Resource generation seems very flawed and is not linked to map size

[pokiehl]

It really seems like the game always generates a fixed amount of luxury and strategic resources, and that this number does not scale with map size.

It makes larger maps feel extremely barren. I hope they fix this.

 

[troubleshooting]

For what it’s worth, I did a terra-style map for my first game and the “new world” had about twice the resources that the “old” did

 

[Krajzen]

Honestly, as much as the map is beautiful, and as much as biomes are diverse, I think it was a really bad idea not to copy civs concept of "the map is densely covered by luxury resources, bonus resources and features, so the player feels constantly excited when encountering perfect city spots and interesting areas".

Wasn't that even true in Endless Legend? Anyway, coasts in HK lack sea resources, lands lack cows and sheep and grains and stone quarries... You know, stuff that would really focus your attention.

 

[pokiehl]

Honestly, as much as the map is beautiful, and as much as biomes are diverse, I think it was a really bad idea not to copy civs concept of "the map is densely covered by luxury resources, bonus resources and features, so the player feels constantly excited when encountering perfect city spots and interesting areas".

Wasn't that even true in Endless Legend? Anyway, coasts in HK lack sea resources, lands lack cows and sheep and grains and stone quarries... You know, stuff that would really focus your attention.

I agree 100%

 

[Siptah]

The game feels already much easier on large and huge Maps though, so adding more strategic and luxury resources, which makes it even more easier again, especially for the player, would make playing on the larger maps less interesting imho. We‘re already at the point where the small map - huge map difference in difficulty feels larger than a difficulty level.

and as said elsewhere: the land is full of ‚Bonus‘ resources, there are around 20 different ones of them. Many just aren’t as visible and you generally interact a bit less with them compared to civ as their bonus is a fix amount that doesn’t change - you just need to exploit it.

 

[pokiehl]

The game feels already much easier on large and huge Maps though, so adding more strategic and luxury resources, which makes it even more easier again, especially for the player, would make playing on the larger maps less interesting imho. We‘re already at the point where the small map - huge map difference in difficulty feels larger than a difficulty level.

and as said elsewhere: the land is full of ‚Bonus‘ resources, there are around 20 different ones of them. Many just aren’t as visible and you generally interact a bit less with them compared to civ as their bonus is a fix amount that doesn’t change - you just need to exploit it.

I guess we’ll agree to disagree. This feels like an oversight or bug rather than a deliberate design decision. The game would only be easier on larger maps if you use fewer AI; that’s no different from Civ.

Strategic resources are already so few and far in between that it’s just plain not fun on larger maps because of this bug.

There’s also another bug affecting civic unlocks; using more than 6 total players makes civics unlock much slower for some reason.

I think they need to do a serious bug pass at larger games (both larger maps and more players)

 

[Gedemon]

Wasn't that even true in Endless Legend? Anyway, coasts in HK lack sea resources, lands lack cows and sheep and grains and stone quarries... You know, stuff that would really focus your attention.

as Siptah said there are a lot of small bonus tiles. Maybe they should raise their yields as districts adjacency make them look relatively poor. (edit: but looking at them right now they are quite interesting for the early game)

edit: just found sheep in my new game, hours of fun ! (follow the mouse cursor movement...)

 

[Siptah]

There’s also another bug affecting civic unlocks; using more than 6 total players makes civics unlock much slower for some reason.

This is indeed a known bug.

But no, larger maps are not just easier if you put in less players, they are easier due to a number of partly interwoven aspect, of which diplomatic stances and trade are surely at the forefront. Almost every game on a large map turns into hugfest with a large amount of trade passing through everybody. This is much less the case on smaller maps and with fewer players, which makes the game, indeed, harder. There's a reason why Elhoim put out his earth map also in a version with much less resources - it just works much better on huge maps this way at the moment.

My feeling is that the game is very much balanced for normal maps and normal speed, and as soon as you change that, things get different rather quickly. Balancing everything for all maps is a difficult thing, and I think it makes sense to balance mechanics first on a given specs (i.e. normal map size) and then see how things should change for larger maps after this first balancing is satisfactory. Given how stability is already a non-issue on normal maps, making it more easy on huge maps seems a step-in the wrong direction, for example.

 

[pokiehl]

But no, larger maps are not just easier if you put in less players, they are easier due to a number of partly interwoven aspect, of which diplomatic stances and trade are surely at the forefront. Almost every game on a large map turns into hugfest with a large amount of trade passing through everybody. This is much less the case on smaller maps and with fewer players, which makes the game, indeed, harder. There's a reason why Elhoim put out his earth map also in a version with much less resources - it just works much better on huge maps this way at the moment

I’m not sure what you mean here. I did a huge map with ten factions and didn’t find it particularly easy at all.

 

[Gedemon]

I’m not sure what you mean here. I did a huge map with ten factions and didn’t find it particularly easy at all.

because of the lack of strategic or the lack of luxuries for stability ?

I'd agree for strategic, but luxuries are available in high quantity as you can easily trade those, even without being best friends with an AI.

