RFC Europe historical feedback thread

Generally, I think it's not impossible to name atrocities committed by non-Christian religions, here on these forums or elsewhere, so we must have made different experiences.

It all depends on the actual implication of these kind of statements as well. Claiming "the crusaders committed this massacre because they were Christian" or even worse "the massacres committed by the crusaders prove that Christianity is an evil religion" is something different than just saying "Christian crusaders committed a massacre". My conviction is that only the former need to be called out, no matter which religion is concerned. But this is usually the case. I again remind you that the reasoning "Islam is an evil religion because the terrorists who were responsible for 9/11 were Muslims" is still prevalent in the western discourse (can't say anything about Singapore though), so I really can't see any kind of exceptionalism for everyone except Christians.
 
Lets all be honest for once here. All religious groups has committed horrendous atrocities, and so have the atheists.

The facts are:
1) No one should be committing crimes in the name of any religion
2) It doesnt mean these religions are evil
3) No one should be denying the fact that these atrocities happened
4) No one should be relating these atrocities to any specific modern day religious group (something i see here in Singapore everyday)

Just becos christians/muslims/hindus/atheists few hundred years ago did something... doesnt mean christians/muslims/hindus/atheists today will do the same thing... doesnt mean christianity/islam/hinduism/atheism is bad and evil. You guys get what i mean?
 
Thanks, this is exactly what I was trying to say. Glad to see we've come to agree here.
 
The Turk said:
Ok, I'm sorry but who ever said that the Battle of Tours was "not significant" is an idiot.
It wasn't any more significant than any other border raid that was militarily stopped, so not very much. For all we know, it wasn't likely that Charles Martel's defeat would've led to a Cordoban conquest of Southern France. You're falling for Carolingian propaganda and French nationalism here.

Can you make it so that the Germans and Austrians are on very good terms with each other, because historically in the 13th century weren't they part of the SAME Empire even? So IMO they really should be best of friends
I think you still haven't understood how the empire worked. The Habsburgs were in constant conflict with their neighbors, Bohemia (part of the HRE) in particular.
 
Agreed in both cases
 
I'm sorry, are you saying this didn't happen in Catholic countries before and after the Reformation? What's the point?


He's a great Catholic example, oppressing art and science lest it threaten the teachings of the church, which were to be expressed to the illiterate peasants after being written in languages they couldn't even understand when they heard it.
Let's not forget the church pushing heliocentrism, etc... You think he was the first to threaten people with damnation, become a superstar for the church, and later be betrayed by the church when leadership changed? Hahahahaaaaa.
People like him are a huge part of the reason the Reformation, which you basically credit with having done nothing but inflict pain, occured. Get with the program...
I am guessing you went to Catholic School.


So, if that is the case, why are Africa and S. America, both very rich in resources, no where near the success of the USA? Specifically, S. America...
Seems the Catholic forces in charge down there should have done just as well, no?
Are you disputing that the Protestant community is known for individual achievement (more conservative) than the Catholic idea of community (more liberal)? This is a well accepted and established teaching.



The only somewhat accurate and applicable statement you made, when the Pope himself wasn't excomming countries for disagreeing/heresy/not giving him the respect he wanted and declaring crusades against them...

It's discussing the history, which we were talking about in the context of gameplay.
Nice petty reply, I guess you had nothing factual or interesting to say, so then opted for snarky. Good move.

My favorite part was where you said, "Unlike the Inquisition, the Protestants didn't give fair trials."
This may be right up there with suggesting renaming Jerusalem as Palestine... but, in fact, it is even more absurd.

The Inquisition gave fair trials... just ask Civ King... hahahaaahahahahaaahaahahahaaaaahahhahaha

1) The Fairness of Inquisition Trials.
source #1 said:
The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly. Heresy was a crime against the state. Roman law in the Code of Justinian made it a capital offense. Rulers, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw them as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath. When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had stolen a pig or damaged shrubbery (really, it was a serious crime in England). Yet in contrast to those crimes, it was not so easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. For starters, one needed some basic theological training — something most medieval lords sorely lacked. The result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent assessment of the validity of the charge.

