RFC Europe: Civics Discussion Thread

Yes, you got the idea. This will stop France and Burgundy from growing very fast in the beginning and will indeed give an early edge to Arabia, Cordoba and Byzantium (until the civic becomes obsolete). Turkey will benefit from this only if they use an obsolete civic (since they come into the game somewhat late).

But since virtually all of western Europe is grassland this will be essentially the same thing as -1 food per farm for France/Burgundy/Germany et al. Thus, these civs will be discouraged from running manorialism, while the mediterranean ones will be fine picking it -- sort of the reverse of history.
 
Reasons to use Sefdom + Manorism on grassland:

- Grass + Cottage = 2/0/2 (I am assuming river is present, otherwise no farm can be build early on), the cottage needs time to grow, while Grass + Farm + Civics = 2/1/3 instantly (the hammer is especially useful in the beginning when there is no whip).

- Grass + Farm w/o Civics = 3/0/1. Two farms = one specialist, however, early in the game there will be no buildings to utilize the specialist. Also, the city will not grow much due to unhealthiness (3/0/1 becomes 2/0/1 when the health limit is reached), thus one cannot run many specialist anyway. Furthermore, 3/0/1 has no extra hammers and those are very important.

- Early on, there are no other civics and/or improvements available. The only other improvement that will be in regular use is the mine, we can make serdom/manorism give bonus for that as well. 3/0/1 (farm on grass w/o civics) + 1/4/0 (mine in forest) is a good combination (4/4/1) vs two times 2/1/3 = 4/2/6 (farm on grass + civics). To compensate we can give one extra food per mine perhaps (maybe too OP), or an extra hammer per mine (one can support one or two mines with the free food from the city tile).

Assume we have three population. Consider civics vs no civics.

- three cottages on grass = 6/0/6, slow growth and no production.
- two farm on grass w/o civics and one mine 7/4/4, this leaves room for a specialist if we have the buildings for it.
- two farms on grass + civics and one mine 5/6/6 (assuming no extra hammer from the mine), greatest commerce and production with slow population growth to stay below the health and happy caps.

For nations with plains, the above becomes 5/8/6, allowing for historically accurate larger armies and more buildings.
 
So on paper this seems like a really good idea, Let's include this in the next version and see how it works live.
Also is there a stability boost for using Manorialism+serfdom? If not there should beone definetly, and if there is then perhaps increasing it could encourage civs to use them both more (and serfdom+any civic other than manorialism could maybe give negative stability, depending on which civic).
 
Edit: Woops already posted this :).
 
Reasons to use Sefdom + Manorism on grassland:

- Grass + Cottage = 2/0/2 (I am assuming river is present, otherwise no farm can be build early on), the cottage needs time to grow, while Grass + Farm + Civics = 2/1/3 instantly (the hammer is especially useful in the beginning when there is no whip).

- Grass + Farm w/o Civics = 3/0/1. Two farms = one specialist, however, early in the game there will be no buildings to utilize the specialist. Also, the city will not grow much due to unhealthiness (3/0/1 becomes 2/0/1 when the health limit is reached), thus one cannot run many specialist anyway. Furthermore, 3/0/1 has no extra hammers and those are very important.

- Early on, there are no other civics and/or improvements available. The only other improvement that will be in regular use is the mine, we can make serdom/manorism give bonus for that as well. 3/0/1 (farm on grass w/o civics) + 1/4/0 (mine in forest) is a good combination (4/4/1) vs two times 2/1/3 = 4/2/6 (farm on grass + civics). To compensate we can give one extra food per mine perhaps (maybe too OP), or an extra hammer per mine (one can support one or two mines with the free food from the city tile).

Assume we have three population. Consider civics vs no civics.

- three cottages on grass = 6/0/6, slow growth and no production.
- two farm on grass w/o civics and one mine 7/4/4, this leaves room for a specialist if we have the buildings for it.
- two farms on grass + civics and one mine 5/6/6 (assuming no extra hammer from the mine), greatest commerce and production with slow population growth to stay below the health and happy caps.

For nations with plains, the above becomes 5/8/6, allowing for historically accurate larger armies and more buildings.

Although we can provide a stability penalty for running serfdom without manorialism, we can't make it overwhelmingly harsh, because such penalties are hidden from the AI and from new players. Therefore we can't really prevent people from choosing serfdom but not manorialism, which is the important comparison (we know serfdom + farms is a fine choice).