 

[Siptah]

I’m not sure what you mean here. I did a huge map with ten factions and didn’t find it particularly easy at all.

Sorry, if I was misunderstood here: it doesn't make the game easy per se, and I didn't want to express that. It's more that a game on "Civilization" on a Huge map feels as difficult on "Nation" on a small one. But there is a lot of randomness to difficulty at the moment anyway.

And luxuries have a lot to do with this. In a way, they amount of them multiplies per player, as they can be traded away multiple times. Thus, in theory, with 10 players on a huge map, you have twice the luxury resources compared to a small map with 5 players. Not that it turns out exactly like this, as not everybody is trading everything with everybody, but it still feels like there are many, many more around. And so are the number of trade routes - you get insane money/turn just from sitting there and letting other empires trade.

 

[pokiehl]

because of the lack of strategic or the lack of luxuries for stability ?

I'd agree for strategic, but luxuries are available in high quantity as you can easily trade those, even without being best friends with an AI.

Because I started next to two other players who didn’t like me and made it challenging for the rest of the game. It felt just like a normal game with the exception that my territories were practically barren of luxuries and completely bereft of strategics.

Sorry, if I was misunderstood here: it doesn't make the game easy per se, and I didn't want to express that. It's more that a game on "Civilization" on a Huge map feels as difficult on "Nation" on a small one. But there is a lot of randomness to difficulty at the moment anyway.

And luxuries have a lot to do with this. In a way, they amount of them multiplies per player, as they can be traded away multiple times. Thus, in theory, with 10 players on a huge map, you have twice the luxury resources compared to a small map with 5 players. Not that it turns out exactly like this, as not everybody is trading everything with everybody, but it still feels like there are many, many more around. And so are the number of trade routes - you get insane money/turn just from sitting there and letting other empires trade.

I guess I’m just not following you. What you’re describing seems to me to be how any 4x game works: larger maps mean more cities and more of well, everything.

that’s fine and we can agree to disagree but the issue I’ve reported is a bummer of a bug to me. Ideally they’ll fix it and then add a resource game setup option for players like you who maybe want fewer resources and players like me who want more.

 

[Siptah]

Yeah, ideally it’s best to have that as an option. And of course, larger maps/ more players means there needs to be more resources. But that already implemented and I‘ll try once more to explain what I meant.

say, there are 50 luxuries on a map. If you have five players each of them can be traded 5 times, so there is a total of 250 luxuries in the world, so 50 per Player. If you have 100 luxuries on the map and 10 players, there is a total of 1000, so 100 per Player. At the same time, supply is more stable, as you rarely are at war with half the world at the same time…

 

[AntSou]

Honestly, as much as the map is beautiful, and as much as biomes are diverse, I think it was a really bad idea not to copy civs concept of "the map is densely covered by luxury resources, bonus resources and features, so the player feels constantly excited when encountering perfect city spots and interesting areas".

Wasn't that even true in Endless Legend? Anyway, coasts in HK lack sea resources, lands lack cows and sheep and grains and stone quarries... You know, stuff that would really focus your attention.

The game does have a bunch of Anomalies, which is what they were called in Endless Legend. Anomalies are marked with a symbol. There's tons of them on the map, like clay sites and caves, which provide bonus yields like bonus resources in Civ. But for whatever reason they are not mentioned in the tutorials or encyclopaedia. I just know to try to settle near them because they use the same symbol they used in Endless Legend.

But they should definitely expand on these anomalies, how the player interacts with them, which events they trigger, etc. Right now they are too low key to the point I don't even know what they are called in Humankind. HOWEVER, the fact these anomalies are not heavily marked on the map like strategics and luxuries is definitely a plus for me. They're shown in the grayscale map when zooming out. I never liked to have my map covered with resource icons in Civ. There's too much visual clutter in Civ for my taste.

I'm frankly enjoying the system more than the one in use in civ 6. Each luxury has unique bonuses and a monopoly system, something which came very late to Civ 6. Strategics are hard to come by by default, another plus for me who tends to prefer Sparse resource settings in Civ games. This will probably be addressed with a Resource slider eventually.
---

Edit: Found them. They are just referred to as natural modifiers? Like I said, way too low key in terms of how they are communicated to the player.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The game is rich in terms of map features, but other than luxuries, those varied map features mostly just change tile yields. They're extremely valuable and do serve to make certain location better for certain districts, but they don't have any unique impacts and that does limit the excitement factor of, for example, Black Soil (although you'll be plenty happy to be able to place an early farmer's district beside Black Soil).

I'm torn on whether making these varied map features more impactful would improve gameplay or simply add more RNG luck. I do agree that the presentation of the map features is a bit underwhelming at first, but after you've played for a bit, you start to look for and appreciate these map features and to settle your city in places that allow you to reach as many of them as you can. The value of this may not be as immediately noticeable at first, though, especially with all the other things going on in HK maps.

 

[Elhoim]

Also, I think that they should increase the role of national parks, which you can only build on these features. Right now it's exploitation and a bit of influence. I think they should remove pollution and also add a bit of stability.

