Research - where should I be aiming?

[Patricko]

Do you guys have a target number of research beakers you aim to be producing at certain times in the game? For example, do you aim to be at a certain level by 1000BC or 1000AD.

I realise it is dependent on a lot of different factors and will also vary depending on what the war situation is. Science is usually going to go down when at war.

As an example I play at Monarch/Emperor level. Usually I go for Fractal, random civ/leader, standard size map, normal time. Where should I be in terms of beaker production at different times?

 

[Funky]

I'm not so concerned about absolute numbers, because, as you said yourself, research is dependent on so many factors (difficulty level, size, climate and vegetation of your land, having rival civs and who they are, size and power of your own civ, diplomacy and warfare, use of espionage and/or cultur via the slider etc etc). I like to think more in terms of potential. E.g. I could have eliminated a rival from the small continent we both occupied. My research will be terrible, through the war and through the size of my empire after capturing the enemy cities. But my empire will have great potential without further continental rivals and its many cities.

The potential of your civ is hard to explain, and the feel for it depends mainly on your experience. The more you play, the more you are able to sense its value, which means you are able to judge when going to war is sensible, how large your empire should grow at a given time (without harming its potential), when it is worth it to invest into espionage points, when it is time to focus on hammers, when on commerce, and so on. Since the economical systems of research, production and gold are intertwined and relative to another, I find it misleading to single out research and the amount of beakers.

Finally, the quality of your research is relative to that of the other civs. If you are lagging behind in tech, you obviously have too little research. If you have a tech lead, it's fine and you could consider shifting more to production, if necessary. Note that in these examples the amount of beakers is not so important.

 

[Patricko]

Thanks for that Funky.

The reason I ask about beakers is that I read in a recent thread about people getting thousands of beakers per turn and I never get anywhere near that, so I feel I am doing something massively wrong. At Monarch I can normally out-research all the AIs, at Emperor I struggle to keep up. I usually go for a mixed cottage and specialist economy.

 

[shulgi]

I bet you could get some good benchmarks by asking for comparisons in the Noble's Club or other series on Strategies and Tips. I don't think those series are as maximized for learning as they could be. I think I should ask for some comparisons as well.

Working more tile improvements/higher population cities definitely helps. I was too hard on the whip and have relaxed that recently. Other than that, multipliers. But I have a lot to learn since I can still fall behind on tech in emperor as well. Another problem I have is when I am warring, I sometimes build too large an army for good teching but war always hurts tech anyway.

 

[Alchemind]

I pretty much think technology is over-rated considering the importance most people place on it. As far as where you should be aiming I think it's important to remember that technology is, most of the time, only as good as what you are able to afford in hammers to build. An astonishing amount of the time you're simply going to find yourself choosing what to build out of a multiple set of buildings or units that you do not have the production to afford. You can buy Code of Laws from someone but what does it matter if you don't neccesarily cant prioritize courthouses?

So from my very conservative perspective I think a good benchmark is to actually utilize the technology immediately for something. This idea of mine is biased towards large empires that prioritize land over anything else, as opposed to cultural/philosophically inclined empires. There are of course civics and wonders to keep in mind, so overall just make sure you dont get the tech for "just getting it."

ez

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

I pretty much think technology is over-rated considering the importance most people place on it. As far as where you should be aiming I think it's important to remember that technology is, most of the time, only as good as what you are able to afford in hammers to build. An astonishing amount of the time you're simply going to find yourself choosing what to build out of a multiple set of buildings or units that you do not have the production to afford. You can buy Code of Laws from someone but what does it matter if you don't neccesarily cant prioritize courthouses?

So from my very conservative perspective I think a good benchmark is to actually utilize the technology immediately for something. This idea of mine is biased towards large empires that prioritize land over anything else, as opposed to cultural/philosophically inclined empires. There are of course civics and wonders to keep in mind, so overall just make sure you dont get the tech for "just getting it."

ez

That is sage advice.

 

[MilesBeyond]

It really depends on what you're going for. "Higher than your opponents" is the obvious answer, but unless you're going for Space Race, being the tech leader isn't always mandatory for victory.

So to me, the number of BPT you should be aiming for is "Enough to accomplish your goals." Generating thousands of BPT is only helpful if you've got something you really need to be researching. If you've got the techs you need to carry out your goals, then you're set.

In other words, from my INEXPERIENCED perspective, BPT should be less a question of "How many should I have by this point in time," and more a question of "How many do I need to be generating to accomplish what I want to do."