Thus, in the above example with serfdom and decentralization and two grass farms + one mine you get 7/6/4. If we're at the happy cap growth isn't good, but otherwise you can grow more quickly to work another person sooner, which is basically always better. I know I would do this.

(I should say, as an aside, that I've removed the ability to mine forested hills again. Seriously people, this makes forested/mined hills ridiculously powerful squares.)

Just to be clear, the three options for manorialism on the table are:
  1. Keep farms with -1:food: and +2:commerce: (and, presumably, the boost to unit production)
  2. Change so that if farms produce more than 2:food: they will suffer a -1:food: penalty (keep the +2:commerce: and unit production boost?). This would require some SDK work by 3Miro. The AI would have to be informed of this behavior in order to value squares correctly, and we'd have to provide some guidance on this mechanism to human players.
  3. Change so that manorialism simply give -1:traderoute: and +1:commerce: per farm. Deal with city growth by restricting number of :health: resources and building. This would requires some additional pruning of map or buildings by someone (possibly me).

I agree that (1) make manorialism a somewhat weak or situational choice early on, but the same is true for (2) if you have grasslands. I'm not strictly opposed to (2), it just seems like more work than necessary to me. (3) is, at least, easy.
 
(I should say, as an aside, that I've removed the ability to mine forested hills again. Seriously people, this makes forested/mined hills ridiculously powerful squares.)

I was wondering why this was enabled in the first place. This change makes lumbermills useful again.
 
I see what you mean sedna.

1. Currently -1 food is too harsh for civs with a lot of plains. Farms would be bad for them, having no good way to get food (other than plains + cottages). Every farm would practically cost food.

2. Can be done w/o too much trouble, however, it will have to wait after Christmas. I think the AI might get the 3 - 1 thing automatically.

3. +1 gold from farm vs +1 gold from cottage that would grow. It makes sense only on plains and not grassland.
 
I think that science penalties are essentially the kiss of death for a civic, regardless of whether they are historically appropriate. This is why I have dropped them entirely in the above plan.

Exactly. The benefits would have to be crazy good for me to ever accept an overall science penalty for a civic.
 
I see what you mean sedna.

1. Currently -1 food is too harsh for civs with a lot of plains. Farms would be bad for them, having no good way to get food (other than plains + cottages). Every farm would practically cost food.

Not just practically and not would, but does currently do so. On this basis, I do not currently ever adopt Manorialism.
 
It's pretty obvious that he does since he's talking about cottages which give commerce and not gold.
About our discussion, I think I have an idea, how about farms basically never give food, only 1 commerce (and additional commerce and hammer from manorialism and serfdom), but with Arabic knowledge or medicine they will give +1 food (just like biology).
That way Cordoba and Arabia will still grow faster and be stronger than Europeans, and most of the times Europeans will prefer farms over cottages when running starting civics (1 hammer and 2 commerce at the start). This will of course harm civs like Byzantium, Spain and Portugal, so to counter this perhaps easing up on their growth via code will do the trick.
This also means that once the Europeans reach the 14th century or so and learn Arabic Knowledge, their cities will grow and they'll be a lot stronger.
What do you think?
 
But the farms will produce only 1 commerce without it (and another commerce and hammer with civics), So it wouldn't be that OP. Europeans could still grow by settling near food resources.
I'd happily run a few test games as the Dutch if I knew how to change farms from giving +1 food to +1 commerce and that Arabic Knowledge makes farms give +1 food as well.
 
But the farms will produce only 1 commerce without it (and another commerce and hammer with civics), So it wouldn't be that OP. Europeans could still grow by settling near food resources.
I'd happily run a few test games as the Dutch if I knew how to change farms from giving +1 food to +1 commerce and that Arabic Knowledge makes farms give +1 food as well.

I personally don't really like the new farm idea. Farms give food. Thats kinda basic, whether or not you have arabic knowledge. Besides if this idea is used, Islamic faith + Arabic knowledge + farms = CRAZY IMBA GROWTH right at the start. And my beloved Byzantium would be absolutely dead at the start with all Asia Minor cities at most size 2, and lets not forget the ridiculous Byzantine growth rate.

EDIT: i'm not sure if you guys have removed the tech penalty from religious law and theocracy, but if you guys have already done that then HOORAY! :D
 
Interesting ideas. Let me just think out loud here for a while.

