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Reform and Rule

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Modpacks' started by Machiavelli24, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Cyryl

    Cyryl Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
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    No that is not the case...I have no other mods except for some official mods a friend installed like wonders of the aincent world, and a civ or two, Korea and Polynesia.

    So ya thanks but, na I do not have that mod that you talked about.
     
  2. kosubii

    kosubii Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
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    Have this going (minus the Liberty and Tradition trees) with Info Addict and a custom civ (which has no science bonuses, to clarify for ahead) and ran into a bug:

    Adopted Mercantilism policy in the Commerce tree, made a research agreement, began to research Astronomy, which was supposed to take 5 turns, and then on the 3rd turn it was suddenly done. Upon picking another tech, noticed that I suddenly had 44k extra science so I was able to research anything in 1 turn.

    Tried reloading to a few turns back before I began researching Astronomy and the same thing still occurs, any help?
     
  3. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
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    818
    Cyryl, usually that happens when multiple mods that change social policies clobber (overwrite) each other. If you don't have other mods activated than it could be that the download of RnR got corrupted. Deleting and redownloading RnR may resolve the issue. Let me know if you're still having this issue.

    Kosubii, that sounds odd. Did you have any policies in the Rationalism tree when this behavior happened? (Probably not given that you were researching Astronomy, but it is possible). The extra Science came when the Research Agreement finished right? Not when the Mercantilism policy was taken.

    I'll take a stab at reproducing this. If I have trouble reproducing a save from your game (and links to all the other mods you were using) will help.
     
  4. kosubii

    kosubii Chieftain

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    Yup, didn't adopt anything in the Rationalism tree. The research agreement didn't finish, I had just signed it, mentioned it since it seems to be the only other thing I did related to science in those few turns. The extra science seems to have come rather randomly to me actually.

    To clarify, since I noticed more upon another load, on the turn it came, Genghis asks me for a research agreement (science is all normal before the trade screen with him pops up) and then, regardless of accepting or rejecting it, Astronomy went from 3 turns til completion to just 1, which upon hover over shows the ~40k excess science. I noticed this all while other CPU players are still completing their turn after Genghis' and I'm waiting for mine. Other CPU players had their turn before Genghis as well, I don't think anybody asked me anything before him on that turn though (I'll double check, but at most it would've been Russia asking me for a DoF).

    And yea gladly, just let me know. Appreciate the help!
     
  5. pyroflare77

    pyroflare77 Chieftain

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    Liberty's finisher is not working for me. I fiddled around with the XML to try and reintroduce the free great person in addition to this effect. The free great people occurred, but normal resources remained unenhanced. Also, the addition to the text of Liberty's finisher never showed up.

    So I decided to do a fresh install without any of my edits to see if it works, and the cattle and stone near a city did not get extra production. I was using in game editor for all of these tests, but I don't see how that would impede this mod in any way.

    Basically, is there an issue with Liberty's finisher? And how would I set things up to include the bonus production and the free great person?
     
  6. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    818
    I just ran a few quick tests with the public version of Reform and Rule and it was working fine.

    When you said that the text for liberty's finisher didn't show up, did you mean the policy window didn't have text saying what would happen when you completed?

    Liberty's finisher is technically implemented through a building called "Liberty finisher" that is placed in every city. Did you see this building in your cities? (It has the same icon as the palace). Was this the text that was not showing up? It should look like:
    Spoiler :
    LibertyFinisherExample.jpg

    ------------------
    To make the Liberty finisher also provide 1 free great person you would need to find the file: "Reform and Rule (BNW) (v XXX)\Social Policies\2 Liberty\4 Liberty Finisher.xml"

    At the top of the file will be a chunk of text that looks like:
    Code:
    <Policies>
        <Update>
            <Set [COLOR="Red"]NumFreeGreatPeople="0" IncludesOneShotFreeUnits="false"[/COLOR]/>
            <Where Type="POLICY_LIBERTY_FINISHER"/>
        </Update>
    </Policies>
    Change the red values to "1" and "true".
     