 

[damerell]

It really depends on what you're going for. "Higher than your opponents" is the obvious answer, but unless you're going for Space Race, being the tech leader isn't always mandatory for victory.

But it doesn't hurt. Diplomacy victory? The more techs I have, the more opportunity I have to give into begging and give them away. Conquest/Domination? The advantages of being first to Rifling, Assembly Line, Industrialism, Combustion etc. are obvious. Culture cheese? The sooner I have the techs I need, the sooner I can shut off research. Time? Techs are score, both directly and by supporting larger populations. Sure, you can win without being the tech leader - but it never hurts, and with a significant tech edge you can write your own victory ticket.

 

[WelshGandalf]

Whilst accepting the above as true, I would say 100 bpt at 1AD is a decent target.

 

[MilesBeyond]

But it doesn't hurt. Diplomacy victory? The more techs I have, the more opportunity I have to give into begging and give them away. Conquest/Domination? The advantages of being first to Rifling, Assembly Line, Industrialism, Combustion etc. are obvious. Culture cheese? The sooner I have the techs I need, the sooner I can shut off research. Time? Techs are score, both directly and by supporting larger populations. Sure, you can win without being the tech leader - but it never hurts, and with a significant tech edge you can write your own victory ticket.

No argument here. The more techs you have, the more options are available to you. Having more techs is always a good thing. But it's not the whole game, and especially if someone is a newbie (not sure if OP is or not) it's easy to get caught up in "Why build Riflemen if Infantry are only a couple techs away," etc.

 

[Manco Capac]

Whilst accepting the above as true, I would say 100 bpt at 1AD is a decent target.

True. 200 bpt is defined to be strong and 300 bpt to be excellent, which means you are pretty skillful enough.

 

[Alchemind]

But it doesn't hurt. 1. Diplomacy victory? The more techs I have, the more opportunity I have to give into begging and give them away. 2. Conquest/Domination? The advantages of being first to Rifling, Assembly Line, Industrialism, Combustion etc. are obvious. Culture cheese? The sooner I have the techs I need, the sooner I can shut off research. 3. Time? Techs are score, both directly and by supporting larger populations. Sure, you can win without being the tech leader - but it never hurts, and with a significant tech edge you can write your own victory ticket.

1. Correct, however antiethical it is to Space Race victory. 2. The advantage is only as good as it's immediate use. So you're able to support pumping out production of Riflemen, Factories, Public Transport with little impedance and no conflict with other priorities? 3. Correct. How many times have you won by a time victory?

 

[damerell]

So you're able to support pumping out production of Riflemen, Factories, Public Transport with little impedance and no conflict with other priorities?

If I can make Riflemen and no-one else can, producing them is very nearly my only priority, because the right thing to do in that situation is squash your nearest rival flat. Likewise for Infantry (although cranking out a Factory first might not hurt). And Public Transport? That's not quite what I had in mind after Combustion.

 

[Patricko]

Whilst accepting the above as true, I would say 100 bpt at 1AD is a decent target.

True. 200 bpt is defined to be strong and 300 bpt to be excellent, which means you are pretty skillful enough.

Thanks for that - it gives me an idea of where I should be aiming.

 

[dylanmeditates]

however antiethical it is to Space Race victory

i'm sorry, it's unethical to do a space race victory? i'm an expert on neither this game nor ethics but i love to learn so please, do go on!

 

[lymond]

^^^that's obviously a typo, dylan, and pointing those out is shunned here

 

[dylanmeditates]

^not trying to edit, I actually thought alchamind was implying that there was something wrong on a moral basis with going space race. was it supposed to say 'antithetical'? very possible that i'm the stupid one here

 

[MilesBeyond]

Yes, I believe it was supposed to say antithetical. To be honest his post was pretty ambiguous, but given the context I'm going to guess he meant that giving away techs to get a diplo victory pushes the AI further along the road to a Space Race victory, possibly screwing yourself.

Of course, he could have meant unethical, since some players view diplo victories as cheesing. Then again, some players view everything that's not Dom as cheesing

 

[AW Arcaeca]

I think it kind of depends on the victory you're aiming for. For example, if you're trying to win a cultural victory then you'll want to be as far ahead technologically as you can found as many religions possible with. Or if you want a space race victory then you'll need to be researching towards rocketry as fast as possible.

Having theology around 30 AD or so seems to work out fine for me, but I play on Noble most of the time, so I don't know how well it would work out on Monarch or Emperor.

 

[shlks]

Having theology around 30 AD or so seems to work out fine for me,

I consider 1500 AD theology pretty good, just before I complete my spaceship ( I am trolling with exaggerations of course =P)