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Reform and Rule

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Modpacks' started by Machiavelli24, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Anastase Alex

    Anastase Alex Chieftain

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    I have not yet tested this mod (mostly due to the fact that I have yet to manage to combine it with communitas), but it seems very very interesting, providing lots of difficult choises. However I was wondering why the Autocracy were teh only ones who could see the hidden antiquity sites.
     
  2. Kennan

    Kennan Chieftain

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    Great mod! Thank you.

    Only bug I have encountered is Wagon Trains giving me +5 trade routes.
     
  3. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    Kennan, I know exactly what kind of mistake could produce that behavior, it is a quick fix that I can release later today. If you keep an autosave from before you selected Wagon Trains everything will work correctly post-update.
    ------
    Autocracy got access to hidden Antiquity Sites to support them playing a Tourism game that is different from Order and Freedom. Freedom gets additional Tourism from Great Works while Order gets additional Tourism from Wonders and terrain. Hidden Antiquity Sites are Autocracy's big source of raw Tourism (once they get Hotels and Airports).
     
  4. katfish

    katfish Chieftain

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    Imperial Legacy is great policy, but i still like to see some policies regarding citadels and leftover generals in Honor. Something like in your Warrior Monks belief or giving generals to city states for influence.
     
  5. katfish

    katfish Chieftain

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    For now i see it the other way around. On deity its no problem to amass faith, but go lower and you will spam prophets. I rarely manage to buy more than 5 GP before i finish on emperor or immortal.
    And i think Rationalism and Freedom now are intended for wide small pop city empires, after you get it you start grow them and popping GPs around.
    Quite the paradox.:)
     
  6. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    Buying space parts is unlikely to come back but a 25% purchase reductions for buildings and units may make a return to some tier 2 Freedom and Autocracy (respectively) policies. I originally cut the purchase reductions because stacking purchase reductions is an extremely powerful strategy.
    --------
    The intent for honor was that the +25% combat strength and healing bonus for units in the same tile as the great general would make having multiple great generals on the same front still be useful.

    I experimented with having Citadel bonuses in Honor but eventually moved it from Honor to Autocracy because Honor was getting bloated with effects and needed to be trimmed down (it could still use more trimming). Additional things to do with surplus Great Generals may be added in the future.
    ---------
    This perspective is extremely helpful. As a Deity player it is easy to lose perspective on strategies that are ineffective on Deity can be efficient on lower difficulty levels.

    5 Great people would be ~7000 Faith over the first ~200 turns which is pretty good. Is your concern that you find the micromanaging mini-game of birthplaces annoying instead of interesting? Or is it more that birthplaces don't provide benefits worth the difficulty of getting them?
     
  7. katfish

    katfish Chieftain

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    I said rarely, and its usually when i do culture game and buy musicians too. Its no more than 3 scientists and occasional engineer.
    I mean birthplaces are counterproductive for playing tall, when i want GPs asap. Now it feels like freedom are suited for wide(when you get free specialists slots in poorly developed cities and +4 production from GP improvements set those cities running) more than order. I'm assuming its was your intention to shift freedom from Tall focused ideology to Wide specialist driven ideology. But you left Tall without any and it somewhat irks me.

    I get the feeling that Order are simplier and intended for ai or securing your winning place, while freedom are intended for Deity\Immortal players to catch up by carefully managing your cities. Was that your intention?

    When you put version with fixed bugs? I'm tempted to fix them myself and start playing asap:mwaha:
     
  8. cononderbee

    cononderbee Chieftain

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    Hi, I found this mod randomly a couple days ago and am using it with your religion mod, and just thought I'd add my thoughts on a couple points. I typically play on Large maps at Epic pace on King difficulty.

    --While I like the 'Theocracy' policy, in terms of fluff it feels out of place in the Piety tree--perhaps moving it to Liberty in place of 'Collective Rule'? The connection between religion and trade feels tenuous to me, but I think giving a bonus to expansive empires who'd most benefit from the extra gold makes sense. (To replace it I'd quite like to see a 'new cities start with x followers' policy somewhere--it's always seemed odd to me a city founded in 700AD when my religion is firmly in place still needs to be converted, wasting 500 or so FP).

