Reputation and Attitude?so much to learn about this game

[shinsei]

What is the exact difference between Reputation and Attitude?

Since i barely start playing this game few days ago,and found out about this great site,so i did a long digging for old threads:

I've recently browsed through some old threads which learned about the complicate hidden attributes of Reputation and Attitude,most people consider those were two different things and not to be mixed about,the question is what exactly the difference is?was Attitude suppose to be a property for a single Civ,while Reputation was something every Civ think about you?Correct me please!

After reading all these threads i got puzzled,suddenly realize that i can't continue my game before i got the question below solved:

About declaring war safely,someone mention about not having units inside enemy border while declaring,the question is,if i had no unit inside their border,can i declare war and enter their border in the same turn without reputation/attitude hit?

And while at war,what do you have to do to keep your rep/att safe?as far as i know is not to raze building if i had the choice,what else?any tips!

This whole Military Alliance/Mutal Protection Pact/Right Of Passage Threaties were un-understandable!For example how could they blame you for breaking trade-threaties because some barbarian Pillage the route.

For Military Alliance,after you eliminate a Civ, how could the huge Rep/Att hit be prevented?

For Mutal Protection Pact,after your ally get into war where you forced to declare war against that Civ,can you make peace threaty with that Civ without hit?

For Right Of Passage,anything to concern about before sign this?

For Peace Treaty,if i Declare war->Sign Peace Treaty->Declare war Again,will it hit my rep/att?

And how do you make these Threaty worked out efficiently?What are the facts that effect the rate of success for those deals?because sometime they just don't agree the Military Alliance no matter what i offer,even when they had polite or gracious,but something they would agree with nothing offered even when they had annoyed.

As far as i know that Razing Cities will get rep/att hit,anything else while at war?killing unit?slaving workers?pillaging?destroying ships?installing new goverment on conquered city?spies?nuke?anything!

By the way how do you make sure that conquered cities in not auto razed?

And for this whole Declare war,Razing Cities,Sign Peace,Trading,Embassy,Spy,Treaties,and other Diplomatic things,any tip,adivse,tricks,and things to concern about would be appreciated!

In my last game,everyone gets so mad at me just because i destroyed a single Civ,now when i recall,maybe i did so many things that will hurt my rep/att.for instance i raze too many cities(auto raze!),pillaging,signing treaties back and force.man,you just got to concern about so many things and think twice carefully before DOING ANYTHING,this game sure is a braincell killer.

I know this is probably alot of questions i asked,but simply because there is many thing i need to know,even reading all those thread,i still need to make sure certain things(because different peoples gives different answers and i'm not sure what is exactly correct),and need tips for things i missed.i'm just tired of restarting the over and over because something messed up and get jumped by more then 8 Civs at a same time.
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My Civ3 records:

Start playing this game 3 days ago,restarted more then 10 games.

1st:I simply didn't know what to do,i had my settler and worker wondering around and evetually killed by barbarian tribe.

2nd:I'm way behind in Technology because i didn't know i can pull the Science Bar!and not knowing that the more city you have the more science output you have and thous better the speed,i hadn't produce any settler and had only my defualt city standing for more then 3 millenium because i though more cities makes no difference on sicence research,and eventually outnumbered.

3rd:I didn't get the idea of resource in this game,i didn't know the use of colonies and never had road built,all my cities were disconnected,and no resource income,less commerce,evetually clapsed on enconomy.so i quitted.

4th:All my cities goes disorder for no apparent reasons,my goverment crushed,i restarted outta of frustration,later i learned that its something to do with crowd.

5th:I learn from my last game,so i keep on building settlers and workers to make it UNCROWD,later i found out none of my cities has higher class then Town other then my capital,and thats about 5 millenium before i realize that,got less science improvement,less troops,and other Civs bombard me with battleships and airplants,while all i had was some man with wooden sticks....so i restarted again

6th:I got out classed for mass Wonder Production............

7th:So i stop building Wonders,but then i found out my neighbor had Status of Zeus and Knights Templar built on the same continent,since i like to be warmongers(always hostile any unit i see),my neighbor hates me,so then i got outnumbered by mass Ancient Cavalry and Crusades.

8th:I try go for Statue of Zeus,but after the Tech researched i found out that there is no ivory on my continent!So i Sailed to some other continents,but by the time i discover ivory,Statue of Zeus was aready built by someone else.I had no choice but to go for Knights Templar.since i wasted all my time on naval(producing mass ship and naval tech just for the sake of ivory),by the time i got to Middle-Ages,someone aready had Knights Templar built....i restarted.

