Religion as Primary Ideology

JFogg

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
7
Location
Cincinnati, OH, USA
I've been lurking in this forum for a short time, and I've been thinking a little bit about the use of religion in the mod. I've seen proposals ranging from ditching religion altogether, to creating a new set of religions within the SMAC fiction, to using religions as substitutes for the Wealth/Power/Knowledge civic choices. Instead, I'd like to propose an alternative that I think is closer to the original SMAC spirit: using religions to represent the ideologies of each faction. Besides giving ideology a more central role in Planetfall, the main advantage of this alternative is that it allows factions to try to spread their vision of society through means short of conquest. Lal and Deidre are ideologues, yes, but crusading warfare doesn't quite fit their personalities- they would try to win hearts and minds through peaceful means.

It would work like this: there would be at least seven "ideologies" (religions), one for each of the original factions and probably for several of the Alien Crossfire human factions as well. Ideologies would not be discovered, but would exist at the beginning of the game, and would be permanently associated with a certain faction (e.g. "collectivism" for the Hive, "survivalism" for the Spartans). Every new base would automatically be given the ideology associated with its founding faction. The primary effect of having an ideology present in a base would be that the citizens would demand certain Social Engineering choices, creating positive happiness if the preferred civic were chosen and negative happiness if a different one were chosen.

At the beginning of the game, this would primarily function as an elegant way to encourage the player to choose the "right" civic type for his faction. After researching an appropriate technology, factions would be able to build "missionaries" to spread their ideology at foreign bases, which would coexist alongside that base's original ideology, just as in Civ 4. This would create a commerce bonus between the owner of the base and the owner of the new ideology, in addition to the happiness bonuses/penalties resulting from Social Engineering choices which are pleasing/hateful to that ideology. The presence of foreign ideologies in a particular base would give that base's owner an incentive to pick Social Engineering choices in line with those ideologies, which in turn means better relations with that ideology's owning faction. Peaceful ideological struggle, then, becomes both a possibility and a worthwhile goal: if Lal can convert enough of the Morganites to humanitarianism, he not only wins the friendship of that faction but also a valuable boost in base-to-base commerce.

Politics choices in the Social Engineering screen could also determine how you interact with foreign ideologies, sort of like how in BTS your Economics civic determines how you interact with Corporations. A Fundamentalist faction might be completely immune to the spread of foreign ideologies; a Police State might be threatened by them and have to resort to costly methods of stamping them out; a Democracy might be powerless to prevent their spread but suffer fewer negative consequences from having them around.

Representing religion as ideology in this way would be very consistent with the original SMAC flavor, and a great way to leverage a uniquely-Civ 4 feature to enhance the original SMAC experience. To be frank, I wish there had been an option like this in SMAC to begin with.

Please, let me know your thoughts!
 
It would be nice if the missionaries could choose to clear out an opposing ideology in a base if the base already supports the unit's ideology.

I think it would be cool to have the ideology spread to units created at the base as well (like religion in FFH). So a base of "Survivalists" would always spawn units with the Spartan promotion (rename the promo to Survivalist?) until another ideology was spread into the city, at which point new units would be 50/50 Spartan or the other idealogy. So if you could peacefully spread your ideology, even some of your friend's units would start getting your faction bonuses instead of its' own. We would, of course, need a separate faction promotion for each ideology.
 
Awesome.

Could there be a way to add new ideologies for player-created factions (modmods)?

I don't know much about the coding that would be involved, but that doesn't sound like it would be hard to implement, once the base code was established. The modders might need to delve a bit into the Python, however.

It would be nice if the missionaries could choose to clear out an opposing ideology in a base if the base already supports the unit's ideology.

Do you mean removing ideologies from your own cities, or opponents' cities? Removing ideologies from other civs' cities seems somewhat implausible in the setting (all of the Spartans will give up their Spartanism because the nice environmentalists asked them to?), but maybe it could work if you made it sufficiently difficult and/or gave people ways to defend against that. In complement to that, perhaps that could create an avenue to actually flip bases over to your side using ideology.

Removing ideologies from your own cities would be cool, I agree, though I think that certain civics should affect your ability to do that (democracies couldn't).

I think it would be cool to have the ideology spread to units created at the base as well (like religion in FFH). So a base of "Survivalists" would always spawn units with the Spartan promotion (rename the promo to Survivalist?) until another ideology was spread into the city, at which point new units would be 50/50 Spartan or the other idealogy. So if you could peacefully spread your ideology, even some of your friend's units would start getting your faction bonuses instead of its' own. We would, of course, need a separate faction promotion for each ideology.

I hadn't thought about ideology promotions for units. What would the ideological promotions do? Things like better offense for Believers, reduced maintenance costs for Hive-ers?
 
Do you mean removing ideologies from your own cities, or opponents' cities?

From your own cities. I agree that removing ideologies from someone else's city doesn't seem appropriate.

I hadn't thought about ideology promotions for units. What would the ideological promotions do? Things like better offense for Believers, reduced maintenance costs for Hive-ers?

My idea would be for it to replace the current faction promotion given to units, the spartans for example.
 
