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Regarding Unit Upgrades and Other Assorted Commentaries

Chandrasekhar

Determined
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Mar 30, 2006
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I was going to post the following points in their respective threads, but I believe I have enough ideas here to merit a full-fledged suggestion discusion thread.

1) The AI seems extremely hesitant to upgrade the units that require resources and buildings. Units that don't require any resources or buildings (I believe the Drown fall into this category?) are commonly built, however. I'm not entirely certain whether they're not even researching the appropriate techs or if they simply aren't choosing to build them.

In a more or less peaceful scenario, this doesn't hurt them much. The barbarians also don't seem to build axemen, worg riders, or anything like that until much later, so the AI and the barbarians maintain a status quo.

This balance is disturbed, however, by the human player. A human can easily build a single training yard/hunting lodge and several axemen/hunters without disturbing their economy. This not only allows a human to completely overwhelm most AI players in the early-midgame, it also allows them to defeat any barbarian attacks with dreary ease, and makes them more or less impervious to any attacks the AI launch.

Suggestion: Greatly increase the AI tech priority of Bronze Working and Horseback Riding. Prioritize building a training yard/stable in one of their high :hammers: producing cities. Increase barbarian tech level and tier-2 spawns to compensate, and to provide adequate challenge to the human player.

2) I've noticed the AI building the wrong improvements on resource tiles many times now. Specifically, they seem to like building farms on reagents, dye, and other plantation improvements.

This is indicative of the fact that some of the resource improvements are much less efficient to get (from the AI's point of view) than to simply replace with other improvements. I've actually noticed myself agreeing with them at times, resulting in the cottage-sheep and cottage-corns that I'm so well known for in multiplayer. Still, this results in them having very few resources, either to keep or to enhance their happicap and healthiness, or to trade.

It's easy to see why the AI doesn't prioritize plantations. Calendar gives the ability to build plantations and a mediocre wonder. Hunting gives hunting lodges (potential +1 :), +1 :health:), the first tier-2 unit, and access to three more techs, one of which founds a powerful early religion.

Suggestion: This is a toughie. Simply rebalancing the tech costs would mean that plantations would be everywhere and camps would be inefficient to build. However, simply moving the hunting lodge and hunters to the Tracking tech would serve the tri-purpose of balancing the beaker costs of axemen and hunters (currently hunters cost 325 :science: while axemen and horseback riders cost 725 :science: each), allowing the cost of hunting to be balanced with that of Calendar, and giving a purpose to that currently useless Tracking tech. That's the solution I'd push for.

3) If you've ever tried to get a conquest victory late game, but don't want to keep the cities to conquer, you've probably noticed how irritating it is to have masses of orc spearmen spawn in the newly created fog of war to come after your cities.

This doesn't increase the difficulty, as the axemen and possibly rangers that you have at your disposal by this point can take care of the barbarians with ease. It does make for a huge amount of micro-management, though, as lizardmen and spearmen swarming out of the fog of war can easily capture workers or make your tiles unworkable while you try to defend your borders. It's an annoyance, and extra micromanagement besides, and I believe it shoudl be stopped.

Suggestion: I know the game stores residual culture, as building a new city in an area previously held by the enemy will cause that city to start with a low percentage of its native culture. What I'd like to see is residual culture stopping barbarians from spawning. I'm not sure if that's possible, but I'd love to have it implemented if it is.

4) Blitz comes too late. I know this is just an opinion, but when you can get 2-move units after a tier-1 tech, it becomes an issue. It's a powerful ability, yes, but it's not so powerful as to cost the same amount as a tier-4 unit.

If I have an axeman with combat III, and my oponents just have warriors, I'd very much like to be able to cut through them without pause each turn. If my foe is well defended, then my axeman will become worn down after some attacks and need to heal for a few turns. If he's not well-defended, then he deserves to be destroyed quickly. Requiring units to only attack once per turn for the majority of the game simply slows down warfare, and, Kael, you've said quite a bit that when someone is going to win against an enemy, you'd prefer them to be able to do it quickly instead of with a long, drawn out war of attrition whose outcome is already known from the beginning.

Suggestion: Move Blitz to an earlier tech. Duh.:p I think adding it to a tech in the horseman tech path would add some much needed spice to that line.

Well, that's all for now, folks. Fire away, I'd like to see how these are recieved.
 
2) I've noticed the AI building the wrong improvements on resource tiles many times now. Specifically, they seem to like building farms on reagents, dye, and other plantation improvements.
Like you said, this isn't a bad idea, and I'll pop a farm or cottage on quarries or plantation needed resources early on, but I'll replace it later. This is what the AI needs to do. Resource provding improvements should be prioritized far above what their (usually superior anyway) tile yields would suggest, and the AI should be able to see the need to tear down old improvements if neccessary.
I dan't address the first point, really, other than to agree that it's still an issue.
 
1) Something does need to be done here, the AI will quite often have no decent units despite having the techs needed. Maybe the problem with them not upgrading is that they just don't have enough gold? Maybe they're resistant about upgrading? Drown don't get upgraded, they get special abilitied, so maybe there's something about that that could help other units?

