Reloading

[Forthoffer]

Matrix said, "You have the assurance the top players don't cheat ever but win on their own strength."

Sorry, Matrix, but you lack the information to assure anyone of that, even for reloading.

You would need to

a) for a particular game, watch over their shoulder and see they didn't, or

b) for a particular game, have them save the game after every move, then you or a program analyze all the .sav files to assess the likelihood of reloading, or

c) have seen them in real life where they repeatedly had chances to cheat in circumstances they believed no one could find out, but didn't cheat.

I doubt that you have this information for anyone, except perhaps real life neighbors.

You can certainly trust and believe that top players don't reload, but you lack the information to assure anyone that they don't cheat/reload.

Or am I missing something? Is there other information available that can provide information showing that top players don't cheat?

 

[Matrix]

Things that SirPleb does here, things he posts and most importantly: things we say when we PM or email gives me that assurance.

I've once asked Aeson to be absolutely honest whether he hasn't cheated in GOTM02 and he gave me an answer that convinced me.

Of course I don't have hard evidence, but that's also not the point. The point is no one should cheat.

 

[BCLG100]

and it is not like it is meant to be a fierce competition its just a freindley thing so why would anyone cheat

 

[Lucky]

Indeed, and starting an argument about the WORDS used in the desciptions is definitely not adding to the fun.

On, another note, since the forum is back, I hope Matrix is finished with the results really soon. I still need to decide whether to start this months GOTM.

 

[Matrix]

Why won't you start if you don't the results yet?

(Yes, this is off-topic, but I'm mod and I allow it. )

 

[Lucky]

Because I´m rather busy with my 6+1 exams this summer, 4 in July and 3 in September. So I will most likely play only an early finish game anyway, but I have to decide how much time and energy to invest in it.
And that depends on how good or bad I scored last time.

 

[Forthoffer]

Matrix said, "Of course I don't have hard evidence..."

You haven't shown any evidence.

Matrix said, "but that's also not the point. The point is no one should cheat."

Yes, no one should cheat.

People also should not pronounce critical "facts" unless they are willing and able to produce evidences supporting their "facts".

Would you like me to write a program that monitors GOTM play, to give reassurance that people don't cheat in GOTM?

It might be interesting to see if the "top players" remain "top players" when monitored.

 

[Sullla]

Originally posted by Forthoffer
Would you like me to write a program that monitors GOTM play, to give reassurance that people don't cheat in GOTM?

It might be interesting to see if the "top players" remain "top players" when monitored.

Go right ahead and knock yourself out with that Forthoffer. But don't expect the results to change at all. The same people tend to win each game because... they really are the best at Civ3! I doubt that any of the top players are cheating, they just happen to know exactly what they're doing. If you have already finished GOTM9 or are not playing in it (like me) look at some of the discussions in the spoilers thread between several players. It's pretty clear that they know what they're doing, not cheating somehow to increase their score.

I've documented out my last 5 competition games on my website with lots of pictures and such. If you look at the GOTM8 report, I think it's pretty clear there was no cheating going on, just good strategy and efficient use of force. Why would anyone want to cheat anyway? This is just a friendly competition to compare notes and swap stories; it loses all meaning if not played honestly.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or insult Forthoffer, but there isn't any rampant cheating going on here. We can't know absolutely 100% for sure, granted, but there has to be trust somewhere in this process. And when others do better than me, I'm confident that it is due to the fact that they played a better game, not because they were in violation of the rules.

 

[Matrix]

You're not the first to question the top players, Forthoffer. But that's just because they're so good, it is just hard to believe. At least, not without a clarification from them.

 

[cycle]

Sulla,

Just to add my 2 cents to this interesting thread,

I don't doubt your ability or the one from any of the top ranked players, but having a (very nice btw) web site with screen shoots doesn't prove that you didn't cheat (i.e. reload) during the game in order to achieve that (impressive) performance in your game. Of course you explain the general strategy you used but it doesn't really prove anything (as far as cheating goes)

I do agree that some level of trust has to be achieved between all players for this 'contest' to have any value.

Which brings me to the whole milking issue. I think it would be WAY more interesting to have two rankings : one for players who milk, and one for players who don't milk. Or at least a column that indicates if you milk or not during the game. We would see who milks and what kind of score they achieve.