    --The bonus for completing liberty seems underpowered to me, although it could just be my luck so far with resources. I've not felt the need to complete it because the extra hammers are relatively scarce for that stage in the game and other policies are a better investment. Maybe gaining two workers would be a better bonus?

    --The wording on the Rationalism opener is a little confusing, I'd change it to 'Gain +10 Sci and +10 Cul when a new citizen is born in cities with Universities.' That said I also think it's a little weak, but Rationalism in general has always been a great tree so it doesn't put me off opening it. The pop-up is a little annoying if you're going through a period mass growth though.

    --I'm not a big fan of the new 'Discipline'--to me it sort of feels that when it's available it won't be particularly useful, but by the time it would be useful I'm wanting to open up other policies. It could be I need to plan ahead more. I also think the Heroic Epic science boost is overpowered, and would probably move the purchasing of Landknechts to that position. I do like the attempt to make the Epic more worthwhile, it just seems to me that military players should have to make up their loss in beakers in other ways.

    --The Commerce closer feels weak consider the amount you'd be making per turn at that point--I guess the point is to make Commerce players have to spend money/reward them for doing so? But I would rather have more trade routes open up, as it's a common complaint about the game.

    Overall I've been enjoying the mod, I think it could use a little more stream-lining and less clutter but as a player who likes to roleplay a little I enjoy knowing I can choose to play as an expansive Holy Warrior empire without feeling gimped for not going tradition, or go the complete opposite and have it as a viable strategy. It does feel that the options are more balanced than the normal policies and I can actually ignore Tradition/Rationalism and not worry about it being a significantly less optimal strategy. I need to play around with the ideologies a bit more to see how they play.

    Edit: Forgot to add, I think all the Wonder changes are very good, they make a lot more sense to me than the normal set up. I don't usually build Terracotta Army but at least when the AI inevitably guns for it I feel they're gonna get good use from it rather than double their army size to a whopping 8 units.
     
  9. chumchu

    chumchu Chieftain

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    Great work! I like your new trees except piety, honor and in some ways liberty.

    Piety: There some policies with narrow uses, especielly early game: reformation (sacred sites or nothing) and theocracy (sometimes useful but should it not be in commerce?). Further they are required for more generally useful policies. Thirdly there is an overemphasis of shrines and temples denying the players the choice of boosting a religion without those through piety. I would do the following instead:

    Opener: 1 faith per city
    Generally useful, encourages early expansion. Better than liberty opener if it helps you get the right pantheon. Probably worse in the long run as the culture helps with border expansion and cheper settlers is nice.

    Organized religion: build shrines and temples in half the time, shrines provides +1 faith, temples +2.
    Makes shrines/temples decent by gathering all the bonii in the same policy. Good if you make a temple/shrine religon. If you have a special temple building you can stop at this point.

    Righteousness: +15% faith generation
    Scales well and rewards players for creating a good religion

    Cult of saints: (Requires Righteouness)
    Free Great prophet. Holy sites give + 3 gold +3 culture
    The problem with "free" great prophets is that it is hardly for free. The cost increase so rapidly that it is a small bonus if you can not get dynamic bonii for it. This is also what makes holy cities bad and why they need bonii. This comes early in the tree, so early that a holy site might be worthwhile unless you wnat something very specific in your religion, it should take max 25 turs to get a new one if you plants the first.

    Reformation: (requires Cult of saints)
    No change except the required policies. Having to take policies just to get a new one is not fun so I put it after the generally useful policies. There is a point in not making this the finisher so that you can get the extra belief for your religion without wasting too many policies

    Religous Tolerance: Cities benefits from an additional pantheon belief. -10% unhappiness from population.
    Piety needs some happiness and religous tolerance is generally not useful, though occasionally good (say if someone took desert faith from you). The change gives a bonus to tall empires to balance the bonus to wide empires from the opener, organised religion and religion in general.

    Finisher: 1 gold and 1 culture for every 5 followers of your religion. 25% toursim with civs of the same religion.
    Rewards the players for creating a good religion, the tourism bonus can come late in the tree for obvious reasons.