2) Moving some of the Hunting Techs to tracking has been something I've thought would be nice too, and hunters specifically since at the moment hunting gives the earliest strength 3 unit, making it like a conquest tech (-25% city attack isn't a big impediment when you have 50% more strength than the units you'll be fighting). One problem with this is they're called 'Hunters' which works with the tech called 'Hunting', though maybe those techs could switch positions and tech costs... it does make sense for exploration to lead to tracking and tracking to lead to hunting, I think.

3) Personally I like that. By the late game there's never any barbarians, so this finally brings them back. But I was thinking about this, and what would be flavourful would be if the barbs that spawned were UU's of the civ of which the remaining culture belonged to.

4) I agree with this, I never end up with Blitz until the game is so far over already. And the horse line NEEDS some love, its pitiful currently, with high tech costs, no economy boosters or useful buildings, and weak-for-their-tier units that come later than other tiers.
 
Sureshot said:
1) Something does need to be done here, the AI will quite often have no decent units despite having the techs needed. Maybe the problem with them not upgrading is that they just don't have enough gold? Maybe they're resistant about upgrading? Drown don't get upgraded, they get special abilitied, so maybe there's something about that that could help other units?

I think this is mostly because they dont have the required buildings. They can spend hundreds of turns on buildings the city dont need, like health buildings in a size one city with 10 health and 4 unhealthiness (or less). Etc.

2) Moving some of the Hunting Techs to tracking has been something I've thought would be nice too, and hunters specifically since at the moment hunting gives the earliest strength 3 unit, making it like a conquest tech (-25% city attack isn't a big impediment when you have 50% more strength than the units you'll be fighting). One problem with this is they're called 'Hunters' which works with the tech called 'Hunting', though maybe those techs could switch positions and tech costs... it does make sense for exploration to lead to tracking and tracking to lead to hunting, I think.
Sounds like a good idea.

3). I dunno, I like that the barbs spawn when you cant see the area, its a good mechanic for me.

4) I agree with this, I never end up with Blitz until the game is so far over already. And the horse line NEEDS some love, its pitiful currently, with high tech costs, no economy boosters or useful buildings, and weak-for-their-tier units that come later than other tiers.

Sure, blitz could come earlier. But not too early, we dont want to make Orthus Axe lose value. ;)
 
I would love to see blitz go to the cavalry line, and signifigant increase in strength for the units that are contained therein (not only to make the whole path more interesting, but to add more variety to the units in general, since the majority of late game units are 11, 12, or 13 strength.. why not 17/18 strength elephants, since they are so big, and stuff. To put a bit of fear into the mithril golem, at least!)
 
Wow, are my points so obviously perfect that they merit no discussion to clarify? It might be my fault for posting during a slow week on the board, but I was hoping for a bit more of a reaction.

Point (1) of course sounds good, but I'm really not sure how feasible it is. I just know that the AI remains pitifully weak in almost all circumstances. Point (2) involves rearranging the tech tree, which of course must always be deeply thought out, but I see no glaring troubles with the concept. Point (3) is really just an irritation for me, and I honestly didn't expect it to be that big a hit. Point (4) is probably the simplest to carry out, though whether it's needed or not is debatable.
 
Chandrasekhar said:
Wow, are my points so obviously perfect that they merit no discussion to clarify? It might be my fault for posting during a slow week on the board, but I was hoping for a bit more of a reaction.

Point (1) of course sounds good, but I'm really not sure how feasible it is. I just know that the AI remains pitifully weak in almost all circumstances. Point (2) involves rearranging the tech tree, which of course must always be deeply thought out, but I see no glaring troubles with the concept. Point (3) is really just an irritation for me, and I honestly didn't expect it to be that big a hit. Point (4) is probably the simplest to carry out, though whether it's needed or not is debatable.

Point (1) has been worked on, if I read correctly in one of Kaels latest posts. They will now build training yards etc when they have access to everything needed for a new unit upgrade.

Point (2) is another AI flaw, and who doesnt want to see the AI gets better?

Point (3) I didnt agree with you on, I like the way it is. If you cant keep an eye on that territory, you deserve the barbarian spawns.

Point (4) I agree that blitz should come earlier, and also agree that cavalry line needs to be better. Simple as that.
 
i like the suggestion for (3), as warriors and scouts are from a tier 0 tech (no tech needed), and axemen, archers, horsemen, prophets, and adepts are ALL from tier 3 techs, where as hunters are from tier 2 techs and are balanced to be in the same category as the tech tier 3 units.

right now Hunters are an effective conquest unit, they're available the earliest and lead to a religion and super rangers, and to even get to Archers you need to first have hunting, which pretty much leads to ignoring archery, since you already have an effective strength 3 unit, who also gains versatility, and whose next stage (the ranger) is same strength as the archers next stage (the longbow) and the tech is much much much much cheaper for them.

switching hunting and tracking would be quite nice, though i still think the problem will exist once you get to the next stage units (bowyering is still too expensive at 2/3rds its old cost... 1/4 might have made it worthwhile but not 2/3rds)
 
I'm eager to see how the AI changes how it handles unit upgrades with the changes that are being made. I'm hoping that an improved AI will mean that barbarian spawns can be made more difficult, as the AI players might be able to handle it then.
 
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