Not sure whether I'd like this idea, for various reasons:

1) The mod is pretty mature, introducing such a big change could mess up a lot of things.
2) The religion system is already used - and the conflict between Edenism and VoP is pretty important to polarise factions for the underlying eco-theme of the mod (pro- or contra-Planet choice) that was part of SMAC as well.
3) It's redundant with the fact that each faction is an ideology already - and the spread/influence is pretty much what the culture/influence system is (it can even take over other bases) - if anything, the versatility of the culture system should be upped a bit to reflect that it's the "influence" of an ideology.
4) The social engineering bit: Citizens demanding things? Can I say the annoying senate from Civ II? Pretty much unfun. Furthermore, going against your own ideology with your choices already carries a penalty - you lose synergy with your traits and start being suboptimal.
5) It doesn't fit the religion system: The religion system has - in game terms - two functions: Influencing diplomacy (this bit wouldn't work very well if every faction had its own ideology) and providing minor extra benefits for cities (which is realised by your traits).
6) Can you imagine Miriam switching to Gaianism? Lal to Spartanism? Zakharov to Morganism? Any leader to any other ideology than his own? Not really, meaning they're pretty much locked - what's the point of the system, if each leader will only use his/her own religion? Then the only point of the system becomes the benefits (which is identical with your traits) and exterminating foreign ideologies (which is just playing whack-a-mole with "inquisitors").

Cheers, LT.
 
Not sure whether I'd like this idea, for various reasons:

Those points make sense, and I'm inclined to agree with your idea for simply upgrading the culture/influence system to better reflect the fact that it represents ideology. What would you suggest along these lines, though?

For my part, the reason I proposed that ideological conflict be represented with the religion system was so that it could be used more actively and offensively, unlike its mainly defensive role in regular Civ 4. Perhaps players could actively "seed" their influence in rival bases, or influence could be spread through player-controlled economic links between bases?
 
Those points make sense, and I'm inclined to agree with your idea for simply upgrading the culture/influence system to better reflect the fact that it represents ideology. What would you suggest along these lines, though?
I like the fact that the influence (note: from now on, when I say 'influence', I mean the vanilla culture mechanic) slider comes rather late in the game, this makes expansion and influence-spreading in the early game harder - which is fitting. On the other hand, it may be a little bit too late and sits on a tech which is slightly disconnected from it, so there is some potential.

It would be interesting to get trade routes/open borders involved into the influence system, something like +1 influence in a base per two trade routes - this would actively reward the more peaceful groups for keeping peace and open borders.

More secret projects (aka wonders) would also help with expanding the effect of influence and give you more means to shape your GP - which goes to the next point:

A possible idea is giving +1 influence per GP, it would reflect the lasting effect a big proponent of your ideology can have and make it more interesting to settle GPs in border cities instead of settling them in your main cities or light-bulbing them.

Attaching minor influence slider effects to a couple of buildings would be nice as well, especially if it would do something else than adding happiness (like in vanilla Civ4).

The "holy grail" would be merging in IDW (Influence Driven War), because then military can affect influence, but in reverse, influence becomes a big military factor as well, making it more than "just another" stat measuring your expansion/territory size.

Finally, I think it could be viable to add another value civic - pacifism/harmony or something along that vein - and make that a civic adding influence spread and perhaps enemy unhappiness (a bit like free speech). This could make influence strategies/wins more viable and interesting and I always thought that the SMAC value selection power-knowledge-wealth wasn't really broad enough - it's impossible to place value on something like humanity, happinessm community or something like that, which would be rather fitting for several factions (Peacekeepers, Gaians, Believers, Free Drones).

The problem, however is (apart from the fact that these ideas above are more of a brainstorm mess of ideas) avoiding overcrowding/overcomplicating things, keeping the low influence output in the early game (to get the "slow expansion on a hostile planet"-feel) and finally: Influence is already "used" as it is already tied into the military buildings (representing military influence/defence capability) and into the planet value (sort of representing the Psi-effect of going Planet/Hybrid). All in all, that's a rather precarious balance of gameplay effects and various flavour concepts - throwing in the idea of "Psych" or "Ideology" may muddle things.
Perhaps players could actively "seed" their influence in rival bases, or influence could be spread through player-controlled economic links between bases?
You can already spread influence with probe teams (and spies in vanilla Civ4).

Cheers, LT.
 
The "holy grail" would be merging in IDW (Influence Driven War), because then military can affect influence, but in reverse, influence becomes a big military factor as well, making it more than "just another" stat measuring your expansion/territory size.

A while ago I played 250 turns of a mod which included Influence Driven War. It's an interesting concept, but in that short play I discovered two issues with it:

1) I (Khmer) was culture-fighting over some plots with a close neighbour (China). Then suddenly some other guy (Viking) did a naval invasion on one of my coastal cities. He didn't succeed in capturing my city, but some 15% of my culture did suddenly become Viking. As a consequence China was able to gain control of some of my plots. I found it rather stupid that China was able to profit in this way from the Khmer-Viking conflict.

2) When losing a combat inside your territory, you lose more culture than you gain from winning a combat inside your territory. This has as a consequence that when you succesfully defeat an invading stack, and even take less losses than your opponent, you can still end up losing plots to your opponent, as he has stolen more culture in the end.
 
Back
Top Bottom