You do remember our Archers are called Bowmen actually, don't you...? 
Revenge of the Babylon Settlers - Roster B
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
Yes I know, despotic GA, yada yada yada. I think a despotic GA is the best way of getting rid of the Persians.
I now believe that a GA in despotism is the most powerful time to have it. An early boost in shields, with the ability to pop rush. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but I just find it really good for me.
I now believe that a GA in despotism is the most powerful time to have it. An early boost in shields, with the ability to pop rush. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but I just find it really good for me.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Originally posted by a space oddity
If the team agrees, I will attack reluctantly (yesss!) but the next player is going to bear the brunt. If Persia feels strong they won't offer peace on the short term. Our current focus on growth will mean any attack will cause very tense moments...
Oh boy
Actually, if I have some units, I think I can work the military side of this. Space, if you could just get a city or two with some decent shields I think we could make that work.
barbslinger
Gun blast'n shot drinker
I think if we can knock off a settler that would be OK. Going after a city with warriors sounds like folly. Perhaps 3-4 bowmen would work but I would certainly wait until we have some more cities so as to get something out of our GA. Finding the iron and denial of it is crucial IMO.
akots
Poet
Despotic GA is a good idea once there are at least 10 cities and there is no WC around yet. In general, bowmen are weird unit with no decent upgrade possibility. We might want to build 1 or 2 just to trigger GA when we want. To cripple Xerxes seriously, an early settler produced in the initial 2 cities has to be captured and the time has gone for doing this. If getting really desperate, Marduk can try to go and raize a town on periphery. Though his chances to succeed against fortified spearman are very small. Capturing a settler now will do Xerxes little harm but may give a good peace term may be even a city. Also, declaring war might halt Persian expansion. Usually, AI stops moving settlers in our direction and tries to settle where they are even if the location is not so optimal. And X-man will start building spearmen instead of infrastructure and workers. Well, he is industrious...
Military plan might involve building as many warriors as allowed, upgrading them to swords (if there is iron) and building some chariots (upgraded later to horsemen) for support and to handle immortals. With this size of map, we need about 40 swords by 700BC and about 8-10 horsemen. Plus MP. Building more towns and growing them in size and connecting by roads is a top priority. Improving terrain is also a priority but to a lesser extent. Cash is the key. Food we get from FPlains which do not need much improvement. Hooking luxuried is also a priority because this helps save cash. So, irrigation, mining, and chopping forests can wait for a while. Culture on the border is also a priority. Rax are important but regular swords are not that bad for attacking versus veteran. They are poor defenders but immortals can be hadled by horsemen.
It would be very interesting to discuss city placement when space is finished.
Military plan might involve building as many warriors as allowed, upgrading them to swords (if there is iron) and building some chariots (upgraded later to horsemen) for support and to handle immortals. With this size of map, we need about 40 swords by 700BC and about 8-10 horsemen. Plus MP. Building more towns and growing them in size and connecting by roads is a top priority. Improving terrain is also a priority but to a lesser extent. Cash is the key. Food we get from FPlains which do not need much improvement. Hooking luxuried is also a priority because this helps save cash. So, irrigation, mining, and chopping forests can wait for a while. Culture on the border is also a priority. Rax are important but regular swords are not that bad for attacking versus veteran. They are poor defenders but immortals can be hadled by horsemen.
It would be very interesting to discuss city placement when space is finished.
First of all: the save
pre-turn
Work the whale instead of the forest.
I will carefully scout the surrounding with the o-rama warrior, he moves W.
IT
Zzz
2510BC - turn 1
The warrior moves W again and finds a Persian border! That's close.
So much for far-away wars.
O-rama worker starts road on the wheat.
Babylon worker moves towards the BG (we need it mined!)
Work the roaded plains to save a turn on Myst.
IT
Zzzz
2470BC - turn 2
Marduk spots a settler, but it's guarded by a spear *and* a warrior. No chances there.
I contemplate MM Babylon to get the settler next turn, this will throw back Babylon to size 3, but if I don't many shields will be lost and a turn, so I do it.