While it is true that "farms produce food" -- for early-mid medieval Europe the farms were not that productive, and most of the food was used for subsistence. In the civ model, food produced on farms is used to grow cities/population. Specifically, the excess food for a worked plot (beyond the two food necessary to support that person) always goes to population growth.

So I think it historically appropriate to limit the food from farms until the introduction of crop rotation in the late middle ages (for Europe) and the Muslim Agricultural Revolution of the 9th century for Islamic civs (perhaps with a tech like Arabic medicine, which currently is fairly cheap and requires only Arabic knowledge, so the Muslim civs can research it quite quickly).

Does this make for good gameplay? Ultimately we would have to see, but I think we can reason about it a little bit. Cities still get surplus (>2:food:) food from pastures, farms on grain resources, and seafood. Windmills on a grassland hill would also give a surplus :food: (though windmills come a bit early in our tech tree). But if farms don't give food, is there any reason to build them? If we stick with serfdom+manorialism giving +1:hammers: and +1:commerce: then farms (with an initial +1:commerce: ) are an okay improvement, but I might prefer to skip serfdom and spend my people on a cottage (which will grow) or a mine (which is already pretty good). Still, for a quick starting boost the farms are the best improvement you can make, and many cities will have a grain resources which requires a farm anyway, so skipping serfdom means you're missing out on those "free" hammers and commerce.

Okay, then how might we work the mechanics? We could:
  1. Drop the farm food bonus and give +1:food: with Arabic Medicine.
  2. Place the +1:food: bonus elsewhere in the tech tree, somewhere a bit earlier, but where the Muslims can still reach it first. We could make it have an OR requirement so that you either need Plate Armor (say) or Arabic knowledge.
  3. Make the default Economy civic (decentralization) ALSO give -1:food: to farms, just like manorialism. This is sort of equivalent to pushing the food bonus back to whichever tech enables the next economy civic, but a rather different way to achieve that end. Of course, then smart players will switch out of manorialism ASAP.

The reason I'm tempted by this idea is because I think it is desire-able to reduce the magnitude of the invisible coded growth/production rates between the civs and achieve our balance/history goals more through terrain (forests) and starting techs. With these changes we could bring down the penalties on the starting civs (particularly France/Burgundy and Byzantium).

@BurnEmDown: Here's how to do it if you want to experiment. Make a backup copy of RFCEurope/Assets/XML/Terrain/CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml and then edit that file.

Here's what the farm entry currently looks like:
Spoiler :
Code:
		<ImprovementInfo>
			<Type>IMPROVEMENT_FARM</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_IMPROVEMENT_FARM</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_IMPROVEMENT_FARM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_FARM</ArtDefineTag>
			<PrereqNatureYields>
				<iYield>1</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
			</PrereqNatureYields>
			<IrrigatedYieldChange>
				<iYield>1</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
			</IrrigatedYieldChange>
			<bActsAsCity>0</bActsAsCity>
			<bHillsMakesValid>0</bHillsMakesValid>
			<bFreshWaterMakesValid>1</bFreshWaterMakesValid>
			<bRiverSideMakesValid>0</bRiverSideMakesValid>
			<bNoFreshWater>0</bNoFreshWater>
			<bRequiresFlatlands>1</bRequiresFlatlands>
			<bRequiresRiverSide>0</bRequiresRiverSide>
			<bRequiresIrrigation>1</bRequiresIrrigation>
			<bCarriesIrrigation>1</bCarriesIrrigation>
			<bRequiresFeature>0</bRequiresFeature>
			<bWater>0</bWater>
			<bGoody>0</bGoody>
			<bPermanent>0</bPermanent>
			<bUseLSystem>1</bUseLSystem>
			<iAdvancedStartCost>30</iAdvancedStartCost>
			<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
			<iTilesPerGoody>0</iTilesPerGoody>
			<iGoodyRange>0</iGoodyRange>
			<iFeatureGrowth>0</iFeatureGrowth>
			<iUpgradeTime>0</iUpgradeTime>
			<iAirBombDefense>5</iAirBombDefense>
			<iDefenseModifier>0</iDefenseModifier>
			<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
			<iPillageGold>5</iPillageGold>
			<bOutsideBorders>0</bOutsideBorders>
			<TerrainMakesValids>
				<TerrainMakesValid>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
					<bMakesValid>1</bMakesValid>
				</TerrainMakesValid>
				<TerrainMakesValid>
					<TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
					<bMakesValid>1</bMakesValid>
				</TerrainMakesValid>
			</TerrainMakesValids>
			<FeatureMakesValids/>
			<BonusTypeStructs>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_CORN</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>0</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>2</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_RICE</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>0</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_WHEAT</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>0</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>2</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_BARLEY</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>0</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_POTATO</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>0</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
			</BonusTypeStructs>
			<ImprovementPillage/>
			<ImprovementUpgrade/>
			<TechYieldChanges/>
			<RouteYieldChanges/>
			<bGraphicalOnly>0</bGraphicalOnly>
		</ImprovementInfo>