9th:This time i got the upperhand in the beginning,everything goes well,and i got Knights Templar very soon,and had a huged military with Monarch goverment,everything goes good,i'm always take the lead when the historian appear,i thought this time i would enjoy killing everyone,but everything changed after the fall of one Civ,suddenly,everyone Military Allianced against me!evetually i got outnumbered,and quitted.

10th:So then i learn about something has to do with rep/att hits,so this time i played smart,making my neighbor furious and declare war on me.i thought this time everyone would Sympath upon me,but after the one who declare war on me was eliminated,i still got jumped by more then 8 Civs.

11th:Now Playing!

 

[gmaharriet]

What is the exact difference between Reputation and Attitude?

Attitude is how friendly they sound...gracious, cautious, annoyed, etc. I generally ignore attitude completely unless I'm going for a diplo victory. Reputation is far more important, because it affects whether or not they will accept gpt/resources for trades. If your Rep is bad, they will not trust you and only trade with you for full gold payment in advance or for a tech. It makes the game much harder. And, yes, rep affects ALL civs, but attitude is individual civs.

About declaring war safely,someone mention about not having units inside enemy border while declaring,the question is,if i had no unit inside their border,can i declare war and enter their border in the same turn without reputation/attitude hit?

Declaring while inside their border will give you a Rep hit for the rest of the game. Attitude just doesn't matter much. Yes, you can attack in the same turn if you have 2-move units (like horses) which can reach their city in one turn from outside their border. Be sure you have no boats exploring in their territorial waters when you declare.

And while at war,what do you have to do to keep your rep/att safe?as far as i know is not to raze building if i had the choice,what else?any tips!

Razing affects only attitude and usually isn't worth worrying about.

how could they blame you for breaking trade-threaties because some barbarian Pillage the route.

It's just the way the game works.

For Military Alliance,after you eliminate a Civ, how could the huge Rep/Att hit be prevented?

Don't take the very last city until the 20-turn alliance has expired. Either wait or else let your ally take that last city.

For Mutal Protection Pact,after your ally get into war where you forced to declare war against that Civ,can you make peace threaty with that Civ without hit?

You cannot make a peace treaty until the 20-turn MPP has expired or your ally has made peace. After 20 turns, you can cancel the MPP.

For Right Of Passage,anything to concern about before sign this?

You are allowing another civ into your territory. If you have an undefended city, they may stab you in the back by attacking you. I almost NEVER sign ROPs.

For Peace Treaty,if i Declare war->Sign Peace Treaty->Declare war Again,will it hit my rep/att?

Don't worry so much about attitude. Your Rep will only be affected if you have included something else in the peace treaty, such as getting a city/tech/lux as a part of the peace treaty. It then becomes a 20-turn deal. If you have a straight up peace treaty with nothing else included, you can re-declare. I believe the diplo screen says something like "this treaty will last until war is redeclared".

sometime they just don't agree the Military Alliance no matter what i offer,even when they had polite or gracious,but something they would agree with nothing offered even when they had annoyed.

They may not agree to an MA because they are receiving a lux or resource or have some other agreement with the civ you want to ally against. And you MUST already be at war with the civ before you can bring in an ally against them. They may agree to an MA for free if they already wanted to go to war against the other civ anyway.

As far as i know that Razing Cities will get rep/att hit,anything else while at war?killing unit?slaving workers?pillaging?destroying ships?installing new goverment on conquered city?spies?nuke?anything!

Again, I just wouldn't worry about Attitudes unless you're going for a diplo victory. One note of caution though...If you nuke a civ, you are most likely to get nuked by every other civ who has nuke. That really gets ALL of them riled up!!!

By the way how do you make sure that conquered cities in not auto razed?

You have no control over that. A city will auto-raze if it has only pop 1 and no culture.

I'm going to stop here, because the rest of your questions are just too broad to know where to begin answering. You want all the answers to all the problems that could possibly come up in a game. Ask specific questions as you think of them so that we can give specific answers.

Good luck and happy civving!!!

 

[shinsei]

Thanks alot!That solve almost all my puzzling so far about diplomacy!i'm now playing a conquest game where i'll get revange on all these basterard

 

[Othniel]

Don't take the very last city until the 20-turn alliance has expired. Either wait or else let your ally take that last city.

Do you really get a rep/attitude hit for ending an MA by killing the enemy civ? That would be news to me... I understood it that if the MA ends because the common enemy is dead, however it was killed, all go home happy because there's no one left to fight and no rep hit is involved.

 

[Tribute]

I would think that there were no rep hit. I'm pretty sure I've ended a civ without a rep hit while under a military alliance. Possibly if you're trading resources or luxuries during the alliance, then this would happen. But gpt and gold (sometimes techs) are all I trade for alliances. Of course there ought to be an attitude hit since you're no longer at war against a common enemy and no longer have a running deal.