This also means 1 turn extra on the tech.
IT
Another Persian scouting pair (warrior/spear) appears near Marduk, they are keeping me honest.
Babylon settler -> settler
2430BC - turn 3
The settler reaches spot nr1.
The worker starts mining the BG (ready in 6)
IT
Persia founds Gordium under the nose of Marduk.
2390BC - turn 4
Worker irrigates the wheat.
Ur is founded on spot nr1, starts warrior.
MM Babylon for growth in 2, settler in 4.
Myst is ready in 4 at (1.6.3) and 0gpt (5g in the bin).
IT
Zzz
2350BC - turn 5
The scouts scout.
IT
Persia starts the Colossus.
Food-o-rama warrior -> worker
2230BC - turn 6
Myst will be in next turn, so we make a buck this round.
IT
Myst comes in! Let's see if X-man cares to trade.
Babylon Settler -> Settler
2190BC - turn 7
X-man would give us Warrior Code if we throw in the extra 1gpt. I decide to make the deal and start The Wheel at max.
This is all a bit contrary to what I'd normally do at this level but Poly would be 40 turns until we have a couple more cities anyway, so I think this should be OK for now.
(Ducks for the inevitable
)
Settler moves onto the Dyes, worker is ready mining and moves in to connect the lux.
Our factory is ready!
The luxery slider needs to go up.
IT
The persians start the pyramids.
2150BC - turn 8
Nineveh founded, starts warrior.
worker starts road, ready in 3, should help our slider.
Scout walks boldly into Persian land.
IT
X-man asks us to leave, we will.
Food-o-rama worker -> worker
2110BC - turn 9
The slider needs adjustment.
Marduk spots incense.
IT
Zzzz
2070BC - turn 10
MM Babylon to grow in 1, food-o-rama to have an extra (much needed) happy gold. The road to the Dye city is ready next turn, when the o-rama worker completes the road to Ur, he can start on the Gems.
Firaxis points: 164
And our current stock of cities:
pre-turn
Work the whale instead of the forest.
I will carefully scout the surrounding with the o-rama warrior, he moves W.
IT
Zzz
2510BC - turn 1
The warrior moves W again and finds a Persian border! That's close.
So much for far-away wars.O-rama worker starts road on the wheat.
Babylon worker moves towards the BG (we need it mined!)
Work the roaded plains to save a turn on Myst.
IT
Zzzz
2470BC - turn 2
Marduk spots a settler, but it's guarded by a spear *and* a warrior. No chances there.
I contemplate MM Babylon to get the settler next turn, this will throw back Babylon to size 3, but if I don't many shields will be lost and a turn, so I do it.
This also means 1 turn extra on the tech.
IT
Another Persian scouting pair (warrior/spear) appears near Marduk, they are keeping me honest.
Babylon settler -> settler
2430BC - turn 3
The settler reaches spot nr1.
The worker starts mining the BG (ready in 6)
IT
Persia founds Gordium under the nose of Marduk.
2390BC - turn 4
Worker irrigates the wheat.
Ur is founded on spot nr1, starts warrior.
MM Babylon for growth in 2, settler in 4.
Myst is ready in 4 at (1.6.3) and 0gpt (5g in the bin).
IT
Zzz
2350BC - turn 5
The scouts scout.
IT
Persia starts the Colossus.
Food-o-rama warrior -> worker
2230BC - turn 6
Myst will be in next turn, so we make a buck this round.
IT
Myst comes in! Let's see if X-man cares to trade.
Babylon Settler -> Settler
2190BC - turn 7
X-man would give us Warrior Code if we throw in the extra 1gpt. I decide to make the deal and start The Wheel at max.
This is all a bit contrary to what I'd normally do at this level but Poly would be 40 turns until we have a couple more cities anyway, so I think this should be OK for now.
(Ducks for the inevitable
)Settler moves onto the Dyes, worker is ready mining and moves in to connect the lux.
Our factory is ready!
