"Remove your forces of declare war!" - Um, why?

[Quandary]

By the time I noticed that they were moving forces through my territory it was already too late to block them off (and there's really no reason for them to go through my land since they're neighbors).

Anyway, I end up with units preventing me from improving land around a couple of my cities.

All I want to do is tell them to move.

All I can do is tell them "Remove...or declare war".

Uh, I don't want them to declare war. I think I'm on the verge of a diplomatic win, so I don't even want to be overly firm about it.

I want that stealing chickens and rooting through garbage line!

I want to say "You're in my way, care to move your people please?".

I want to say "Unit 000133 is blocking land I want to improve, can he move one square south to heal up?"

I don't want to say "declare war!", especially when I'm building the UN.

Of course I had to try it.

France stayed "polite" but I got that "what are you hiding" line. England declared war (which would be absolute suicide for them even if they weren't fighting France already).

I know that game plans often don't work out, but this just seems dumb to me. Always has, but more so now that my relations with the soon to be voting Civs is quite important to me.

 

[sealman]

there have always been glaring holes in the diplomacy aspect of this game.

 

[Alexnm]

I understand your pain, but maybe the designers thought that everyone would consider foreign troops in their territory as a casus belli.

 

[farting bob]

i dont think that demanding they leave actually afefcts your rep enough to make a difference ina diplomacy victory, so save the same, then tell them to leave, any on e declares war on you jsut absorb th pressure, and don tpu ta single unit into there territory, if you build then UN first then your prety much assured.

 

[Quandary]

I can see your point, Alexnm, but I don't remember ever having the AI say "remove or declare war" to me.

They've said "could constitute an act of war" and such, but not that bald faced either or option.

@Sealman: Yep

Bob:

i dont think that demanding they leave actually afefcts your rep enough to make a difference ina diplomacy victory, so save the same, then tell them to leave,

Tried that and England did declare war. There are only four civs left including mine, and Russia is at peace, and trading, with everyone and is second in land. That worries me.

England declaring war struck me as funny in other circumstances. They have the weakest army, mine is strongest, and they're fighting the second strongest army (France) already. (sigh)

 

[Renata]

You've never gotten 'remove or declare war from the AI?' Really? I used to get it all the time before I understood the niceties of what is and is not a sneak-attack. I'd move a stack of units next to an enemy city (in their territory), get the 'move or declare war' demand, and I'd say, in effect, 'I'll take war, thank you very much', and so forth.

I don't get the message so much any more now that I'm a little more honorable about most of my war declarations, but occasionally a scouting unit will still provoke it. (Especially those warriors who take what was meant to a be a one-turn stroll through enemy territory --- then the borders expand.)

Renata

 

[platty]

Would they agree to an ROP? It doesn't sound like that would be a problem for you strategically. Quick question, though: I can't check right now but do foreign units present with an ROP still prevent you from working the square their on? I thought you could still use that square when you had signed an ROP.

 

[Quandary]

@Renata: I don't remember seeing that from the AI. Some things that came close, and some very strongly worded demands for withdrawal, but so far no move or declare.

This is in vanilla 1.29, the only version I've ever played (bought GoTY for Christmas).

@Platty: Even with RoP you still can't move workers onto their unit occupied squares. And once you have one, you can't ask them to move at all anymore (if I remember right).

A real nightmare in the age of pollution... errr, the modern era.

 

[Renata]

I was playing vanilla Civ3 also until fairly recently. I actually don't remember the exact wording, whether or not it was 'move or declare war' or something similar. But the effect is the same - move 10 swordsmen into your neighbor's territory without an ROP in place and you get a message which requires you to leave ("your units will be moved automatically") if you wish to remain at peace - there is no third option.

Regarding ROPs in general, I tend to think a good fix would be to strengthen the penalty against ROP-rape both for AIs and for the human player. Maybe something along the lines of the effect of using nuclear weapons - half the civs in the world instantly declare war on you and all the rest are just looking for an excuse. As it is, it's too easy for the human player to wipe out an entire large civilization in one turn by using an ROP to station units next to every city prior to declaring war. (This is rightly considered exploitive by most, but that's no reason it shouldn't be changed!) It would also do away with the reason I rarely use ROPs myself despite their diplomatic benefit: when some AI civ *does* decide to sneak attack me, if they have an ROP they do a lot more damage than if they don't, since (especially after rails) they can reach a lot more cities that first turn.