The Catholic Church's response to this problem was the Inquisition, first instituted by Pope Lucius III in 1184. It was born out of a need to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges. From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep who had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring them back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.

2) Yes the Mass was in Latin, but the sermon which reflected on the passages were in vernacular

3) People were willing to accept Galileo's model as a good predictive model however his proof was very flawed. What made his situation worse was that he insisted his theory was correct despite the fact that the lack of stellar parallax proved his theory false. (Stellar parallax was proved in the 19th century)

4) With research it appears that Savonarola was killed by that Borgia bastard because he was a reformer. Savonarola criticised the fact that despite poverty growing worse the wealthy Italian families spent more on art and sculpture, instead of helping their fellow man. He did not seek to divide the Church, but restore it, free it of abuses by scum.

5) No, I went to public school

EDIT:
6) South America got screwed over massively because of how pre-independence economy was structured, the Spanish were total jackasses to their colonies.

7) what do you by community?

8) The wishes of the RFCE team have been made abundantly clear, I was reminding you (also it is hard to make a lengthy post on a phone).
Source #1
 
3) People were willing to accept Galileo's model as a good predictive model however his proof was very flawed. What made his situation worse was that he insisted his theory was correct despite the fact that the lack of stellar parallax proved his theory false. (Stellar parallax was proved in the 19th century)

The heliocentric model was first proposed by Copernicus, not Galileo. While Galileo supported the heliocentric system and while it was at the center of the trial, it was negligible compared to his other achievements. Most people don't understand what Galileo actually did.

Galileo formalized the Scientific Method. This is the cycle of Observe-Model-Predict-Test, where the test becomes new observation. The SM is a self-improving, self-correcting process that has generated all of modern day technology. Computers, TV, Cars, Airplanes, ALL of Medicine, even modern day industrial societies are largely based upon the Scientific Method.

The method can look simple, but was a huge contrast to the way things were done before: "I think this is how things work and I can interpret this ancient book to agree with me, therefore, what I have is ABSOLUTE TRUTH and nobody should question it." Examples of this flawed thinking can be found in interpretation of Aristotle's work, while I can hardly point fingers at Aristotle for saying that the flies have 4 legs (nobody's perfect), I definitely hold it against everyone else who NEVER BOTHERED TO CHECK! This is the main flaw of pre-Galilean thinking.

Galileo's may have had poor evidence in support of the heliocentric system, however, his observation of the moons of Jupiter should have been sufficient to reject the geocentric one (again people never event tried to check). In the same note, I don't think anyone at the time actually tried to measure the stellar parallax and use that as evidence against heliocentrism. We are talking about the time when the spyglass was a major invention, there were no real telescopes and sextant wasn't even invented yet.

Another example of Galileo's challenge to the preconceived flawed concepts was the evidence against the concept that bodies fall with speed proportional to their weight. He did not have the concept of Gravity much less aerodynamics, however, he had direct evidence disproving thousand year old concepts.

Other than the Scientific Method, Galileo's second major contribution is the challenge of Aristotle's "static theory" and establishing what is now knows as Galilean Relativity (not to be confused with Einstein's Special or General Relativity). Galilean Relativity is summarized in Newton's first law of Mechanics.

"Static Theory": every body's natural state is that of rest. A body moves when a force is applied to it and without the force, the body will eventually stop. Also, the speed of the body is proportional to the force applied. (This may sound right, but it is not. Aristotle observed what we now call friction and he extrapolated too much. Yet again, nobody tied to rigorously check.)

Galilean Relativity (i.e. Newton's First Law): a body remain at rest OR keeps moving in a straight line until it interacts with another body. While Galileo tried to measure the relation between speed and force, he only got so fat as to find that the distance a body falls is proportional to the square of the time (Galileo actually measured that). It takes Calculus to get from this to Newton's Second Law (commonly know as F = ma). I also don't think Galileo had the concept of mass either.

