Rep Hit when attacking 'unknown' civ?

[Aggie]

Originally posted by Catt


As long as you don't trade communications or allow them to make contact on their own, you should be fine (at least according to my test scenario . . . )

Thanks Catt. That also is the result I would expect...

 

[Catt]

* bump *

Anyone else further along in this mystery?

 

[Stapel]

Nope, my internet connection at home is mixed-up due to a....LINUX CRASH ?!?!?!

As soon a sthings work out again I'll try. I am not convinced yet.....

 

[Grille]

Can't use Catt's scenario.
But I second Catt's observations. Of course, only based on my humble experiences (no save here :rolleye: ) with ROP rapes.

The other way round, looking at ai rep hits: They don't actually seem to have problems with rep hits, but you get informed about some (which?) by your advisor.
Imagine A kills B (assuming here, they ROP raped or sth.; this is of course unknown, but as ai likes to rape...), but you don't know both of them. Of course, you get a message about B being killed by A, but will your advisor call him liar & cheat while having negotiations the first time? I've never payed attention to this, but maybe you guys have?

 

[Renata]

ack nevermind .. misread the question

Renata

 

[Grille]

Sorry for the "guy" thing
I hope that didn't force you to ack

 

[Catt]

* bump *

Killer, can you post your scenario if you still have it (and the details of the application and version) -- I'm still interested in trying to find a definitive answer - if it exists - to the question of the effectiveness of the Arrian Deception. It's one of the more interesting unknowns I've seen in Civ lately.

 

[ninti]

Pardon me for the bump of this year old thread, but I noticed it was really left hanging. Did anyone figure out for sure what the deal was with the "Arrian Deception" and whether it worked or not for sure. The FAQ still says it doesn't, but from what I can see in the thread, there is a lot of questions about it.

 

[Catt]

I've since used it many times and tested it too, and it works as advertised.

 

[binyo66]

I aggree with killer. Although on my cases, I made a mod in the beginning 4000bc as Egypt:
1. Instead of peace by default, All civs (except me) would attack every Iroq units by the time they have contact.
2. I'm the only one who has contact with all civs and have spies with them (so I can check that other civs are on war state with Iroq).
3. I have all techs necessary to sell contact. As you can see, you could sell Iroq to others under communication.
First turn, step by step on 4000bc
1. I checked Many civs are either cautious to me (Greek, and Iroq) or annoy (Germany, babylon and America)
2. I declared war on Iroq.
3. Then, I checked all civs become polite (except iroq).
So, IMO, they do know what is going on eventhough they havent met each others.
It brings another issue "turn-based" system. If they do know, they shouldnt known on our turn, but on their turn. Its especially important when selling tech. We should be able to sell "tech" to other civs with "the same price," not from the highest to the lowest. As you may know, after selling a tech to other civs, the tech price is getting cheaper even it's still in our turn!!
The attached file is 1.29f CivIII

 

[Ranos]

I have never broken treaties and then wiped out the civ before it made contact with others but I have something along those lines.

I was on a continent with six other civs. I was the Americans. I attacked the Japanese with troops in their borders (oops!!) and didn't pay any attention to that fact. The other civs on my continent would not sign RoPs with me anymore. I was the first to get Navigation and therefore meet the rest of the world first. For a few turns, I didn't trade any commmunications with anyone and made some really good deals with the civs on the other continents. When I finally did trade communications, everything went fine until it came time to renew the deals. The civs now new about my bad rap and decided that maybe RoPs weren't a good thing to have with me.

This tells me that a civ will not know of your bad rep until it has made contact with a civ that does know.

My conclusion is that if you were to wipe out all civs that know of your bad rep, the others would know nothing about it.

You can look at it along these lines too: If you are playing a game and see that little message pop up about a civ being wiped out, one which you've never met, you won't be able to see anything about how much culture or power they had or what their score was before they were wiped out. Not until the end of the game anyway.

EDIT: @ binyo66, I downloaded your scenario to see what exactly was going on in it, I wasn't sure exactly what you were talking about, but there is nothing in the zip file.

 

[binyo66]

Something wrong with the zip. try this zip. The point is, they do know what is going on between human with other civs (even they haven't met the civ yet). To prove it,
if u do step by step 1.29f
1. Check the attitude of other civs (F4)
2. Check if they are at war with Iroq.
3. Check if they HAVEnt met with Iroq (you could see that Egypt could sell contact to others)
4. Declare war to Iroq
5. Check the attitude of other civs again (F4), You can see that thay are polite now.

 

[Halcyon]

I can confirm that "killing all the witnesses" does work, having done so in my current emperor game. A breakout of war cut my trade route with Scandinavia, ruining my reputation with everyone on my continent. I had an empty army from an early war with the Ottomans, and a lot of freshly built knights, MDI and siege weapons, and my neighbour and biggest opponent France had most of her troops in distant India, so...

By the discovery of navigation I'd wiped out the lot of them. I've met the second continent, and they're behind me in tech, though Xerxes somehow had about 4000 gold. My gold now, thanks to having a monopoly on four luxuries - my reputation is spotless. Currently building galleons to put armies on.. ha.

 

[Catt]

@binyo66 - I haven't downloaded your zipped file but I'm confused by your test. How are other civs at war with Iroquois if they don't have contact?

I posted a test scenario last year in this thread. It would seem to confirm that the Arrian Deception works as advertised, and I've employed it in game numerous times without fail.