    Liberty: Putting the bonus from luxuries there is a simple change but good in so many ways. Settlers in the first policy is good as well. However ther rest of the tree is a mixed bag of not so useful stuff.

    I'm not sure liberty needs the garrison bonus with the extra hammers from cheaper settlers, more cities and finisher. As much focus is on resources liberty is somewhat dependent on the richness of the map but perhaps that can not be helped. How about bringing back the production bonus to buildings? You need to build a lot of those in your wide empire, especially if you want national wonders.

    The science for colloseums is strange and underpowered. Why have cheaper roads if you removed the bonus for connections? You could move the land trade route bonus from piety to commerce and the city connection bonus to liberty. What about 2 gold and 2 science per city connection instead of the colloseum policy?

    Honor: It is cluttered now, but definately stronger than the old one. How about putting all the bonii for great generals under leadership? How about putting Landsknechts and gold for kills under professional army? How about putting the combat bonii under discipline?

    Alternatively, the old disicipline had the nice bonus of encouragning formations of units, which now comes in autocracy at the point in history where formations started to lose meaning because of firepower. Change the place of concentration of forces and the bonuses to mounted units in honor, extend the bonus to tanks and call it Blitzkrieg/lightning warfare. Problem solved!

    Finally the finisher in commerce is strange since the player already has an incentive to spend to get the benefits of his investment as early as possible. How about changing it to an interest of around 2% per turn on saved gold. Then we have a nice balance between investments for immediate benefits and saving for later.
     
  10. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

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    Moving my comment here from the Steam page.

    With the massive advantages of the Liberty and Tradition, Piety seems a bit on the weak side.

    Would it be plausible to give Piety a bonus Founder belief upon completion, giving heavy incentive to play the religion spread game?
     
  11. Bezhukov

    Bezhukov Chieftain

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    " In Order games do you end up having trouble holding on to city-state alliances?"

    Yes, for the first time ever in CivV. It was great! Definitely made the late game more interesting.
     
  12. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    Ideologies
    Katfish, my intent with the ideologies wasn't to couple them too closely to the tall verse wide set up. Players already got to choose between tall verse wide at the start with Tradition and Liberty and I didn't want every tradition or liberty strategy to always be followed late game by a specific ideology. But in the current form are there specific polices or combinations of policies that together reinforce a wide or tall strategy?

    Order was planned as a "builder/productive city" ideology while Freedom was planned as a "great person/specialist/happiness" ideology. I'm simplifying a bit and there were other design considerations but that was a general identity intended for each.
    -----
    When using Urbanization (tier 1 freedom, +4 hammers per great person tile and landmark) does it change people's decision making process with respect to planting verse blubbing late game (post ideology) great people? Do you plant all your great people in range of one city to turn that city into a production powerhouse or do you use it to help develop newer cities? If you make a powerhouse production city, what do you usually use the production there for?
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    Piety
    Galgus, when you go Piety is there something specific you feel is missing that makes you wish you went Tradition or Liberty instead? Is there just an aggregate lack of raw power in the policies?

    cononderbee, I agree that Piety could use a bit of fluff changes. In theory Theocracy (+50% land trade route distance and +4 gold from land trade routes) is suppose to make it possible to easily generate additional religious pressure with your land trade routes (since they will now reach beyond the normal spread range). The gold is to make it more profitable to connect the initial two trade routes to foreign cities if a player is playing on a difficulty level where they weren't going to do that for the science already.

    I am currently prototyping a radically different approach with Piety. This approach may not bear any fruit so I don't want to promise it will see the light of day and it will probably need multiple weeks to iron out before it gets incorporated into the mod.
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    Honor
    I plan to get Honor a bit less cluttered over the next couple of versions. cononderbee, you mentioned that you disliked the science from Heroic in honor. Is your concern that the science boost shouldn't be in honor at all? Or that it just shouldn't be in the same policy that provide the happiness? Science and Happiness are two things everyone needs and they essentially shouldn't be together?
    -----
    Liberty
    As for Liberty, the garrison bonus was intended to make it easier for them to defend their cities (since newly founded cities tend to be vulnerable and closer to enemies). I don't expect it to be hugely valuable but it is on the way to the +2 hap per luxury.

