might be worth the short term benefit, but tying it in to Aesthetics pushes it far enough out that you should be able to trade or bulb the tech for any civic you want with about the same effort. And then you have a tech too.

Pyramids rocks because it is very early and gives access to civics not available until quite late. But would you build Pyramids to give you access just to HR? Not worth it.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Yeah, that sounds pretty duff then, compared to the wonderful pyramids.

Sometimes I don't get organised religion till later than I should but that's about it. There should either be a decent civic available with divine right in that case or some other bonus like no/cheaper upkeep for religious civics.

Does divine right actually lead to anything useful in BtS or is it just dead weight once the wonders are built still?

 

[futurehermit]

Speaking of BtS, has anyone actually done some more detailed analysis of how new wonders fit into any of the established strategies? Beyond the obvious stuff, like the AP providing with a completely new type of victory, I think some of the new wonders are pretty interesting:

Mausoleum - perhaps fit in with a new multiple Golden Age strategy (now that Golden Ages also grant +100% great people production, and allow for no anarchy) - could a Philosophical leader running Pacifism pull off a non-ending Golden Age that way (at least until it costs 4 GP or so to start one)?

Shwegadon Paya (sp?) - it seems strangely absent from strategy discussions, while it is a Pyramid equivalent for Religious civics - early Pacifism for SE, early Theocracy for everybody anyone?

Christo Redentor - no comments, this is probably one of the best wonders in game, only that it comes rather late.

Mausoleum is an insanely good wonder imo. From what I can tell it DOES NOT EXPIRE. So you can nab it early and then wait til at least nationalism and then starting with the Taj Mahal try and run off a string of golden ages in a row. You could really blow away from the competition with this strat.

The S.P. kinda sucks imo. *maybe* good for free religion. but if I want theocracy, pacificism i can lightbulb them and if i want org. rel it comes very early. I think it would be good for a SPIRITUAL leader so you can quickly flip back and forth between theocracy, pacificism, and org. rel whenever you want, and early. Then you could also avoid phil and monoth/theology and tech to other things.

The Statue of Zeus is dangerous in the hands of your enemy but doesn't seem that great for you yourself UNLESS YOU ARE GOING DOMINATION. Then it is great imo, especially if you have IVORY which speeds its production.

The C.R. is great, but does come late. Should be easy to nab late-game as long as you are winning not losing.

Maoi Statues are sensational imo. I really hate coastal tiles so anything to improve them is great. I had one city that was decent (had some good resources and food) but had TWELVE coastal tiles (zero ocean!). The Maoi statues really paid dividends for me in this city. I tend to delay it though until I see which city will reap the most rewards from it!

National Park is sensational as well. Really nice for a 2nd gpfarm or an UBER gpfarm under caste system so long as you are able to split your gpfarm with 1/2 forests and 1/2 farms/food specials.

I also like the Kremlin now as it provides espionage bonus and lets you run additional spy specialists.

Notre Dame has also been buffed and now comes with engineering instead of music, so it is much more attractive imho!!!

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Shwegadon Paya might be good if you are forced to avoid a religion for diplomatic reasons, letting you get free religion early which would be +1 happy from each religion and +10% research. +10% research is probably not to be sneezed at in the early game when you don't have lots of other multipliers.

I doubt I'd try for it without an industrious leader - can't see it paying back on hammers with so many other good wonders around the same time.

 

[futurehermit]

is it boosted with stone or marble? if stone, then with a spiritual leader i would consider tagteaming it with the pyramids for some uber civic switches early on:

rep-pac (specialists)
ps-theoc (military)
rep-org (buildings)
rep-free (research)

 

[Pomp]

I'm loving the Maoi Statues. In my most recent game, as the Dutch, I was surprised to discover that the Maoi Statues plus a Dike meant that the peninsular city I founded to grab 3 seafood resources was actually the best place for the Ironworks. 5 land tiles, the rest coastal, and I put the Ironworks there.

I'm disappointed with the SP as well. I'm sure someone will figure out an effective use for it sooner or later, but my first impression is sort of...meh. Nice to have, especially for a Spiritual leader, but nothing I'd prioritize, or plan my tech route to take advantage of.

Shwegadon Paya might be good if you are forced to avoid a religion for diplomatic reasons, letting you get free religion early which would be +1 happy from each religion and +10% research. +10% research is probably not to be sneezed at in the early game when you don't have lots of other multipliers.

That's a good point. I was thinking that Free Religion wouldn't be something I'd want at that point in the game, since I'm normally picking a state religion to form a bloc with someone, but you're right that in a more fragmented religious environment, it would be nice to jump ahead to FR.

 

[Martinus]

is it boosted with stone or marble? if stone, then with a spiritual leader i would consider tagteaming it with the pyramids for some uber civic switches early on:

rep-pac (specialists)
ps-theoc (military)
rep-org (buildings)
rep-free (research)

Iirc, it is actually boosted with Gold, which is much more common than Marble/Stone.

 

[Martinus]

I'm disappointed with the SP as well. I'm sure someone will figure out an effective use for it sooner or later, but my first impression is sort of...meh. Nice to have, especially for a Spiritual leader, but nothing I'd prioritize, or plan my tech route to take advantage of.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's worth deviating from your tech path to get SP, but since Aesthetics is now a "hard" prerequisite for Literacy (and Great Library), unless you don't want to build GL, you will get the ability to build SP sooner or later.

 

[AlessioCerci]

One benefit of free religion is that it stops the AI asking you to adopt their state religion, so you dont get a negative diplo penalty....something to think about. (if you have gold its relatively cheap and it is on the way to the GL. Also i dont think the AI likes researching aesthetics that early)

 

[TriviAl]

I really like the SP in the right circumstances - free religion is the really nice in pangea/large continent type situations. I tend to avoid religion unless I'm making a real military bruiser of a civ. As a side benefit, gold doubles speed - find that fairly common in games - also the AI will IME trade it, unlike stone or marble...

Did have a question. Is golden age a +100% GPP bonus or an actual doubling? Can't recall off the top of my head and that could lead to some interesting golden age cities?

Ninja edit: Think the above poster is quite right. AI tends to leave aesthetics alone in games I've been playing. It's the new alphabet.

 

[Martinus]

Yeah, I think people discount Free Religion not just as a Diplomacy tool, but also a very good civic, especially for an early growth. Forget about the science bonus - but you get +1 happy person per each religion in the city (great for whipping), and more importantly it gives culture per each religion so you just open borders to your neighbours and let them spread whatever they want to your cities.