Changing the following lines will change farms from +1:food: to +1:commerce: (changed values in red)
Code:
<IrrigatedYieldChange>
      <iYield>[COLOR="Red"]0[/COLOR]</iYield>
      <iYield>0</iYield>
      <iYield>[COLOR="Red"]1[/COLOR]</iYield>
</IrrigatedYieldChange>
Then replace the line <TechYieldChanges/> with all of these lines to give the +1:food: bonus on Arabic Knowledge.
Code:
  <TechYieldChanges>
   <TechYieldChange>
    <PrereqTech>TECH_ARABIC_KNOWLEDGE</PrereqTech>
    <TechYields>
     <iYield>1</iYield>
     <iYield>0</iYield>
     <iYield>0</iYield>
    </TechYields>
   </TechYieldChange>
  </TechYieldChanges>
 
3 is a great idea. We should test it for the Iberian civs that have a lot of plains, but otherwise it is the way to go (in my opinion).

This way the layer is sure to use Manorism, have small cities in the beginning and switch from it as soon as possible.
 
  1. Make the default Economy civic (decentralization) ALSO give -1:food: to farms, just like manorialism. This is sort of equivalent to pushing the food bonus back to whichever tech enables the next economy civic, but a rather different way to achieve that end. Of course, then smart players will switch out of manorialism ASAP.

I like this idea, and its even me another thought - why don't we make Serfdom and Manoralism the default civics in their catagories, showing the post Roman collapse that earlier european civs will start off with before they switch to something better. We also have another earlier civic in the economic column - Nomadic Warriors (-1f farms, food goes towards miltiary unit production) for the Arabs, Cordobans, Bulgarians Magyars, and Ottomans to start off with.

The new labour civic slot could be used for various different effects depending on what people feel like. A Bourgeois civic with trade bonus perhaps, or a military bonus one (Levees?), or a 'Plantation' one for expansion into new territory? (verses the current mix of Free Labour:Cottage, Apprenticeship:Specialists, Free Labour:production/Late Game).

This isn't regular CIV - all our civs are starting past the tribal and decentralised stages of their culture.
 
This isn't regular CIV - all our civs are starting past the tribal and decentralised stages of their culture.

Well, not quite -- we do have a fair number of civs (Bulgarians, Magyars, Franks, maybe Arabs) who start off as fairly "tribal" in the conventional sense of the word. But I have suggested something similar -- making civs start with different "default" values (this is very easy to implement) so that we can start some civs in manorialism and some in "decentralized" or "nomadic" economies and reflect that bit of history.

So far I haven't touched the "food goes to produce military units" tag in the XML. I've played a few mods with a civic that does that, and I have very mixed feelings about it.
 
Well, not quite -- we do have a fair number of civs (Bulgarians, Magyars, Franks, maybe Arabs) who start off as fairly "tribal" in the conventional sense of the word. But I have suggested something similar -- making civs start with different "default" values (this is very easy to implement) so that we can start some civs in manorialism and some in "decentralized" or "nomadic" economies and reflect that bit of history.

So far I haven't touched the "food goes to produce military units" tag in the XML. I've played a few mods with a civic that does that, and I have very mixed feelings about it.

That is interesting, you mean when you build a unit the food counts towards production just as if you were building a worker/settler. The effect would be interesting, however, I cannot predict if it will work well for the mod. You can make the default tribal nations have that (i.e. more militaristic Bulgaria and Magyars). Didn't Charlemagne had something seasonal about his army, i.e. he waits fro the farmers to gather the crops and then he drafts them to go on a campaign (I don't recall the history lesson entirely).
 
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