I don't have the time to milk. And personnaly, I don't see the point. Is it suppose to be fun to micromanage the game for 200 turns and to make it last all the way to 2050 ? It is obvious that the top 5 players milk for quite some time in order to achieve those scores. It is also obvious that they also use "border line" strategy to achieve them. There has been a few posts on this subject and I won't reintroduce them at length in this topic. An example of one of them: send 1 worker from 100 different city to the same city every turn. It only loses 1 population and gives you the advantage to generate 149 specialist every turn. Losts of point with this.

One could argue that everyone can use those strategy. I say to them : why should I? it doesn't make the game more fun. And as I said, I don't have that kind of free time on my hands. Sure, I won't be as competitive (in score) as the top players but I still think I'm a decent player as far as gameplay is concerned.

By the way, this is my first GOTM so I am not in the ranking yet

Until "play the world" comes out, we have to rely on the gotm feature to compare our performance. And so far, I love it. The idea of playing on the same map as other players and sharing our experience is great. But as far as comparing our civ score, I'm not conviced that this is a reliable way to judge our skills.

I give more credit to a player that will share his toughest moment in a game and explain how he managed to get out of it. That's clearly shows good strategy.

Happy civ-ing !

 

[Bamspeedy]

Which brings me to the whole milking issue. I think it would be WAY more interesting to have two rankings : one for players who milk, and one for players who don't milk. Or at least a column that indicates if you milk or not during the game. We would see who milks and what kind of score they achieve.

This is already simple to determine by looking at what date they finish. All 2050 A.D. finishes (or very close to that date) are milked. Except for some of the lower scores, usually, that actually did need all that time to win.

It is also obvious that they also use "border line" strategy to achieve them. There has been a few posts on this subject and I won't reintroduce them at length in this topic. An example of one of them: send 1 worker from 100 different city to the same city every turn. It only loses 1 population and gives you the advantage to generate 149 specialist every turn. Losts of point with this.

The worker dog-piling is already banned starting with GOTM 9. Scout Resource denial has also been banned. I'm sure that there are other tactics used that some may define as an exploit, but most have been allowed (ROP abuse). Most of the high scorers get their score by getting to the domination limit very early (1000 A.D. or sooner, depending on map and difficulty level) and milking the rest of the game. So they were very skillful in getting to the domination limit so quickly. So milking certainly did not get them all of those points.

 

[cracker]

My radical theory is that if you gave a simple written test to all the players, that you would find all the top players would score well in areas that relate to algorithms, differential equations, matrix algebra, and coefficients. (this doesn't mean all the good players are mathmaticians it just means that the aptitudes and skills are common.)

There is another whole group of players who are concerned with hairstyles on the leader graphics or the color of toenail polish on Libby's big toe. These players will never do as well in the game even if they are given a prescribed build plan and a copy of the full resource map.

There are semi-random elements that effect the outcome of the game at almost every encounter between two forces. 100 turns into the game, no two people are playing the same game even if they follow the same strategies because the cumulative outcome of the random events changes everything. In GOTM9, I was crushing the world at a speed unmatched by man or beast and then I lost a sequence of 6 galleys while trying to sink one lone japanese galley that contain the last living member of their society. This random setback was really disruptive and I don't think (at least hopefully) it occurred in any other game. The bad luck was somewhat offset by having two galleys survive sleepovers while hearing "Cap'n thar be whales here".

There are a number of very high skill exploits that dominate gameplay when you look at score and early finish statistics and executing these exploits well is what the top players do. Exploit here is just meant to imply an executable sequence of tasks that will give you the human an advantage that can be accumulated into a winning strategy over time.

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by cracker
My radical theory is that if you gave a simple written test to all the players, that you would find all the top players would score well in areas that relate to algorithms, differential equations, matrix algebra, and coefficients.

I just wrote my maths exam yesterday and I must confess, I really like it and have probably done very well. Main topic were differential equations, and solving those is rather a fun part of math.

There may be some truth in your statement, especially if you look at the top players for Civ2, especially Starlifter. He more or less disassembled the whole game into its mathematical components and know exactly what one must do every turn to maximize success.

But for Civ3, there may be the better understanding of underlying basic laws of the game for mathemtical "enabled" people, but the game is still far from being fully understood. A thing that has to do with the changed programming style, even the Firaxis programmers probably don´t know all mathematical backgrounds behind every action.