  7. pyroflare77

    pyroflare77 Chieftain

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    Hm. Apparently the building does not appear unless you unlock the social policy in game (ie without the in game editor). And the added text was adding back the great person detail to the liberty finisher's text in that same file you directed me to. That does not show up in game: it only says the production bonus but still provides the great person. Nothing impeding gameplay now, just a minor annoyance.
     
  8. Sequm

    Sequm Chieftain

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    Jul 4, 2012
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    I think it's great, but Order has to be buffed for science more.

    Fun fact time:
    &#8226; USSR launched the first satelite, animals, men, and women into space.
    &#8226; USSR achieved more space firsts and holds more space records than the USA (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight_records)
    &#8226; USSR landed a probe on Venus and recorded the only footage
    &#8226; USSR built the first space station (Mir-1) before any other such as the ISS
    &#8226; USSR invented ICBMs, detonated the most powerful nuke

    Overall, they had a strong science program that surpassed that of the US. Order should have more early bonuses to science, and I was sad that factories don't get a buff in your mod but it's understandable. I like that you made order better for a science victory, but it'd be cool if it was even stronger. Freedom and autocracy could get more buffs to even it out, but Order has to be more science focused! :) thanks for considering it at least

    Also, have Mac users been able to run this fine?
     
  9. bane_

    bane_ Howardianism High-Priest

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    1,559
    This definitively changes gameplay. It's a different game, really, the Honor (must needed) changes are exceptional and the Rationalism powerdown is good for balance as well.
    Surely a great mod!
     
  10. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
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    Sequm, you may like the version of "National Space Agency" (Order level 3) that will be in the big update coming out next week:

    Spoiler :
    National Space Agency
    • +50% Science from Oxford University, the Hubble Space Telescope and the International Space Station.
    • +50% Production when constructing spaceship parts.

    ---------------
    bane, Honor got a decent number of changes (second only to the big changes in Piety). You may like the new Leadership (Honor policy):
    Spoiler :
    Leadership
    • Great Generals are earned +50% faster.
    • +2 movement for Great Generals.
    • Gain 250 Science when a Great General is born.

    ---------------------
    Here are some names of a few more policies. See if you can guess what their effect will be:

    Ordained Priesthood
    Urban Renewal
    Tenure
    Infiltration Tactics
    Expeditionary Force
     
  11. Maguyver

    Maguyver Chieftain

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    Hope you don't mind my saying, but I am kind of concerned that 250 Science is way, way too much. I'd maybe cap it at 100, and this is coming from someone that plays with +260% Science on standard.

    Also, I don't know if you plan on revisiting Race for Religion or not, but I am finding Baptism to be the absolute only choice for the Enhancer. The production bonus is crazy.

    Anyway, I couldn't play without either of these mods, so keep up the good work and I can't wait for the update. :)

    -edit-
    Of course you've probably been play testing, so perhaps the Great Generals spawn infrequently enough for it to not be an issue. I can only guess!
     
  12. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    I like hearing other people's analysis of effects, especially weird ones that can be tricky to judge. I should acknowledge that the +50% Science from Heroic Epic effect has been replaced with a +25% Production bonus, so no more pseudo second National College for Honor. 250 Science is approximately 90% of an early Medieval tech and ~50% of a late Medieval tech.

    I've seen people do some unique strategies around it, some of the most extreme have involved Attila and Sweden. If you don't want to guess but would rather experience, I could send you the current internal version of the update.
    --------
    As for Race for Religion, I do have an update for that which is also in testing. Once the Reform and Rule update is public I plan to switch over to finalizing the Race for Religion update. Already in it is a nerf to Baptism (the production is going from 10 per to 5 per). Baptism was already a little to good G&K and BNW's internal trade routes only made it better. Papal Primacy is also getting nerfed to just +15 Influence from non-Ideology Social Policies.
     
  13. Maguyver

    Maguyver Chieftain

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    Alright, I'm with you. Realistically anyone like myself that is playing with a higher research rate probably won't notice as big of an impact anyhow.

    Just a thought though... what if instead of science it began a Golden Age? That way you could completely divorce science from the military or production; unless you weren't trying to.

    Thanks for the offer but I'll just wait until you release. I'm going to use it anyhow, and besides if there were ever anything I didn't like in somebody's mod I would just simply adjust it to suit myself.

