Request C3B to trade techs?

[Matrix]

There's a discussion going on about whether we should trade the following with C3B:

We give Currency and Construction.
We ask for Literature and whatever tech they get in the next era.

Currency & Construction: 16+20=36.
Literature & the other are 10+36/32=46/42.

So it will be more profitable for us than for them. Note that they still owe us some and with this they'll have that payed back.

 

[Matrix]

I added option 3, because I think that if they don't have horses time will only be in favour of us: knights are way superior. But then again, it might take too long before we know that. And we don't know what they're researching now, (do we?)

 

[Rik Meleet]

No

C3B is hurting at the moment; thus their ability to obtain techs has been hampered. Why help them overcome it? By doing this trade we help C3B more than ourselves. We can easily self-research or buy Feudalism, the only tech we need, and prepare ourselves for war.
There is no need to help C3B.

 

[rcoutme]

Why is there no option to sell them Construction for gpt? We could conceivably make back some of our costs and they could not stop the gpt payment for at least 15-17 turns (whatever is left on their penalty).

 

[Goonie]

No .

If someone posted a precise deal, and I thought it was advantageous, then I might reconsider.

 

[Provolution]

NO

No need to strenghten our opponent, and construction means earlier city walls, what are you guys thinking about. One player out and game over.

 

[magnusmarcus]

NO trading with C3B!

What has occured that anyone would even think c3b would trade or would even follow through with the trade once we give them all our cookies?

Imagine if you will us give them the necessary techs to get out of the ancient age, they get feudelism, and then they stomp all over us because we were so damn trusting of them.

We will be running out of land to expand to rather quickly and C3B has huge tracts of land to there north. To delay attacking c3b after we gain feudelism is a mistake.

We must finish them!

 

[Provolution]

To be honest, diplomacy has more or less earnt its role. All we need now is a couple of tech deals and to eliminate Brazuca. It is high time to win, by brute force and good planning, and not whimper around more.What beer are they drinking, what lingerie does the Brazillian Catwoman wear. Why should we have this and this law. Who si the gy that know the guy that know how to plan for that GPT trade for that extra worker on that NW desert tile? Should we fix their galley or sink it?

It seems all the small issues are discussed to death, and the big thing, how to win the war, is blatantly ignored. But now I take the backseat and wait for a new plan I can shoot down with my heartfelt skepticism.

 

[Yndy]

I voted yes to ask them to trade, but I do not agree on a deal where they would get some techs on spot and would undertake to pay back one turn later. I mean, they could just not give us their free tech, is there anything stopping them from doing that?

 

[akots]

... construction means earlier city walls ...

Ahem ... Walls need Masonry, not Construction.

Regarding the deal, it is hard to tell. Don't really know. Saying "We should kill them" is easy whereas killing might be impossible without a clear advantage which we don't have.

 

[Pegster]

No more trades with brazil.

Time to kill.

 

[Matrix]

I voted yes to ask them to trade, but I do not agree on a deal where they would get some techs on spot and would undertake to pay back one turn later. I mean, they could just not give us their free tech, is there anything stopping them from doing that?

Yes: we tell CDZ which means we'll have them on our side for the rest of the game. Trust me on that.

 

[magnusmarcus]

.....Saying "We should kill them" is easy whereas killing might be impossible without a clear advantage which we don't have.

Quite correct! Which is exactly why we shouldn't trade! We could get feudelism in the time it takes them to research Currency and Construction. Then they may or may not get feudelism for there free tech. If they don't get feudelism we then gain "A clear advantage". Why give that advantage away?

 

[Provolution]

one thing is statistical advantage, with slightly better units. What about strategic advantate with a better strategy? This will be a close race for most of the game, and only a good plan would in the end make a difference. You can wait for nuclear weapons to get an edge for what I know, and end this farce in 2006.

 

[Matrix]

I think marcusmagnus is making a very strong argument here. He got me well convinced.

 

[Goonie]

There is no point in having an advantage if we don't have a plan of attack.

They will close the gap if we so choose to give them the oppurtunity.

 

[akots]

There is another point here since if they don't have horses and we do, this gives us clear advantage when we can get to knights. Hence, every tech trade which brings us closer to knights would be beneficial for us. And Engineering is beneficial in any case either attacking or defending.

We need a good plan certainly but not only a good plan. We need the best plan possible which is:

0) Is not all-war-out-victory-or-death -WeGetThemWithFinalBattleCry- plan leaving sufficient room for civilian development.
1) Does not involve unneeded risks.
2) Will be extremely difficult to counter even with an excellent strategy on the part of C3B. (We don't consider they are not making good plans as well. Some of our team members believe they have a superior vision of the situtiation but so do some of C3B members I bet. Assuming "we know better than them just because we know better" is misleading.)
3) Will use all possible advantages we can have.
4) Will be aimed to neutralize the possible advantages of C3B especially regarding their Immortals and extensive road network.
5) Will not cripple our future perspective in this game or in the final hence should not involve either backstabbing or dishonorable warfare.
6) Should have a back up in case of military failure leaving some room for retreat.
7) Should be aimed at delivering a serious enough blow to make recovery chances by the opponent slim.
8) Plan has to be kept secret enough and details distributed as classified info and not just posted at the forum. We do have essential security clearance from Rik but there are still a few additional aspects to it which have to be considered.
9) We should try hard to get a military alliance with the third party (CDZ or CGN) at least make sure they don't get alliance with C3B against us and we don't get Mounted Warriors or Cavalry in our backyard while most of our forces are marching north.

If we need to wait to knights to make it work, fine. If we need to wait to cavalry to make it work, fine either. If we can do it with what we have in 10 turns, also OK. But these points above are the minimal requirements for the plan to be a winning strategy.

 

[Rik Meleet]

There is another point here since if they don't have horses and we do, this gives us clear advantage when we can get to knights. Hence, every tech trade which brings us closer to knights would be beneficial for us. And Engineering is beneficial in any case either attacking or defending.

.
What would you do if you were C3B and you did have horses, but not connected.
1 - Tell your "ally" he has no horses so they do not prioritise The Wheel.
2 - Scout all his lands to see how many horses he has
3 - Deny access to your land to hide the fact you have horses
4 - Connect and disconnect them, so your "ally" will feel safe.
5 - All of the above.

 

[magnusmarcus]

.
What would you do if you were C3B and you did have horses, but not connected.
1 - Tell your "ally" he has no horses so they do not prioritise The Wheel.
2 - Scout all his lands to see how many horses he has
3 - Deny access to your land to hide the fact you have horses
4 - Connect and disconnect them, so your "ally" will feel safe.
5 - All of the above.

Damn thats sneaky...Its a good thing were not playing againts anyone underhanded or sneaky.

 

[akots]

That is evil, Rik. Alas, possible.