religious victory- always aggressive? if not, how?

[ShakaKhan]

So I've found a sure-fire way to a religious victory-
1.) Found a religion and defend it in at least one city.
2.) beat up and eliminate all or most of the civs that found a religion.
3.) Focus on producing mass amounts of faith.
4.) Spread your religion to more than 1/2 the cities of the remaining players unopposed.

But I'm wondering if, at higher difficulty levels, people are still able to win a religious victory without wiping out the other civs who found a religion, and if so, how they go about using their spreads. I tend to try to get four prerequisite situations to occur for maximum spread efficiency:
1.)Yerevan suzerein (the right promotions make each spread significantly more efficient)
2.)Mosques (extra spreads)
3.)Hagia Sophia (extra spreads)
4.)Holy Order (more efficient apostle purchases, which are the primary spread unit to other civilizations)

In doing so, there's the question of whether or not you purchase religious units before achieving these four faith:spread efficiency bonuses, and if so, how many? I used to purchase a couple of missionaries to convert my own cities first so they can reap the rewards of the other religious beliefs, but find that these spreads, while effective at the time of purchase, are ultimately zero-gain as the AI convert my cities before I can get the maximum efficiency apostles online at deity level. So then I try defending the religion in a single city (the holy city) until I can make maximum efficiency apostles, stockpiling large amounts of faith along the way, but find that at that point, it's just sooooo tedious because of the combination of 1.) most of my own cities have been converted and there's a lot of conversion that has to be done- enough that I'd rather just rage-quit and start over, and 2.) I'm so outnumbered at this point that it seems I'd have to go through dozens and dozens of turns of successful theological combat before I can even begin to start converting, and of course the deity AI gets hefty bonuses so by the time I eliminate 20 of their religious units, they've bought 10 more.

So I guess the questions I'm getting at is- 1.) do you bother with peaceful religious victory or just conclude that aggressive religious victory is considerably more effective, and 2.) if you do attempt a peaceful religious victory, do you spread as soon as you can or try to keep the costs down while you get the milestone efficiency bonuses (yerevan, mosque, holy order, and HS)?

 

[MaryKB]

I've only won a single Deity game, I won by Religion using Russia. I tried getting just as much Faith as I can, I founded lots of cities near tundra, and I was really producing so very much. I'd save up my faith so I could buy like ten or twelve Apostles (oh yes I use Holy Order) and I go after one civilization and try to eliminate his or her religion very quickly and completely, then they start spreading mine too. I try to make Friendship or Alliance with them first so they don't get so upset with my destroying their religion, and seem to get over it quickly enough. Deity just isn't my thing really, I feel it's too intense, so I haven't played after that one. That's also my only game going for religious victory, I just wanted to see what it's like. I forget which wonder it is, but there's one that lets you pick any Apostle promotion, and I feel that's so very, very useful because of your promotions that eliminate other religions and are triple strength in your rival's cities, using those combined lets me wipe out religions very quickly.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I've never conquered another civ when winning religious games. I just spread my religion to all of them.

The process I follow is based on winning religious combats. I create a wolfpack of 3 to 4 Apostles, hopefully including at least 1 or 2 Debaters. One of your neighbours is likely trying to spread their religion to you, so you start on that border, destroying their Missionaries/Apostles as they enter your territory. You heal quickly as you're beside your home Holy Sites, and the impact of the losses will flip their border cities.

Then you move into their territory. At this stage you'll need to invest in a few Gurus, to follow along and heal your Apostles. Find, surround and kill any religious units of theirs you find, then surround their closest Holy Site and pick them off one at a time as they create new defenders. Every time they lose a unit their religion is weakened and yours is strengthened in all nearby cities. The more Faith they generate, the more defenders they'll create, and the quicker you'll convert them (turns out it's easier to convert the faithful to a new religion than it is to convert the faithless!). A couple of Missionaries can speed up the process by finishing off cities that have almost but not quite been converted by the religious combats.

The slowest civs to convert are the ones who didn't create a religion of their own, as they won't fight you. That's where your Proselytizers and Translators can go.

You don't need any particular wonders. You don't even need to generate that much faith, as a single small group of Apostles will convert most of the world (of course, two or three wolfpacks gets the job done even faster). My preferred belief is the one that lets religious units ignore terrain costs. It speeds up the attack and makes it easier for your wolfpack to chase down, surround, and kill defenders. I also beeline Theocracy and run the Policy Card that gives a bonus to religious combat.

 

[WillowBrook]

What @Trav'ling Canuck said. My two cents:

I have not tried a religious victory on deity, but the golden age dedication exodus of the evangelists has taken the tedium out of a religious victory for me, with the extra movement and spreads.

I've done it at emperor on a large map without capturing any cities and without Yerevan - a proselytizer with 6 or 7 spreads does a lot of damage. Pay attention to the actual pressure numbers to determine where it's needed most (a mod that shows the numbers when you hover over the religion symbol on the city banner saves many clicks). A mix of other apostle promotions (especially translators and debaters) are fine for the rest of your pack of apostles. I would sometimes follow with cheaper missionaries where just a little more of my religion was needed to convert a city

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I used to purchase a couple of missionaries to convert my own cities first so they can reap the rewards of the other religious beliefs, but find that these spreads, while effective at the time of purchase, are ultimately zero-gain as the AI convert my cities before I can get the maximum efficiency apostles online at deity level. So then I try defending the religion in a single city (the holy city) until I can make maximum efficiency apostles, stockpiling large amounts of faith along the way, but find that at that point, it's just sooooo tedious because of the combination of 1.) most of my own cities have been converted and there's a lot of conversion that has to be done- enough that I'd rather just rage-quit and start over, and 2.) I'm so outnumbered at this point that it seems I'd have to go through dozens and dozens of turns of successful theological combat before I can even begin to start converting, and of course the deity AI gets hefty bonuses so by the time I eliminate 20 of their religious units, they've bought 10 more.

