Reconsidering strategy with BtS

[futurehermit]

Ok, so I've tried out 6-10 games on monarch (haven't finished any yet, trying to get a feel for the game).

What I've found is that the dilemma I struggled with on warlords is even more pronounced in BtS.

My dilemma: CE is low production (cottages don't produce hammers) and SE is low commerce (farms don't produce commerce). So, with a CE I have problems expanding and fighting wars and with a SE I have problems with going broke/teching.

Why it is more pronounced in BtS: The AI techs much slower, so lightbulbing and trading is less effective (even worse than monarch Warlords). The AI builds waaay more military units and is also much more likely to DoW on you, so keeping up in power is even more important. I had some games where I was playing as dutch (no military uu, late ub, no agg/cha traits) where I had very wealthy commerce cities and a healthy tech lead, but fell behind on power and got attacked by huge stacks.

So, I come to you with my plight: What should I do?

Options as I see it:

1) Stick with a CE. The AI techs slow, so aim for a tech advantage. Say first to construction. First to maces. First to grens/cav. etc. Then make sure that I have a number of strong production cities (more than I usually have apparently). Don't ever stop producing units in these cities. Basically, more hardcore specialization than I normally do.

2) Go with FE/SE. The AI techs slow, so it is ok to fall behind in tech for awhile. Don't worry even about getting free tech from lib. Just focus on getting the land (is power). This approach allows for a lot more whipping = larger armies to compete with the AI. Currency can now be teched through alphabet so selling techs for cash, building gold, running merchants is available earlier (without needing to decide between math and alpha).

3) Go with a hybrid. Have some commerce cities, some production cities, and some whipping factories. The whipping factories can supplement the production cities and the commerce cities can help pay the bills.

Other ideas?

 

[xanadux]

Sounds like tons of production cities are necessary, but then you also need lots of cash to support military and all those cities. Not the easiest thing to pull off. Perhaps cottage up the capital to take advantage of buearacracy, a super science city using science specialists/settled scientists, a super cash city using merchants/settled merchants, and then primarily production cities. Going cottages with later cities may be a problem since those cities will be closer to AI, and vulnerable to pillaging.

A spiritual leader may be the way to go ... to be able to move back and forth between caste system and slavery.

 

[AlessioCerci]

Something to think about: you've forgotten the other economy the EE - that is espionage economy. After alphabet, assign lots of spy specialists and turn espionage spending up. Then just steal the techs off of the AI.

Production is not a problem in cottage economy. Just make some cities unit producing cities (the number of cities depends on how many cities you have in total) All they need is barracks (heroic epic) and granary. One could be a globe theatre whipping factory if you want.

The other cities can be maxed for commerce.
Note: if you are financial and have 3 great commerce cities (few farms needed to grow to size 20 pre biology) this can support your entire empire while REXing.

The problem i have with SE is that apart from capital (and opponent's if i capture it) plus 1-2 more cities, the majority of one's cities dont have enough food pre-biology.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

I've been getting the best Mileage in BtS from a CE heavy Hybrid econ. I cottage basically everything, but still have most cities run 1/2 scientists. The academies and bulbs early on have helped get tech leads. I'm even cottaging up my production cities on river tiles with no forest. With the right civics and a levee cottages push 2 hammers at the endgame now which is pretty nice.

 

[UnnamedPlayer]

not all of your cities have to be one type or the other. balance it out

 

[Elrohir]

Try having at least three very good production cities instead of the one or two normal on standard size maps - your Ironworks city, your Heroic epic city, and another good production city tossed in for good measure to help with the load. (Especially since your Ironworks city will often be busy building wonders - and you can't expect to build all your units in your HE city alone) Your tech pace may take a hit if you have these extra cities that aren't producing much more commerce than the gold they cost in maintenance, but it's worth it in the long run. Towns are nice, but they can't defend themselves.

 

[futurehermit]

Try having at least three very good production cities instead of the one or two normal on standard size maps - your Ironworks city, your Heroic epic city, and another good production city tossed in for good measure to help with the load. (Especially since your Ironworks city will often be busy building wonders - and you can't expect to build all your units in your HE city alone) Your tech pace may take a hit if you have these extra cities that aren't producing much more commerce than the gold they cost in maintenance, but it's worth it in the long run. Towns are nice, but they can't defend themselves.

Yeah, I just started a game which is going better. Using the Dutch. I started off with 3 cities, all producing axes. One non-capital city I pegged as a production city early (coastal with grassland hills and grassland farms, and jungle-covered dyes, but no food unfortunately) that will transition into a commerce city. The other non-capital had a gold pit to help early research, but will be a pure production city since it has a number of hills. The capital is a good mix of production and commerce, but started out production and will transition to commerce.

I had Shaka to my North. I knew I couldn't leave him be or it would be trouble. So, I attacked him with lots of axes. 13 originally and I had up to 18 at one point. Good thing as I needed pretty much all of them!!! The guy sure knows how to build units and was defending with multiple shock axes I have managed to take him out though without crippling my economy too much (never dropped below 50% sci). I have GW and Brennus on my continent and they are aways away from me. My plan now is to put the GL in Shaka's capital (high food) and tech like a crazy person while finishing expanding til the land is gone. GW and Brennus are no real threat to attack me. I will probably attack Brennus with upgraded axe maces, maces, and catapults (with some mixed defenders). Hopefully that will be enough land to win space race comfortably.