    The intent for the cheaper roads was to make it worthwhile to build roads even before cities grow to decent populations. Lots of cities means lots of roads and cheaper road maintenance is kind of like "gold per city" without explicitly saying "per city".

    chumchu, with respect to the +2 Sci per colosseum do you not like it because you don't build colosseums? Or do you think +2 Sci isn't profoundly relevant since most early game science is coming from the National College?
    ------
    chumchu and cononderbee, with respect to the finisher for Liberty, how much production are you usually able to get out of it? Does it make you rethink your city placement at all or is a couple of hammers negligible compared getting luxury resources, natural wonders or other factors?

    The production from this is intended to replace the small production bonus for buildings. In theory, low population cities should be able to work fish/wheat/cattle to grow and still have a bit of production out of it to get the early small buildings out faster. Earlier versions of the mod had the production bonus provided for luxury resources too, but I was concerned that made it too good, since it was usually 4-5 production in the capital and 2-4 production in all other cities.
    -----
    Previously Liberty had a +15% production when building National Wonders but the effect was trimmed out to simplify the tree. The hard part of building National Wonders when playing wide wasn't the expense of the National Wonder itself but in getting every other city to build the required building.
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    Commerce
    I am reluctant to make the Commerce finish provide interest because it can lead to runaway gold income. With interest the more gold you have, the more you make, the more you have, the more you make, etc. There is essentially no upper bound on how much gold it could provide, especially to Deity level AIs who already have massive gold generation.

    cononderbee, you mentioned that you would have like more trade routes in the finisher of Commerce, is the +1 trade route in Wagon Trains not enough? I didn't want to repeat myself in the tree.

    In its current form the intent is for the tension to be between spending yourself down to zero each turn to maximize gold generation verse stockpiling cash to quickly purchase a specific building everywhere as soon as the tech finishes (such as public schools or factories) or to mass upgrade a unit as soon as the tech unlocking its upgrade finishes (such as cannons to artillery).
    -----
    I jumped around a lot in this post so I hope it didn't end up as confusing. If I didn't address anyone's question or concern feel free to mention it again.
     
  13. chumchu

    chumchu Chieftain

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    The garrison bonus is, as you say, not hugely valuable. I would call it marginal and argue that this is a good reason to remove it for the sake of elegant design, cities are too strong anyway. An interesting bonus to have instead would be a decrease in the science cost for additional cities by 20% (1 percentage point). This would tie into the current effect and will be relevant the entire game, making expansion more worthwhile.

    I really like the cheaper roads but I still feel that you will gain too little gold for them to be worth it economically early on. However, they are good for military purposes.


    Regarding colloseums. You do not build them if you do not have happiness problems, they cost a lot of hammers and maintenance. With the improved meritocracy it may be possible to go without them in the early game which is a needed boost to liberty. In the late game 2 science is a drop in an ocean. I dislike the design choice of adding bonii to buildings that you do not want to build (I am looking at you Piety). Coupling it to city connections makes it similar to messenger of the gods but whatever. It synergies well with the cheaper roads, it will be availiable earlier where it makes a difference and it is exactly what liberty needs. 1 science per city connection would for the reasons mentioned above be stronger than 2 science per colloseum. I would however make it at least 1 gold, 1 science since liberty is a bit weak overall.

    I think the finisher is really strong, and I would not extend it to luxury resources. It is a fun bonus though perhaps a bit unbalanced as it helps already strong positions. I would keep it as it is.

    Regarding the commerce finisher. If you save huge amounts of gold without using it, you are in effect wasting it. Remember that you probably have around 100 turns left by the time you finish commerce. You have to think of it in terms of alternative cost. As it is now, you want to invest gold as soon as possible, but keep a small buffer for flexibility. With a 2% interest there is actually a reason to save gold. Further, the effect fits the theme better than giving the players money for being broke. It is supposed to represent capitalism and trade; what is more fitting than counting interest and hoarding money.
     