 

[shinsei]

What are all the things in the game that causes rep hit?any lists?

I have read the Attitude Thread by Bamspeedy,i wonder if there is any detailed information about Reputation.

 

[Othniel]

Here's the link to a War Academy article on trade rep written by Microbe.
--> http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/trading_reputation.php

Clicking on the link at the bottom to discuss the article in the forum will give a lot more explanations as well.

 

[rysingsun]

i still got jumped by more then 8 Civs.

learn to make alliances. you will usually have to pay for them but it's money well spent.

most of us don't recommend mutual protection pacts most of the time since they drag you into unwanted wars that ruin your reputation. after you get dragged into such a war it usually does no good to make peace since the turn after you do you will probably automatically declare war again making your rep even worse. very late in the game when rep doesn't matter much anymore an mpp may occasionally be useful.

 

[shinsei]

Here's the link to a War Academy article on trade rep written by Microbe.
--> http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/trading_reputation.php

Clicking on the link at the bottom to discuss the article in the forum will give a lot more explanations as well.

Thanks!

By the way I have questions about the thing in Bamspeedy's attitude article.

Permanent Attitude Changes

Note: Some of the attitude changes you do to a victim during war is hard to test, since it’s hard to find the difference between acts, because you can’t find the attitude level until the war is over with. And figuring the difference between what penalties are just from being at war, and what was caused by breaking treaties, razing cities, etc.

Most penalties are temporarily erased if the civ is at war with the civ who you broke a treaty with. Example: Say the Aztecs have added +10 points because of things I have done to the Iroquois. If the Aztecs go to war with the Iroquois, those 10 points are taken away, so the Aztecs will feel better towards me, but once they sign peace with the Iroquois the 10 point penalty is added back on. So penalties are only added for friendly civs, not enemies.

-2 If you have an embassy with the AI

+2 You demand tribute from the AI. Whether they actually pay the tribute or not. If they have a good attitude towards you, this will be +1, but once they are annoyed/furious it will be +2 each time you demand tribute. You can make 50 tributes in one turn and get a civ at +100 towards you (very, very furious).

+1 if you raze the city of another AI. +12 if you raze a city of that civ. Other civs don’t add any more penalties than the standard +1 if the city had contained any Great wonders. It doesn’t look like the victim adds more than the +12 permanent penalty either, but there may be a temporary penalty.

+4 if you’ve declared war on that civ before. If the AI had declared war on you, it is possible to get the attitude back to pre-war levels, providing you don’t raze any cities or other bad things.

+12 for breaking an alliance. +2 is what other civs will add.

No penalty for destroying the last city of an AI (unless you raze it, then just the +1 for a razed city). But the ‘temporary’ effects of doing damage to a common enemy, alliances, etc. will disappear since no one is at war with that civ anymore.

+1 You declare war on a friendly civ (all civs who are at peace with this civ will add on the point, others will add the point if they ever sign peace with this civ). The trick is to get others to declare war on you. Example: Aztecs were at -17 with me, I declare war on the Iroquois, so now I’m at -16 with the Aztecs. If I get the Aztecs into the war via an alliance I now am at -22 (-5 for the alliance, then recover the +1 point since I’m no longer at war with a civ that is friendly with the Aztecs). But after war, the +1 penalty is added back on.

+4 if you break a trade route (like pillaging your own road) that cancels a treaty. In addition to the -5 you lost since you are no longer trading resources, it will feel like +9. Other civs will add +1.

+1 If you sell them one of your workers (not sure why this is, maybe it’s confused and thinks you were at war at one point and thinks that is how it got your slave?). You restore the point if you buy the worker back.

+1 for each captured worker you disband (of their nationality). Think of it as disbanding = killing. Using the slaves, selling them, or joining them into cities, seems to have no effect.
Edit: If you starve citizens of their nationality (from joining slaves into cities, or starving a captured city), there is a penalty-don't know if this is permanent or not.

Breaking a ROP treaty:
+4 If you have no units in their territory when declaring war with a ROP treaty in place, other AI will add +1, but will still sign ROP with you. +6 If you have any units in their territory when you break the ROP treaty, and other civs won’t sign ROP with you anymore and will add +2.

+4 for breaking a peace treaty with that civ. +1 is what other civs will add on for breaking a peace treaty with another civ. These numbers are doubled if you figure in the fact that you are declaring war-(example: +4 for breaking the treaty +4 for declaring war).

Nukes: Victim of the nuke adds +32! Other civs will add on +16, regardless of whether they declared war on you or not. These penalties are permanent.