So I guess the questions I'm getting at is- 1.) do you bother with peaceful religious victory or just conclude that aggressive religious victory is considerably more effective, and 2.) if you do attempt a peaceful religious victory, do you spread as soon as you can or try to keep the costs down while you get the milestone efficiency bonuses (yerevan, mosque, holy order, and HS)?

It sounds like you should recruit the Great Prophet, then park him in a district and wait to complete the "Big 4" efficiencies detailed above. If you are hunkered down in one city you will not be getting much of a boost from your religion anyway, so why found it? Once you have the efficiencies you mention (as well as a bunch of Holy Sites) you can activate the Great Prophet. I usually wait to initiate the GP activation protocol as it converts all cities with a Holy Site, and as I usually war with the AI, and the AI is fond of building Holy Sites, I find this the most efficient way to convert cities as well as avoid my religion from being extinguished.

As to the best way to achieve a religious victory? Surely the answer is Inquisitors.

 

[Abaxial]

I call my group of apostles "The Debating Club".

 

[ShakaKhan]

Thanks for all the input guys. @BarbarianHunter I've considered this, and also noted that your cities that have a holy site automatically convert when you found, so this could further save you some missionaries (or even more expensive apostles if you're converted first.) However, I usually opt against this method as I'm afraid my favored beliefs will be gone.

I've never conquered another civ when winning religious games. I just spread my religion to all of them.

The process I follow is based on winning religious combats. I create a wolfpack of 3 to 4 Apostles, hopefully including at least 1 or 2 Debaters. One of your neighbours is likely trying to spread their religion to you, so you start on that border, destroying their Missionaries/Apostles as they enter your territory. You heal quickly as you're beside your home Holy Sites, and the impact of the losses will flip their border cities.

Then you move into their territory. At this stage you'll need to invest in a few Gurus, to follow along and heal your Apostles. Find, surround and kill any religious units of theirs you find, then surround their closest Holy Site and pick them off one at a time as they create new defenders. Every time they lose a unit their religion is weakened and yours is strengthened in all nearby cities. The more Faith they generate, the more defenders they'll create, and the quicker you'll convert them (turns out it's easier to convert the faithful to a new religion than it is to convert the faithless!). A couple of Missionaries can speed up the process by finishing off cities that have almost but not quite been converted by the religious combats.

The slowest civs to convert are the ones who didn't create a religion of their own, as they won't fight you. That's where your Proselytizers and Translators can go.

You don't need any particular wonders. You don't even need to generate that much faith, as a single small group of Apostles will convert most of the world (of course, two or three wolfpacks gets the job done even faster). My preferred belief is the one that lets religious units ignore terrain costs. It speeds up the attack and makes it easier for your wolfpack to chase down, surround, and kill defenders. I also beeline Theocracy and run the Policy Card that gives a bonus to religious combat.

This is very interesting- conversion through successful theological combat instead of using your spreads. However, and with all due respect, can this be verified? I was under the impression that a defeated religious unit will lower that religion's presence in nearby cities but not raise the influence of the victorious religious unit. Is this so?

Also, newbie religion question - is a religious unit's combat strength affected by how many spreads he/she has left? i.e. does an apostle with 3 spreads remaining have a higher "theological combat strength" than one with 1 spread remaining?

 

[AlannaT]

This is very interesting- conversion through successful theological combat instead of using your spreads. However, and with all due respect, can this be verified? I was under the impression that a defeated religious unit will lower that religion's presence in nearby cities but not raise the influence of the victorious religious unit. Is this so?

No. It is exactly as Trav'ling Canuck described it. If an apostle of religion A kills an apostle of religion B, all nearby cities are affected by + religion A and - religion B. So instead of affecting one city with a spread you can affect 4-6 cities with a religious win in the right location - way more efficient and one of the reasons Debater is such a good promotion. What you are thinking of is most likely religious units getting killed by military ("Remove heretic" or how it's called) - in that case it's only an religious influence loss.

is a religious unit's combat strength affected by how many spreads he/she has left?

No, religious combat strength stays the same regardless of number of spreads. But being injured lowers both the combat strength and the strength of spreads.

 

[WillowBrook]

Thanks for all the input guys. @BarbarianHunter I've considered this, and also noted that your cities that have a holy site automatically convert when you found, so this could further save you some missionaries (or even more expensive apostles if you're converted first.) However, I usually opt against this method as I'm afraid my favored beliefs will be gone.

This is very interesting- conversion through successful theological combat instead of using your spreads. However, and with all due respect, can this be verified? I was under the impression that a defeated religious unit will lower that religion's presence in nearby cities but not raise the influence of the victorious religious unit. Is this so?

Also, newbie religion question - is a religious unit's combat strength affected by how many spreads he/she has left? i.e. does an apostle with 3 spreads remaining have a higher "theological combat strength" than one with 1 spread remaining?

A victorious religious unit adds religious pressure. If you kill a religious unit with a military unit, you don't get the positive pressure for your religion.

The strength of a religious unit is not affected by the number of spreads left. Religious combat is very much like military combat, with damaged units having decreased health. You don't get combat experience or additional promotions, though. You need to be by one of your holy sites to heal, or use a guru.

I'm not certain, but I think that I have observed that the strength of a unit's spread is less when it is damaged, but test that for yourself.

Edit: cross-post.