 

[binyo66]

I used a multitool to mod the game. If u download a file, u can see that egypt could sell Iroq contact to other civs. U can see also that other civs is on a state of war with Iroq, with exception egypt (It might be a bug on the way the program handle it, AFAIK, its been fixed on Conquest 1.0, but I havent truly test it). However, the point here is that AI knows whatever human player does.

 

[Ranos]

I didn't download the file but I can tell you what the problem is right now, you used a multitool to rig the game to get the results. Using anything like that in just about any game out there will give faulty results. I don't know what multitool you used but even though you can somehow still sell contact, the other civs have some form of contact with the Iroquois if they are at war. To get good results, you need to play the game naturally.

 

[binyo66]

Originally posted by Ranos
I didn't download the file but I can tell you what the problem is right now, you used a multitool to rig the game to get the results. Using anything like that in just about any game out there will give faulty results. I don't know what multitool you used but even though you can somehow still sell contact, the other civs have some form of contact with the Iroquois if they are at war. To get good results, you need to play the game naturally.

That's why I called a mod game, and it might be useful to test some theory (either u use Civ3edit or Whatever utilities u called), as long as the program except it (can load, and run without any problem until the end), it should be ok (u dont expect that all theories are pure manually, do u? Such as flipping calculator etc). I'm agree that unknown civs couldnt declare war each other. It should handle the way Conquest handle it. However, either its a bug on CivIII or not, its beyond the point. The point here is just to prove "the way the program" handles in this case (the algorithms, the logics, or whatevers they are), that AI knows it.
To make you satisfy, I would try "purely playing" with the following rules
1. Standard/large
2. 3 Civs (including me)
3. Chieftain (so, I make sure I got greatlight hout )
4. Archipelago.
5. Restart the game, until my start is on the beautiful beach
6. CivIII 1.29f
If I could MPP with one civ and declare war to other civ (expecting they havent met ofcourse, and wait to be attacked), the case is close. Otherwise, I would say that in pure games (no civedit or any utilities involves) u are right.

 

[Catt]

With the other civs at war with Iroquois they have some form of contact. (Note that you cannot even get a military alliance against a civ if your proposed partner doesn't know the civ). It sounds to me like, by using a multi-tool to create a state of war between civs with no contact with each other, you've created a situation that cannot ever happen in a game - in other words, I'm not sure what the test shows because the circumstances tested are never repeatable in a game.

The test I posted last year (PTW) is set up using the editor and you should be to use it to verify that the Arrian Deception works.

 

[Homie]

Maybe it matters if you wipe them out completely (razing all their cities) or just "wipe them out" by conquering cities, leaving citizens from the conquered civ still alive.

 

[binyo66]

Originally posted by Catt
With the other civs at war with Iroquois they have some form of contact. (Note that you cannot even get a military alliance against a civ if your proposed partner doesn't know the civ). It sounds to me like, by using a multi-tool to create a state of war between civs with no contact with each other, you've created a situation that cannot ever happen in a game - in other words, I'm not sure what the test shows because the circumstances tested are never repeatable in a game.

The test I posted last year (PTW) is set up using the editor and you should be to use it to verify that the Arrian Deception works.

1. Dont u think MA is applied if only embassy exist? Egypt doesnt have any embassy with others yet (it has spy for each civ ). However, when I mod this game, the purpose was to play something like Locked Alliances in Conquest. Since, Conquest already have it, to tell u the truth, I forget if I could MPP with a civ and declare war to Iroq. And btw, I am not saying Arrian deception doesnt work. I do believe it does. But this test solely is for testing a part of it, that is the civ knows if we are at war with other unknown civ (razing or not, using nuke etc, I havent had any clue, and I am just using Arrian theory, unless I found out differently, then I would put in the forum)
2. I am on the game with the setting
- Archipelago, Large
- Chieftain (gee, so far, I got all wonders)
- 3 Civs (Germany - me, Rome, and France). AI should not be scientific and Seafaring for this test (so I picked up Rome and France)
Here the story goes:
1st and 2nd test : failed. I found out that Roma were on the same island with France. 3rd test, since I didnt want to play all the way to middle ages just to find out they would be on the same island, so using a utility, I saved the game and revealed the map. Still, they were on the same big island. 4 Test, great, one was on the left (rome) and France on the right, and they were on different island. so reload the auto-save 4000bs.sav (which doesnt have a reveal map), and play time. So, so far:
1. I met Rome, and after exchanged 2 techs, He was 8-9 techs behinds, expecting France was the same (no embassy set yet).
2. I am in middle ages.
3. I got all wonders , and feudalism was 1 turn away (oh suntzu a prebuild palace is ready for u ).
4. Only one lux on my island .Well, its chieftain, so not to worry.
The 1st. goal :
1. Search as soon as possible for Nationalism.
2. MPP with one of the civs (probably with rome).
3. Find where France is.
4. Declare war with other.
5. Wait for the attack.
6. If Rome declared war to France, and I still could sell the contact. Then first case is closed, and then move on to 2nd goal. Otherwise, stop, and this theory wont valid anymore (and sorry to bother all of u with invalid test)
2nd goal was to :
1. after 20 turns of MPP, discontinued.
2. Peace with France (Check if roman is annoyed,and war condition with France, hopefully, otherwise make him annoyed)
3. Declare war to france
3. Check if roman is polite now.
4. End of testing for whatever result would be


Since, I dont have internet during weekend, I would tell you the result in the next 48Hrs. If someone want to test by himself, he could play from the latest sav that I attached
Here is the latest .sav files (and no any kind of utilities involves). Please note, it looks like my galley went to the wrong possition (it searched for lux, not for France )
Edi : Accelerated production is on, so IMO, more human advantages for chieftain. I was never make it on before though.