The luxery slider needs to go up.
IT
The persians start the pyramids.
2150BC - turn 8
Nineveh founded, starts warrior.
worker starts road, ready in 3, should help our slider.
Scout walks boldly into Persian land.
IT
X-man asks us to leave, we will.
Food-o-rama worker -> worker
2110BC - turn 9
The slider needs adjustment.
Marduk spots incense.
IT
Zzzz
2070BC - turn 10
MM Babylon to grow in 1, food-o-rama to have an extra (much needed) happy gold. The road to the Dye city is ready next turn, when the o-rama worker completes the road to Ur, he can start on the Gems.
Firaxis points: 164
And our current stock of cities:
akots
Poet
Great! We are still alive and will try to kick. The only problem that is obvious is research. Wheel is a good idea but 40-turn Poly would be also good. We need cash anyhow and for Poly it is possible to beat X-man and Zulu and trade something from both of them. It would nice to move future warrior from Ur to Babylon for MP and build another in Ur. It might be even possible to build a temple in Babylon and try to go for 4-5-6 5-turn warrior-settler factory but 8 shields at pop 4 are required just before growth without working the forest.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
I've got it, but I would like some thoughts on where our next cities should go. Up on the Food River to the east of O-Rama looks good. Also NW of the capitol. Thoughts from the team?
I did think about that obviously. But I only could count 1 known civ, how are we going to meet the Zulu without ships? The 40-turn gambit loses much of it's value when there's so few civs to trade with.
I agree on the much needed MP for Babylon.
@Sir Bugsy: Yes, east is where the space is. The next settler should go northwest, I think, to claim some room 'round our capital.
I agree on the much needed MP for Babylon.
@Sir Bugsy: Yes, east is where the space is. The next settler should go northwest, I think, to claim some room 'round our capital.
Lurker jumping in
One thing to bear in mind about a 40 turn gambit, it's not just about trade. It would give the X-Man a chance to research some of the lower level techs, so reducing the cost for you to research them.
One thing to bear in mind about a 40 turn gambit, it's not just about trade. It would give the X-Man a chance to research some of the lower level techs, so reducing the cost for you to research them.
Well, that's why The Wheel is so cheap now...
barbslinger
Gun blast'n shot drinker
I like the idea of another first ring in case Persia gets ideas of encroaching us. 2nd city should try to grab the double wheat flood plains E of us on the river.
Looking tough. Good luck Bugsy!
Looking tough. Good luck Bugsy!
akots
Poet
Several comments of micromanagement. Nineveh should work newly mined BG instead of coastal square. Babylon does not need to work this BG for proper factory to work, this will waste 8 shields on settler. Food-o-Rama needs a temple ASAP and then warrior-barracks-warriors-workers. Babylon may build a warrior and then go for more settlers. This will waste some shields and delay expansion but otherwise factory would not work and shields will be wasted anyhow. X-man has 8 cities. This is bad. We are no better than him in building new ones. And military is extremely weak. Marduk can come back to help the current settler to survive. And I would dare to suggest a building plan. It is very risky but if we succeed, it would be possible to survive may be longer than other teams. The plan is simple. Get the Fplains! Then use the whip at max there. Connect luxuries, get all mountains in case of iron! Build warriors and save cash. It would be reasonable to switch research from Wheel to poly 40-turn. We are playing sort of farmers gambit and there is little way to transform it to Chariot gambit. And let the X-man do the dirty work with lower level techs. Babylonians were looking at the stars and speaking with Gods! Researching wheel (not at 40-turn rate) might be handy anyhow because it will decrease its cost when we trade for it with Zulu or X-man.
Two big red dots are essential cities to control the mountains. They must be built at all costs before Persians. Even at the cost of war and loss of some other cities. Other red dots are a good building sites also. Blue dots are possible building sites. Marduk can head SSE to secure the eastern spot for the next settler. Just make sure that Persia does not build there. Northern warrior is pretty much useless. We risk never getting to this tundra. Well, he can scare some Persian settler for a couple of turns. Overall perspective looks not so optimistic. However, settler factory has only started.