  14. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

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    Piety's greatest bonus is the gold from trade routes, which may have trouble competing with Tradition's :c5gold: gains in the later phases of the game.

    Its also odd that it is limited to land trade routes, since an Empire focusing on trade routes would typically settle on the coasts.

    All three trees have :c5happy: bonuses, but Piety is likely outclassed by Liberty if the player is acquiring luxury resources properly.

    Its also odd that Piety's :c5happy: bonus seems more geared towards a wide empire while Liberty's is more of a trade bonus.

    The :c5science: on Holy Sites seems nice, but it requires using faith to spam them, without a discount from Mandate of Heaven if I remember correctly, and the old :c5gold: and :c5culture: bonuses were probably more useful, at least in the short term.

    It just feels like I'd always be better off going Tradition for a tall empire or Liberty for a wide, expanding one, with Piety getting small amounts of :c5culture: and :c5faith: with a minor advantage to playing the Missionary game without much reward.

    Mostly, I feel like Piety does not reward spreading religion adequately, so its faith becomes a clunky way of getting extra Great People often.

    The Founder belief bonuses it spreading religion is based on also tend to fall off.

    I'm interested in the new approach to Piety you mentioned.

    As a side note, I like the changes to the Commerce tree generally. :c5food: from Custom Houses will make them easier to work.

    Is the Commerce finisher affected by gamespeed? If so, what does it do at Marathon speed?
     
  15. katfish

    katfish Chieftain

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    You don't update download link on civfanatics?
     
  16. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    Katfish, the link on civfanatics has version 13, the latest public version of the mod. Is there somewhere where a link is outdated? (I did have an incorrect change log in the initial post, I've fixed it).
    -----
    Galgus, Piety boosted land trade routes because sea routes can already reach far enough to assist in providing pressure. Also, sea trade routes are generally better than land trade routes so land routes could use the help. Even with +4 Gold and +50% range from land trade routes I don't expect a player going Piety to stick with caravans if trade ships are something they can work with.

    Tradition and Liberty have the identity of tall and wide so I wanted Piety to be flexible enough to do either. That was the objective behind Piety's happiness structure. Players going wide would get lots of happiness out of their Shrines and Temples, while players going tall would get a burst of happiness out of the Grand Temple.

    The policies in Piety may not provide as much raw happiness or gold as Tradition and Liberty but the intent was that players going Piety could more easily get their choice beliefs that would provide happiness, gold or whatever else their strategy required.

    You are correct that Mandate of Heaven's -25% faith cost does not reduce the faith required to generate great prophets.

    You mentioned that the founder belief bonuses for spreading a religion tend to fall of, does that mean you are playing with Race for Religion as well?
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    The Commerce finisher always gives 100 gold if a player has zero gold on any game speed. What changes is the quantity of gold where the bonus goes away.

    On standard speed: 100 gold when treasury is empty, 0 gold when treasury has 1000.
    On Marathon speed: 100 gold when treasury is empty, 0 gold when treasury has 3000.
    -----
    chumchu, the garrison bonus in Liberty has a similar purpose as the friendly lands attack bonus in Tradition, a small defensive military bonus that can be easily accessed if suddenly attacked. Each defensive bonus is coupled with a small economic bonus so that the policy isn't completely irrelevant in times of peace.

    When playing wide colloseums may not be the first building a new city constructs (those are usually monuments, granaries, stoneworks) but they are usually pretty high (around the same time as libraries or workshops, though after circus). Having 6+ Happiness usually means its time for another city (except when trying to build the National College timing) and colloseums are one of the few ways to snag extra happiness.

    I tend to build colloseums every game, sooner or later (unless I'm playing a civ with a happiness providing unique building or got a +3 happiness per city religion). When going wide I tend to need that happiness asap, especially when cities start with 2 pop and the +1 food helps them grab the early cheap citizens quicker. Do you find you can manage your happiness without building colloseums? Is there a happiness combo you've found and had great success with?
    -----
    With respect to the gold generation in Liberty verse Tradition, do you find going wide means going bankrupt? The Tradition policies have more raw gold generation than Liberty because wide empires tend to naturally generate much more gold than tall empires.
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    With respect to the Commerce finisher, in civ some strategies require stockpiling gold while others always have something useful to burn gold on and can spend gold as it is generated. For example, strategies revolving on maintaining multiple city-state alliances always have something valuable to spend gold on. While rush-buying Universities in every core city to accelerate science generation requires stockpiling gold.