Note that going from Galilean Relativity and F = ma, using Copernicus's measurement for the ratio of period of rotation to distance from the sun for the planets, you can get the inverse-square law of Gravity with two steps of elementary algebra. But this is now on a tangent.

Putting someone under house arrest for having a strange idea is wrong even if the idea is completely absurd, much less not fully supported. Galileo's ideas were not fully supported by evidence, but neither were the ideas of Isac Newton and Albert Einstein. For example: the exact orbit of Mercury doesn't match Newton's Law of Gravity, not to mention that he got the formula for Kinetic Energy totally messed up. Einstein, at the end of his career refused to accept quantum mechanics and the strong nuclear force, despite the evidence and measurements (Einstein kept working on his unification theory, which directly contradicts evidence). Should we have put Newton and Einstein under house arrest too? If we were to treat scientists that way, we would still be using bloodletting to cure the flu.

Science is never perfect, however, it is always self-improving and self-correcting. Heliocentric system is wrong, Geocentric system is wrong and Flat-Earth system is considered as major example of ignorance, however, all three of those are good predictive models under many circumstances. The people (ALL people, not just the Church, but also the "philosophers" at the time) should have first of all accepted that the Geocentric system fails. Then they should have funded further research in taking accurate measurements of stellar parallax and other related phenomena and/or looked at an explanation for the lack of stellar parallax and/or considered an alternative falsifiable theory (I guess hypothesis is more appropriate name here).

Galileo's trial wasn't solely Church's doing, however, the Church is as guilty as it can be.
 
So, if that is the case, why are Africa and S. America, both very rich in resources, no where near the success of the USA? Specifically, S. America...
Seems the Catholic forces in charge down there should have done just as well, no?

I don't mean to provoke but that statement is somewhat flawed imo
you can't really compare the 2 continents :p
I'm only going to point a few larger differences (the African situation is even less comparable)
I doubt the Spanish would've behaved differently in the Americas even if they had been protestants(but having the Pope's 'blessing' was a nice bonus for them)

1. Geography & Climate
Those tropical rain forests in South America aren't exactly an area where 'urban life' easily expands into

2. Political situation
In South America 10 Countries evolved from the former Spanish and Portuguese Colonies taking about 20 years to do so (1806-1826)(pretty much the time when Napoleon was involved with a guerrilla war in Spain)
The former British colonies had the better idea of joining into a larger federation instead of each being independent.

3. How the original colonies were run
The English colonies put a much larger emphasis on trade.
The Spanish didn't have to do that, first they conquered then the only real 'export' you hear of was that they shipped huge amounts of gold and silver to Europe (not furs, spices etc.)(iirc Sugar was more the Portuguese and Dutch thing)
Basically the former Spanish colonies had to start from scratch, the Spanish economy had been in decline for centuries by the time they got their independence.

4. pure luck
The war of 1812 (unbelievable that the Americans won that one)


and p.s. before anyone gets any ideas, I only wanted to point out that a geopolitical development spanning several centuries and continents usually has allot more to it than simply 'religious beliefs' not saying they're unimportant but also not the 'main variable'
 
The heliocentric model was first proposed by Copernicus, not Galileo. While Galileo supported the heliocentric system and while it was at the center of the trial, it was negligible compared to his other achievements. Most people don't understand what Galileo actually did.

Galileo formalized the Scientific Method. This is the cycle of Observe-Model-Predict-Test, where the test becomes new observation. The SM is a self-improving, self-correcting process that has generated all of modern day technology. Computers, TV, Cars, Airplanes, ALL of Medicine, even modern day industrial societies are largely based upon the Scientific Method.

The method can look simple, but was a huge contrast to the way things were done before: "I think this is how things work and I can interpret this ancient book to agree with me, therefore, what I have is ABSOLUTE TRUTH and nobody should question it." Examples of this flawed thinking can be found in interpretation of Aristotle's work, while I can hardly point fingers at Aristotle for saying that the flies have 4 legs (nobody's perfect), I definitely hold it against everyone else who NEVER BOTHERED TO CHECK! This is the main flaw of pre-Galilean thinking.