Re second ring. It may be a great idea. However, Persians would not settler beyond the FPlains if we settler there first. And large spacing between the cities E of Babylon may prevent them from doing it.
Good luck honorable SirBugsy!
Two big red dots are essential cities to control the mountains. They must be built at all costs before Persians. Even at the cost of war and loss of some other cities. Other red dots are a good building sites also. Blue dots are possible building sites. Marduk can head SSE to secure the eastern spot for the next settler. Just make sure that Persia does not build there. Northern warrior is pretty much useless. We risk never getting to this tundra. Well, he can scare some Persian settler for a couple of turns. Overall perspective looks not so optimistic. However, settler factory has only started.
Re second ring. It may be a great idea. However, Persians would not settler beyond the FPlains if we settler there first. And large spacing between the cities E of Babylon may prevent them from doing it.
Good luck honorable SirBugsy!
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
From the screen shot, it looks like we are very much into a farmer's gambit.
I will go for the next city to the NW, then east on the Food River.
This may take a little while to play. Hopefully I'll post by tomorrow after lunch Pacific Time.
Bugs
Edit: Cross post with akots. A bit of crossed messages here too. So what should our priorites be on settling.
1. Far eastern Big red dot
2. Close big red dot. (which is to the east on Food River so that makes sense)
When should we settle NW of Babylon?
Change research? How does everyone feel about that?
I will go for the next city to the NW, then east on the Food River.
This may take a little while to play. Hopefully I'll post by tomorrow after lunch Pacific Time.
Bugs
Edit: Cross post with akots. A bit of crossed messages here too. So what should our priorites be on settling.
1. Far eastern Big red dot
2. Close big red dot. (which is to the east on Food River so that makes sense)
When should we settle NW of Babylon?
Change research? How does everyone feel about that?
akots
Poet
Take your time with micromanagement, sir. And can I ask who is next to play? mad-bax has switched somebody between the teams but it is not clear who and where. Looks like he is in roster C or not?
Edited: Cross-posted it was indeed again. May be, current settler goes to closest red dot. Next one goes E or NWW or Babylon. Next goes to far E red dot. And next in between these red dots.
Edited: Cross-posted it was indeed again. May be, current settler goes to closest red dot. Next one goes E or NWW or Babylon. Next goes to far E red dot. And next in between these red dots.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
mad-bax - I wouldn't give it a second thought. This is one of the hardest GOTMs ever devised. If any team survives, I'd consider it a huge accomplishment.
I say you stay right where you are here on team B.
I say you stay right where you are here on team B.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
I have decided to leave the rosters as they are. Although they are perhaps not perfectly balanced, the hassle involved in changing them is just too much for me to put up with.
EDIT: I'm up after Bugsy but will not play until Wednesday. I have some RL stuff to do tomorrow. A short pause for breath may well be in order anyway.
EDIT: I'm up after Bugsy but will not play until Wednesday. I have some RL stuff to do tomorrow. A short pause for breath may well be in order anyway.
Do whatever you please. My reasoning was that *if* we need to build up some force we might want fast units. X-man wasn't really prepared to part with either the Wheel of IW, since we don't know anybody else I decided we needed to research one of them ourselves. I you guys are confident we'll acquire them through other means on relatively short notice, go ahead.
akots
Poet
Re research @space. The problem is that we are not getting HBR soon enough for survival unless we research it right after the wheel. But overall it looks reasonable and may be a good choice in some other game.
@Sir Bugsy. Cheer up. We have not lost yet de facto.
@honorable host mad-bax. I am playing the C3C/PTW variant game in parallel. Where can I post what is going on there and how to determine to which point it is safe to post. It can be kind of spoiler for the other teams.
@Sir Bugsy. Cheer up. We have not lost yet de facto.
@honorable host mad-bax. I am playing the C3C/PTW variant game in parallel. Where can I post what is going on there and how to determine to which point it is safe to post. It can be kind of spoiler for the other teams.