 

[Guynemer]

Unfortunately, these features are not very visible as it is, excepting in certain base terrain where they stand out more. If the player doesn't recognize these bonuses without zooming all the way out to the ugly gamescale map, that is a problem that needs to be addressed by the UI and/or a graphics pass to make them stand out more.

Also, not only are strategics not adjusting based on map size, some of them aren't spawning enough at ALL. So far I've played one game on the normal sized map, and one on the largest size.

Between those two games, there have been a total of three oil spawns, and three aluminum.

Not in my empire.

On the entire maps!

Given that a lot of the late game buildings/units require multiples of one or the other, it would be impossible to build them with an average of 1.5 resources in the entire world.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Unfortunately, these features are not very visible as it is, excepting in certain base terrain where they stand out more. If the player doesn't recognize these bonuses without zooming all the way out to the ugly gamescale map, that is a problem that needs to be addressed by the UI and/or a graphics pass to make them stand out more.

Also, not only are strategics not adjusting based on map size, some of them aren't spawning enough at ALL. So far I've played one game on the normal sized map, and one on the largest size.

Between those two games, there have been a total of three oil spawns, and three aluminum.

Not in my empire.

On the entire maps!

Given that a lot of the late game buildings/units require multiples of one or the other, it would be impossible to build them with an average of 1.5 resources in the entire world.

Generally, Resource Balance is still a Work in Progress. It's better than it was: for a while in the test builds I was settling on continents representing 1/3 of the land on a Large Map and finding 1 Horse or Copper Resource on the entire continent. Given the amount of resources you need to build Infrastructures as well as mid to late game Units, this was less a playable game than an exercise in Masochism.

It's a little better now, but I just finished a game in which I completed the entire Tech Tree but never built a surface ship more advanced than an Ironclad, because I had access to exactly 1 Oil Resource. This also kept me from building any Nuclear Missiles, tanks or artillery. Having Nuclear Submarines, Steam Frigates and Ironclads in the same navy was more than mildly jarring, I can tell you!

I've advocated it for Civ VII, and I'll keep banging the drum for it in Humankind: Progressive Resources. It is ridiculous that all the Oil, Coal, Iron, Aluminum, etc in the world appears like Magic at exactly the same moment. There should be Technologically-inspired points where more Resources appear: deep mining technology in the Medieval Age, or Open Pit Mines in the Modern Age (this would encroach a bit on Australia's Emblematic Quarter, but they could be given a boost to make up for it). You'd still have the problem of scrambling to secure Resources - establishing Diplomatic Trade Routes, settling new regions or conquering old ones that suddenly turn Valuable - but that, IMHO, would just keep the game more dynamic in the mid to late stages.

For Luxury Resources, Humankind not only has perhaps a tad too many available, but like Civ it has made the mistake of making most Trade and almost all Luxury/Amenity dependent on Natural Resources. In fact, as far back as the Ancient and certainly by the Classical Age an increasing amount of lucrative trade was in Manufactured Products ranging from decorated Pottery to high-end Jewelry. After the Industrial Age started in earnest, this expanded dramatically: cheap cloth and clothing, metal products from tools and machine tools to ships, railroad equipment and steam power plants, and in the Modern Era personal electronics and automobiles - take a look at any chart of High Value in world trade today, and virtually all of the top items are manufactured items and categories.

Dropping the sheer amount of natural Resources but allowing the addition of Manufactured Luxuries for Trade and other bonuses later in the game would potentially reduce the randomness of what the map gives you while placing in the gamer's hands the choice of whether to concentrate on Consumer Goods for, say, Fame and Trade. It was famously said that the Swiss got rich by taking a $60 ton of steel and turning it into watch mainsprings, and as far back as the late Medieval Age England (or at least, part of it) got rich by using their sheep to produce dyed wool cloth that had a much higher value/pound than raw wool, lanolin or mutton. That kind of mechanism should be in the game.

 

[Samez]

Just as Info: there is currently a bug which prevents later era resources to spawn in some games. I just had a game on a large map without any oil - makes the endgame really anoying.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Just as Info: there is currently a bug which prevents later era resources to spawn in some games. I just had a game on a large map without any oil - makes the endgame really anoying.

The late-game Strategics: Oil, Coal, Aluminum and Uranium seem to be coded to be the rarest. That means even a slight 'burp' in the map generation can leave a Large Map (the size I've been playing on) with 1 or 0 of any one of them. I just finished a game in which on a Large Map with 6 Factions there were only 2 Oil and 2 Uranium on the entire map. That meant, effectively, that no one Faction could get 2 Oil and therefore, nobody could build any tanks, battleships, aircraft carriers - it was extremely frustrating and also Immersion-Destroying to be testing Fusion Weapons while deploying Steam Frigates and Ironclads!

See above post. My solution would be to allow spawning of additional copies of the Resources later in the game, as Technology allows you to 'find' new deposits. The extra Oil might still spawn in the game map-equivalent of Alaska's North Slope, but at least it would be available with effort.