 

[ainwood]

One (slightly) different point: There are complaints about the "top" players cheating. What about the bottom players cheating? I am convinced that not everyone plays "by the rules", and therefore reloads occasionally (for example). However, there are two points on this:

1.) The rules state "no cheating". This probably reduces cheating from "wholesale" to "occasional".

2.) If you actually play enough games where you don't cheat you will find that the key to a good score is strategy. The odd "poor" result due to a random event will be massively outweighed by the strategies you use.

Obviously this doesn't apply when you get to the point where you reload every time something "bad" happens. However, a good strategy will reduce the number of times "bad" events happen anyway.

If you don't get good scores in the GOTM, and if you're still not convinced that the best players play "fair", then try this: Get a new GOTM and cheat. Cheat like heck until you win (of course, you can't submit it). When the results are posted, I'm sure you'll still find that the "top" players beat you.

 

[Creepster]

Here is my two cents,

I honestly believe that the top players don't cheat. In all fairness to them you don't consistently come out on top by cheating. The higher scores are obtained by a careful strategy and a complete understanding of the game. (There is a lot to be said for crackers theory above, I believe that the better players do understand the AI's thinking(formulaes)) This is demonstrated by their constant input in the forums and exploration of new ideas and ways to win.

Look at CartouchBees win last month. He won by exploiting the game. He then shared that exploit and it was agreed to ban it in all future competitions. In order to win He knew what it took to get a high score and how to beat the other AI's early enough in the game. Most of the top players have the game won by 10 to 500 AD at the latest on every level including Diety. In some games it is probably won by 1500BC. The rest of the game is a wrap up phase and determining how you want to win. I don't consider myself in the top (yet) but for a comparison I have the current GOTM essentially won and it is only about 150AD. Yes there are still AI's out there I have not met (which is why I have note read the GOTM 9 spoiler yet) but it is a forgone conclusion that I will be able to over power them. I know this based on experience with the game and how many cities I currently have (about ( I have not counted them) 40 and growing fast).

There probalbly are people who do cheat out there, but I don't think that the top players do. They have no reason to do so. Besides it is a friendly game, and how can you honestly feel right if you win by reloading. The fun is in the HONEST COMPETITION between all of us.

 

[Forthoffer]

Just to clarify: I never said the top players were cheating. I was just pointing out that we have no evidence one way or another (not counting hearsay as evidence). I'm sure the top players are very good, and have no need to reload, but I still don't have convincing assurance that they've never reloaded GOTM games.

Also to clarify: I myself am certainly not a top Civ3 player. I still have great difficulty even winning at Diety level, though the other levels are pretty easy.

I've been playing GOTMs with reloading, but I don't regard that as cheating because I haven't been submitting them to the GOTM competition. Any game I do submit won't have been reloaded, and I'll have save files around in case anyone wants to check (if anyone would care).

 

[Forthoffer]

Sulla said, "Take a look at my Civ3 page!
There Sulla said, "I'm not sure why these pictures are coming out fuzzed either; they are perfectly clear before they get loaded onto the geocities server. "

These pictures are coming out fuzzed because they are height=768 width=1024, but your HTML page describes them as height=675 width=900, so the browser is resampling the image as it displays it, fuzzing it up.

If you change the HTML to match the image, or omit the HTML's height and width, they should come out clear.

 

[Sullla]

Originally posted by Forthoffer
These pictures are coming out fuzzed because they are height=768 width=1024, but your HTML page describes them as height=675 width=900, so the browser is resampling the image as it displays it, fuzzing it up.

If you change the HTML to match the image, or omit the HTML's height and width, they should come out clear.

Thanks for the message, but I have since also realized what I was doing wrong and fixed it. My geocities pages were not done using html (which explains my comments), but I have since begun learning the basics required for small pages. All of my newer stuff is being written in html and hosted at kalikokottage.com where I don't have to deal with data transfer messages (hooray!) So thanks for the message, but I have taken steps to avoid this myself.

 

[Cruise]

The Multiplayer addition will reveal the cheaters, as for now i doubt that many top players cheat, simply because it makes you a lousy and dumb player; you won't learn from your mistakes.

 

[Forthoffer]

I agree that reloading just to get a better random number won't help you learn from your mistakes.

But you can learn from your mistakes by reloading back a number of moves when you've realized you've made a strategic mistake such as trying to build the wrong Wonder, or miscalculated your city growth rate so you built the wrong improvement.