Axerushes really do help in the early game. I know myself that my games are better if I can pull one off, but since I am still adjusting to the changes of the game and the stronger AI I figure I can cut myself some slack

 

[illram]

Good thread idea. It'd be cool if we have a nice repository of some of the new strategies that come with this game.

I've only played one game so far w/ the Dutch (monarch/normal), but I feel like I've gotten at least a semblance of an idea of some of the new things I need to work on with this game. One thing about the dutch, if you make it to the late game, dikes are AMAZING. Your coastal cities become absolute powerhouses, especially if you run Uni. Suf. Also, building a ironworks on a city with a river and spamming watermills and workshops is an even better move with BtS as levees give an extra shield to river tiles... my last ironworks city was sporting a healthy 225 shields and building wonders such as Cristo Redentor in 5-6 turns. (Thats without industrious trait!)

Health is another issue with this game- factories can give you a whopping 5 unhealthy faces! I think they wanted environmentalism to play a bigger role with this game and it indeed may, as health becomes a huge factor in the late game. Factories and labs are integral parts of a space race win, but now you are looking at a 6 health penalty with just these two buildings if you have oil and coal. Fortunately there are health producing buildings such as public transportation, but nonetheless health is much more of a factor now.

Defying resolutions is a great new addition. For a -5 happiness penalty, you don't need to listen to those damn "adopt US" resolutions if you are currently fielding facism and suppressing what would otherwise be a huge war weariness penalty.

For me, the CE/SE eternal question is still valid and important, but what I am wondering is what the new exploit/tech beeline is going to be with this game. In warlords, for me it was winning the liberalism race and getting cavalry before the AI, usually in the 1200's.

This doesn't work on BtS. In my last game I decided to try for grenadiers and steel before cavalry as they are quicker to get now than cavalry, but I noticed that assembly line is now possibly a better beeline than cavalry and may take about the same amount of time, but I don't have a tech tree in front of me.

Espionage is annoying when used against me and I am not sure yet how to really take advantage of it. The idea of depending on espionage is intriguing, are there any Master of Orion players in here? The BtS system reminds me of MOO and the old Civ II system, where in some cases you could just sit back and spy your way along without bothering with science. (Remember the Darloks?)

The AI seems better with military strategy but waaaay slower with technology. Also, the apostolic palace just gets silly sometimes, with the AI declaring war on you and then 3 turns later voting to stop the war they started. (?!) I think that and the slow tech pace of the AI will be fixed in an upcoming patch as that shouldn't be an "improvement." Even though the AI may build more, it doesn't matter if all their units are garbage. In my last game, the Romans were still fielding knights in the 1900's.(!)

The new siege weapon system is interesting- my bread and butter early military strategy needed some tweaking this game as you cannot rely on a massive stack of cats or trebs with just a few regular units, as now the siege weapons can't kill units, like in civ 3. If he's got 15 longbowmen, you need at least 15 macemen/axemen/whatever, instead of maybe 7 or 8 and 20 trebuchets. Not to mention flanking, which is also a big new factor. Artillery in the late game seem to be much weaker and the new mobile artillery is a toy I have yet to play with.

Edit: something I wanted to ask: does anyone else think spiritual should get something extra? Since you can now build the Cristo Redentor and reap the same benefits, it seems a little weaker now than before. Granted, the wonder comes late and may not be a factor in some games, but it seems to me that traits shouldn't give benefits which can be gotten in other ways. Philosophical is the only other trait that comes to mind, but getting the same benefit without the trait requires a bit more work than building one wonder, and in some cases requires a large shift in strategy that may not work well with the overall game.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

My last game with a CE had no production challenges whatsoever. Early on I had three production cities and early heroic epic due to barbarian fights. That easily kept up production.

In the late game with universal sufferage, my ordinary cottage cities were building most improvements in 5 turns or less - hammers were way more than I was used to.

A couple of things:

- The temple bonus from the Apostolic palace really helps in the mid game. My cottage cities built temples first, then courthouses with the extra production chipping in.

- Levees really help a cottage city since a lot of them get built on rivers. My second highest hammer city for much of the end game was actually a city that I had designated as a cottage city. It had a few good food sources and a lot of plains cottages with lots of river tiles. Each of the plains cottages was generating 8 commerce + 3 hammers.

Don't be put off a CE due to hammers - I suspect a CE post democracy generates more hammers in total than an SE (an SE has to choose between bursts of research running specialists and bursts of hammers - the bursts may be greater, but the total hammer output of a post democracy CE is incredible). Even before democracy, the extra commerce from a CE allows you to support production cities that should be able to keep your military up.

 

[MangleMeElmo]

Eh, I find that I always use a mix of SE/CE because the terrain just doesn't conform to allow one or the other. Also, isn't a Spy Economy rather risky because a spy always has a chance of failure?