    I found that 5 was also a good number for Baptism; tried rolling with only 1 and that was woefully too little.

    Keep up the good work!
     
  14. bane_

    bane_ Howardianism High-Priest

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    The Great General boost to science will be negligible for high tech empires, but I don't think that should be a factor. Most Honor adopters will have to sacrifice most of their time with producing Units and the birth of a Great General giving them an edge on the scientific fields (without making them BETTER than those focused on that) is a great idea.
    I don't think 250 is broken, but it is high enough to justify not being able to be the second pick, in my opinion.

    The +2 :c5moves: is very good, but don't you think that will remove a bit of the Sweden's UU (the one that imparts it's moves to the Great General) and the Khan?
     
  15. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    But then it would be too similar to a new effect in Piety :).
    ---------
    With respect to great general movement, you're spot on that going from 2->4 is much more valuable than going from 4->6+. 4 is enough to keep up with mounted units and tanks, generals only need to go faster than that when running away (which probably implies a catastrophic retreat).

    There are some marginal fiddly tricks you can do by moving the general into a hex with a unit, attacking with the unit. Moving the general to an adjacent unit, attacking with that second unit. This allows one general to give the +25% strength bonus for units in the same tile to multiple attacking units per turn.

    Even though Khans and Sweden don't get much value out of +2 movement they do get lots of value out of the science because they are two civilizations that already want to generate lots of Great Generals. Sweden wants them to gift to city-states and Kelshikes are pretty much always racking up Great General points.
     
  16. bane_

    bane_ Howardianism High-Priest

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    Absolutely true! :lol:
    What I meant, though, is that this can *maybe* take a bit of their 'schtick'. I can't argue about the Science boost being awesome for them, but my point is about the movement for other Civs, making them - specially the Khan - lose a bit of their advantage.

    I haven't thought about the extra bonus for movement you talked about, and that is indeed great!

    Hey, take all I say with a grain of salt, I haven't played enough to give real data. :)
     
  17. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    I'm sorry bane I realize now that I missed your point and essentially went off on a tangent in my last post. Is it accurate to characterize your view as:

    "+2 movement is an interesting effect, but it is an interesting effect we've all seen already (with Khans and Sweden). And that interesting effects are good but original interest effects are even better."

    Combined with:

    "+2 movement is an interesting effect but part of what makes it interesting is that not everyone has it. If everyone has it it loses its uniqueness and contrast."

    I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. I try to avoid "repeating myself" or "doing the same effect twice" in mods and across them. My love of truly original interesting effects is why I have such an irrational fondness for the Commerce Finisher.
     
  18. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    The "On a Sword and a Prayer" update is out! This update contains lots of changes, most notably is the large reworks of Honor and Piety (hence the name). While long time Honor users will recognize many of the effects their re-ordering should allow some different timings to use for your strategies.

    Piety has a bunch of new stuff. Previous versions of Piety didn't provide enough benefits during the very early stages of the game to be competitive with the other initial trees. Now Pious empires can ignore building Monuments and instead use Shrines as their main source of Culture early on. Ordained Priesthood makes spreading religion much easier and Mandate of Heaven can provide lots of science to a strategy that pumps out lots of Great Prophets.

    While Honor and Piety changed the most, there are also many changes in the Ideologies. In Freedom many effects got moved around to allow for different combinations of level 1 tenets to be viable. Urban Renewal's reduction on building purchases gives Freedom a way to convert surplus Great Merchant cash into well developed cities.

    Autocracy also got a few changes. The tenets providing combat boosts have been streamlined and slightly improved. Educated Officer's new reduction in the gold purchase cost of units ensures that after a bloody fight to capture an enemy city you'll be able to use the plundered gold to replace any losses and continue grinding your foe to dust! Imperial Legacy not only shows hidden antiquity sites but also provides a science boost for landmarks (because Indiana Jones teaches us that Autocratic Nazis love two things 1) Ancient history and 2) Futuristic super weapons!).

    I've been looking forward to having this update ready for you guys and I hope you enjoy it! Please let me know what smart new combos you come up with or whacky strategies you find success (or hilarious failure) with!
     