As for just random ROP trespass that gets inconvenient -- better diplomacy might do the trick. Failing that, allowing units of ROP'd civs to share tiles might work.

Renata

 

[Quandary]

Renata:

you get a message which requires you to leave ("your units will be moved automatically") if you wish to remain at peace - there is no third option.

You're right. I totally forgot about that.

As for just random ROP trespass that gets inconvenient -- better diplomacy might do the trick. Failing that, allowing units of ROP'd civs to share tiles might work.

I'd go for that too, along with the basic idea Alexnm posted that troops wandering into your territory without RoP being an act of war... with some exceptions like exempting workers.

Certainly would make my current game easier.

 

[Jamesds]

I just hate it when the AI asks you to get out his territory. Some of the things you wished you could say to the AI, Quandrary, are just what I'd like! They just give you a nice polite excuse, and ignore you!!! :angry: Grr!!

 

[Zi-yu]

In every single one of my games, the minute I accidently move a worker into their territory, they ask me to leave. Meanwhile EVERY AI Civ sends troops through my territory all the time, even though I never sign ROP agreements. When I ask them to leave, they get mad it me. You can't win.

I have actually used extra workers (slaves) to form blockades in my territory just so the AI doesn't use my land as their highway.

 

[Renata]

@ Zi-yu: just ignore the first demand to move your worker (i.e. say you'll move but don't). The AI will be more annoyed than usual with you until the worker leaves, but you won't get another demand. Non-military units can stay as long as they like.

Renata

 

[Grille]

Originally posted by Renata
@ Zi-yu: just ignore the first demand to move your worker (i.e. say you'll move but don't). The AI will be more annoyed than usual with you until the worker leaves, but you won't get another demand. Non-military units can stay as long as they like.
Renata

Sure?
My shift-p and shift-a (yes, it's a pity ) workers try to cross enemy territory to get to a spot "on the other side" and I don't have a ROP. Not having any military units on their territory at the same time, they demand to remove my auto worker stack. The <our troops will move automatically> ( of course, I automated them... ) will show up, two turns later or if the workers move in frequently. Maybe the number of non-military units matters. A single one can stay longer (?).

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Renata
@ Zi-yu: just ignore the first demand to move your worker (i.e. say you'll move but don't). The AI will be more annoyed than usual with you until the worker leaves, but you won't get another demand. Non-military units can stay as long as they like.

This isn't entirely correct. Non-military units gets to stay up to 31 turns before being asked to leave, and gets to stay less turns if they are close (less than 3 squares IIRC) to a city. Now, 31 turns are normally more than enough, but if you try to block a resource with an explorer, you'll notice that you're forced to leave after maximum 31 turns.

 

[Darkness]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne

Now, 31 turns are normally more than enough, but if you try to block a resource with an explorer, you'll notice that you're forced to leave after maximum 31 turns.

I thought scout/explorer resource denial was considered an exploit?

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Darkness
I thought scout/explorer resource denial was considered an exploit?

Yes, it is. I only mentioned it as an example of where the 31-turn maximum matters.

 

[Alkar]

I always get war declared when clicking on the "Remove or declare war!", even when they are polite to me.

When appears "Remove" and when "Remove or declare war"? Is it a known factor involved, or is it random?

 

[Quandary]

Alkar: Just going from memory, I think the first time it's usually just "they Must be removed!". If you need to say it again, seemingly no matter how many turns later, it goes to "remove or declare".

It also seems that if you've ever told any civ to withdraw that counts as the first warning for all civs, then the only option is "..or declare war" for all of them.

I'm not sure but it might also be related to how long or how many times troops have been in your territory. As I type this, I can't remember bothering to tell any civ to remove troops during this game, and I know I saw "must be withdrawn" earlier during trade negotions.... um.... hmmm.

 

[DiamondzAndGunz]

I believe that wether you get "remove" or "remove or declare war" depends on both how long the troops have been there, and how many troops are there. If you've had a single troops in there for a turn, you will most likely get "remove"; however, if he's been there for several turns, you will get "remove or declare war." Likewise, if you have a stack of a dozen troops parked outside their city, you will most likely get "remove or declare war" on the first turn they are there.