 

[NaZdReG]

played a couple of monarch games so far on BTS. one that went very well as the mayans, not a great UU but overall good civ to play with. ball court is a great UB!!

currently playing through my 2nd game with the dutch on a very good territory.

I'm normally a CE enthusiast, but i've seen that having a couple of cities dedicated to unit production is a MUST or you will see a nasty DOW sooner than you would like. military techs need a higher priority (i've grabbed the great wall in almost every game if I see stone, but skip the oracle and other wonders)

espionage is crucial if you want to steal techs or forment other troubles.

I'm glad sisuitil is posting a BTS game, hopefully it will help with early strategy thoughts. best I"ve come up with is to REX like crazy and stock your cities well with defenders. if you can get a military superior tech before they do leverage it asap. (maces, or knights, calvary, etc)

if you are high enough on power they may turn on each other before attacking you. then it is much easier to expand by dogpiling one of them.

just my .02

NaZ

 

[Ruler]

I like the new civ 4, AI tech slowly but build more military. So, you can grab more cities it means more production, more units and eventually bigger battles and more fun. I have had pretty good success with even 6-7 cities without CoL or anything what wasn't possible in warlord. Just something to think off. This is on Monarch.

 

[Alsn]

Eh, I find that I always use a mix of SE/CE because the terrain just doesn't conform to allow one or the other. Also, isn't a Spy Economy rather risky because a spy always has a chance of failure?

There isnt actually much risk to using a spy economy as if you fail the only thing you lose is a % chance for a reputation hit with the target as well as the spy itself. The points that the mission would have costed are still there and you can simply just do the mission with another spy.

I was playing a game where my capital was right smack next to gilgamesh who was the tech leader, sending in a spy and waiting until i had spent 5 turns(-50% cost) i had the following modifiers:
Distance +16%
Trade routes -20%
Time spent -50%
Espionage point spending -31%

So the cost of stealing the tech was something ridiculously low compared to how much the tech was worth(i hadnt actually invested in spying at this point but simply popped a great spy because of the great wall for a free 3000 espionage points against gilgamesh in this case).

The problem i have found though is that once you start spending lots of EP towards only a specific civ they will do the same to you, so eventually youll run out of "excess points" which is what makes it cheap to steal techs and it will no longer be profitable compared to just teching normally and trading with what you get.

Espionage is however a great way to get your hands on some really expensive techs that the AI is prone to be "not willing to trade yet" assuming you actually have enough points for it.

Edit: Also, im not quite sure how the "espionage point spending" modifier works. It seems to simply give you a bigger discount the more points you have compared to what the enemy has but on a couple of occasions it has been displaying numbers that are a bit too weird for me to understand.

 

[futurehermit]

Espionage is however a great way to get your hands on some really expensive techs that the AI is prone to be "not willing to trade yet" assuming you actually have enough points for it.

This is TRUE espionage imho!!!

 

[Ruler]

Maybe one should use espionage to steal meditation, poly, priesthood and monotheism what some AI are not so willing to trade and are needed for techs later on like monarchy and shouldn't be so expensive either.

 

[GeneralGab]

Regarding production:

With levees, a grassland riverside city can become a production powerhouse, with State Property and watermills (and Caste System if needed). In my last game, with an industrial park and ironworks, all 20 tiles were being worked and I had 5 engineering specialists. Every military unit in the game was only 1 turn to build (with HE).

I've only played a few games, but I find I need a couple of good production powerhouses to keep up with the AI's unit spam. Especially now that you can't kill units with siege, you need more units, and more diversity in your stacks. Early game, the AI tends to build lots of horse archers, who do collateral damage to siege units (well, catapults and trebuchets).

 

[futurehermit]

I've only played a few games, but I find I need a couple of good production powerhouses to keep up with the AI's unit spam. Especially now that you can't kill units with siege, you need more units, and more diversity in your stacks. Early game, the AI tends to build lots of horse archers, who do collateral damage to siege units (well, catapults and trebuchets).

Bingo, well said.

 

[frob2900]

Other ideas?

What about the transition economy idea? Build farms/mines at the start, have a classical era war, then cottage up.

If anything cottages should be worth it even more since they allow you to pay corporation upkeep.

 

[mice]

With levees, a grassland riverside city can become a production powerhouse, with State Property and watermills (and Caste System if needed). In my last game, with an industrial park and ironworks, all 20 tiles were being worked and I had 5 engineering specialists. Every military unit in the game was only 1 turn to build (with HE).

Perhaps a hybrid econ in the early game could give way to more of a hammer econ later on, with the farm oriented cities turning into these grassland hammer producers. A few Cottage farms blaze through the whole game to keep the commerce rolling in, and the farm heavy cities move from specialists into workshops, mills and levves.

 

[futurehermit]

What about the transition economy idea? Build farms/mines at the start, have a classical era war, then cottage up.

If anything cottages should be worth it even more since they allow you to pay corporation upkeep.

Yeah, I have been thinking this as well. I have tried it out a bit with some success and will try it more seriously in my coming games.