+1 for failing at an espionage mission (any mission or attempting to plant a spy). +3 is temporarily added, but the +1 is permanent from a limited test I did. Other civs don’t care, just the civ you tried to plant the spy in, or perform a mission in.

Are all these thing a rep.hit or att.hit?

 

[Othniel]

They are attitude hits.

Indirectly, a rep hit can result in an attitude hit. For instance, breaking a resource deal directly hurts your trade rep and indirectly hurts the AI attitude toward you. That's the +4 attitude hit Bamspeedy mentions for breaking a trade route.

It doesn't work in reverse, meaning an attitude hit won't result in an indirect trade rep hit.

 

[Tribute]

Reputation is just how much you've kept your word in deals. I.E. always let per turn deals complete. It's okay if the AI breaks their deals since they really don't care about their reputations. And it is okay if you break a deal where only the AI was giving something to you per turn and you were giving nothing back. Sometimes though, you are blamed for things you didn't really do. Like another civ's harbor being destroyed in a way that cuts off one of your active trade routes. I'm not too sure what being in someone else's territory before declaring war does; does it destroy your reputation? IIRC, it only prevents you from getting RoPs.

Oh, and once you break it, you lose your reputation forever, unless you manage to defeat all civilizations who knew the person you broke the deal with and all their contacts and contacts' contacts .... Take it this way. Make lux/resource deals with direct neighbors and those to whom you have direct harbor access. Unless you plan to make war for the rest of the game or never buy techs for gpt, you should keep your reputation golden. BTW, you can still make per turn for per turn deals as long as the AI does not have to pay anything in a lump sum. But that may not apply for peace treaties. For those, you could probably get anything you want regardless of reputation.

 

[shinsei]

ok,so if i had peace threaty with someone without any deals but still within the 20 turns,then can break it without any rep/att hits?as bamspeedy's thread mention that declare war while within the turns will make all the civs thats peaced with the one you broke with adds the penalty to attitude.

 

[shinsei]

And let say if i had a MA with A against B,but then whithin 20 turns i sign a peace threaty with B and automaticly cancels the MA with A,but since i had MA with A without any tribute(no gold resourse etc.)so will it still hit my rep?

 

[Tribute]

I mean you can still make peace with lump sum deals being given to you even if your reputation has been broken. You cannot break a peace treaty without a reputation hit though if it has already been broken, there's no point in keeping your word anymore. (Isn't reputation a 1 shot thing? You either have been honest in all your deals, or are a liar and a cheat, right? After a while, it does get better but not much, right?)

Situation 2 also will be bad for your reputation. The alliance and the peace treaty are per turn deals. You must keep your word accordingly to keep your reputation clean. Same for RoP, MPP, and Trade Embargoes.

 

[shinsei]

yeah but if my rep is clean,do i get rep shot for breaking peace threaty,the threaty is without any gpt,just pure threaty within 20 turns?

for situation 2,i'm talking about threaty without gpts.

 

[shinsei]

Ok something REALLY BUGGED happens in my current game.

Babylon wants MA with me Against Aztec in 20 turns ago,and i request him giving me 19 gpt,and he accept.

At the end of the 20th turn,Babylon cames to me and wants to end this deal.

here comes the bug,after this deal end,no one would ever want gpt from me!not even gifting gpt!so i load back the file right before the 20th turn end and double check that my rep was clean,everyone accepts my gpt,so i end the turn,babylon cames the same way and ask to end the deal....again my rep is hit.whats the big deal here?he was the one who gaves me gpts.and the 20 turn is over,also he was the one who propose to end,but why does everyone hates me???

oh by the way,Babylon was identify as "liar" i think he probably got rep hitted before,but does that has anything to do with me for trading with a liar?

also although i accept the MA against Aztec,but during the 20 turns,i never did any damage to Aztec,does it has something do to with this?but not doing any damage suppose to be rep hit for MA,but why hits my gpt rep?and Babylon was the one who offer the gpt,not me!this is getting me so confusing!

 

[shinsei]

I have the file with me,anyone want to check out?

 

[Tribute]

I guess so. Post it. People will probably look.

Now then, were you making any other trades at the time? Luxes or resources? It might not have been the MA that triggered this reputation breaking thing.

 

[shinsei]

No,i trade no resources,never in this game.

here is the file.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/119439/backup.SAV

 

[Tribute]

Well, I looked at it. It seems you had already broken a deal with Korea. And they've blabbed. The following picture shows Cleopatra's reaction to a 15 gold for 1 gpt offer. Normally, this is an acceptable offer, but your reputation is bad. (Note that she would accept 1 gold for 1 gpt, so you can still make some gpt deals though they really suck for you.)