  19. roymend

    roymend Chieftain

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    Hi Machiavelli24, thank you for this great mod! Here's some feedback on the new version:

    *The changes to piety makes it a pain to complete: the right part (Ordained Priesthood, Theocracy) is pointed towards a missionary-focused strategy, while the middle part is for great prophet-spam strategy. So if you choose to complete the tree for the reformation belief, you pretty much wasted two policies. My advice here is to make these changes:
    *Put the golden age points from prophets in Ordained Priesthood, the science from holy sites in Theocracy, and the happiness from temples in Organized religion.
    *Add a -25% faith cost to prophets in Ordained Priesthood (not sure if it already does that), and a gold bonus to Mandate of Heaven - maybe gold from temples and more religious spread from trade routes.
    Reasoning: This makes the right part of the piety tree fit 2 different strategies at the same time, while not being overpowered - like the patronage tree in your mod. You can choose to ignore missionaries and use mainly great prophets, or vice versa - but you can't do both, just because, well, you have limited faith. The middle part of the tree enhances temples, so you won't fall behind your rivals who took tradition/liberty.
    *Reformation doesn't fit the piety tree - faster great writers has no connection to religion. Maybe culture specialists in the Grand Temple instead? (just a crazy idea)
    *Liberty finisher is too weak in my opinion. Maybe a free golden age?
    *Don't you think the Exploration finisher should be changed?

    But all in all, it's a great update and this mod really improves the game. One more question tho - do you think this mod is close to a final and stable version or is still a subject to future updates?
     
  20. Machiavelli24

    Machiavelli24 Mod creator

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    That is a fantastic question. In the short term (next 2-3 weeks) my plan is to keep some bandwidth open to deal with any bugs people find in the update. Previous versions had an embarrassing quantity of bugs. I hope this update will have less issues (since I was able to do more rigorous testing on it and the scope of the changes were much smaller) but to quote Dijkstra "Testing shows the presence, not the absence of bugs".

    After people have had some time to adjust their strategies to the new policies I will probably release another update that will refine any rough spots that were created by the "On a Sword and a Prayer" update. Numbers may get tweaked up or down. If any ability ends up being problematic it could be replaced. A few policies that have become bloated may get hit by the editor's knife.

    Longer term, I may experiment with a complete replacement for the Rationalism tree. But at this time frame (at least 2-3 months) the plan is pretty flexible.

    In conclusion, this moment represents a point of temporary stability for Reform and Rule. However, it does not mean the mod is now set in stone.
    -----------
    Piety
    Ordained Priesthood does not make Great Prophets cheaper. There are some technical limitations that make this tricky to do with Social Policies.

    As you keenly observed, there is a tension between a Missionary approach and a Great Prophet approach. Do you find one approach to be superior to the other (given the current benefits the policies provide)?

    There are parts of Ordained Priesthood and Mandate of Heaven that provide value even if a player is following the opposite (Missionary vs Great Prophet) approach. Do you just wish these parts were stronger? (Example: +25% Science from the Grand Temple instead of +4).

    There was suppose to be a subtle link where "Great Prophet = Tall" and "Missionary = Wide". I could play that aspect up more.

    As for Reformation, do you see it as the policy you would always pick last (if you were completing the Piety tree)? Or is your concern more that it lacks synergy or the flavor of it is unintuitive? My thinking behind Reformation was that if Pious empires are not building Monuments than they need other sources of Culture to help them fill out their policies.
    -----------
    Exploration

    With respect to the exploration finisher/tree could you elaborated on your view of it? I have a vision for the Exploration tree but I don't think it is being communicated well. Exploration is the most likely tree to get adjustments to it in the next version.
    ------------
    Liberty
    Do you find the finisher so weak you don't bother completing the tree? If so, what policies do you skip?

    In the past (back in the G&K days) Liberty's finisher was +1 production for all resources. It got toned down to its current version because it was pretty easy to get 2-3 luxuries in every city. An alternate version of Liberty's finisher that I've considered using is "+1 prod from bonus resources, +1 gold from luxury resources". It isn't strictly better (because in general production is more valuable than gold) but the gold gained will be greater than the production lost.
     

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