    The fact that the player wasn't spending their gold as it was coming in isn't a big sacrifice because Universities are just so good that having them online ~15 turns sooner is much better than having a slightly faster Market or Workshop.

    If a player often finds success with stockpiling strategies they will probably find that the Commerce finisher shakes up their play-style. If a player often finds success with strategies that do not require stockpiling gold than the Commerce finisher will reward them for doing what they normally do. For players who have been considering incorporating the Commerce finisher into their strategies, is stockpiling a common feature of strategies you use? Or do you often find success with strategies that spend gold as it comes in?
     
  17. katfish

    katfish Chieftain

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    I, for one, almost never stockpile. There are always places to spent gold.
    And about piety, i also don't like anything with "only land\sea" trade routes. I always try to settle on coast and my favorite civs are all coast biased.
    And i'm sure you know how useless Reformation SP on Deity.
    It makes 2 near useless SPs on a single tree.

    How about making honor give some free buildings(like courthouse, barracks or monument) upon capture? Would it be to overpowered?
     
  18. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

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    I am not currently using that mod, and I only meant that beliefs that give bonuses from foreign cities following them tend to fall off relative to alternative sources of these bonuses.

    On the Commerce finisher question, I tend to stockpile resources to rush buy most buildings when settling a new city, and save up to quickly add a newly researched building to my cities.

    Its also always useful to have :c5gold: in the bank in the advent of an unexpected war. That bonus would definitely create a strategic decision.

    However, with city-states it may be a bit awkward to decide between saving for the more efficient higher gold sums or trickling money in to take advantage of the bonus.
     
  19. chumchu

    chumchu Chieftain

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    I do not see the need for defensive bonii in these tradition and libety but it is not a big deal. Increasing the gold and science in liberty and increasing the overall strength of piety is however a big deal.

    About liberty: whereas liberty civs can perhaps work more luxury tiles for gold, they also pay for many more for buildings and/or a larger army. Without the finisher great scientist liberty civs fall behind tradition civs in science. Further, the extra specialists from tradition encourage a tradition/rationalism/freedom combo as the rout to maximise science. If you drop the extra science per city by 1pp/20% as I suggested this would go a long way towards being able to play wide science. In my experience a standard build order in new cities puts military units/library(for NC)/monument/granary/circus/caravans/stone works before colloseums. They are needed to boost your population for science around turn 100 when education looms on the horizon, before that you should be able to mangae without them. With the new meritocray you could perhaps go without them all game, with a mercantile city state or a happiness religion.
     
  20. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    Chumchu, the defensive bonuses in initial policy trees allow honor to have more military bonuses without degenerating the game to "take honor or die". The bonuses are intended to make fighting with or against them slightly different, to add a bit of variety to early game warfare.

    As for having a policy reduce the rate-of-science-costs-per-city, there are some technical constraints that make that tricky.
    ------
    Galgus, do you often settle new cities after finishing Commerce or it is mostly conquered cities?

    I tend to prefer buying advanced buildings in my core cities to buying basic buildings in my young cities because you get more hammers for your gold on the more advanced buildings. But given the spend-it-or-lose-it nature of the Commerce finisher sometimes I only have enough money for basic buildings.
    ------
    Katfish, I would rather incentivize honor to build Courthouses by providing extra happiness on Courthouses than short-circuit the "what to build" decision by providing free Courthouses.

    With respect to Reformation Beliefs, while many of them are pretty marginal Glory of God (faith buy any type of great person) and Jesuit Education (faith buy science buildings) are both very useful. In the event that both are taken Charitable Missions (extra influence with city-states from gold gifts) is usually a decent grab since gold is easy to get and city-state alliance perks are valuable.
     

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