Galileo's may have had poor evidence in support of the heliocentric system, however, his observation of the moons of Jupiter should have been sufficient to reject the geocentric one (again people never event tried to check). In the same note, I don't think anyone at the time actually tried to measure the stellar parallax and use that as evidence against heliocentrism. We are talking about the time when the spyglass was a major invention, there were no real telescopes and sextant wasn't even invented yet.

Another example of Galileo's challenge to the preconceived flawed concepts was the evidence against the concept that bodies fall with speed proportional to their weight. He did not have the concept of Gravity much less aerodynamics, however, he had direct evidence disproving thousand year old concepts.

Other than the Scientific Method, Galileo's second major contribution is the challenge of Aristotle's "static theory" and establishing what is now knows as Galilean Relativity (not to be confused with Einstein's Special or General Relativity). Galilean Relativity is summarized in Newton's first law of Mechanics.

"Static Theory": every body's natural state is that of rest. A body moves when a force is applied to it and without the force, the body will eventually stop. Also, the speed of the body is proportional to the force applied. (This may sound right, but it is not. Aristotle observed what we now call friction and he extrapolated too much. Yet again, nobody tied to rigorously check.)

Galilean Relativity (i.e. Newton's First Law): a body remain at rest OR keeps moving in a straight line until it interacts with another body. While Galileo tried to measure the relation between speed and force, he only got so fat as to find that the distance a body falls is proportional to the square of the time (Galileo actually measured that). It takes Calculus to get from this to Newton's Second Law (commonly know as F = ma). I also don't think Galileo had the concept of mass either.

Note that going from Galilean Relativity and F = ma, using Copernicus's measurement for the ratio of period of rotation to distance from the sun for the planets, you can get the inverse-square law of Gravity with two steps of elementary algebra. But this is now on a tangent.

Putting someone under house arrest for having a strange idea is wrong even if the idea is completely absurd, much less not fully supported. Galileo's ideas were not fully supported by evidence, but neither were the ideas of Isac Newton and Albert Einstein. For example: the exact orbit of Mercury doesn't match Newton's Law of Gravity, not to mention that he got the formula for Kinetic Energy totally messed up. Einstein, at the end of his career refused to accept quantum mechanics and the strong nuclear force, despite the evidence and measurements (Einstein kept working on his unification theory, which directly contradicts evidence). Should we have put Newton and Einstein under house arrest too? If we were to treat scientists that way, we would still be using bloodletting to cure the flu.

Science is never perfect, however, it is always self-improving and self-correcting. Heliocentric system is wrong, Geocentric system is wrong and Flat-Earth system is considered as major example of ignorance, however, all three of those are good predictive models under many circumstances. The people (ALL people, not just the Church, but also the "philosophers" at the time) should have first of all accepted that the Geocentric system fails. Then they should have funded further research in taking accurate measurements of stellar parallax and other related phenomena and/or looked at an explanation for the lack of stellar parallax and/or considered an alternative falsifiable theory (I guess hypothesis is more appropriate name here).

Galileo's trial wasn't solely Church's doing, however, the Church is as guilty as it can be.
Eh? Roger Bacon beat Galileo to the scientific method by several hundred years. Roger Bacon was also heavily into science and math, but he did it without alienating people.

Why would it invalidate geocentricism? In the geocentric model the moons orbited around Jupiter which in turn revolved around the Earth, they did not see a problem.

The lack of stellar parallax was a disproof of heliocentricism because a moving Earth would cause an observable stellar parallax therefore heliocentricism was see as flawed.

The problem wasn't that Galileo had a proof so broken a 12 year old could show it being broken (srsly, one tide a day?), but rather that he tried to push it as fact. The Jesuits when they got his theory thought "Cool beans bro, this new predictive model is easier to use and totally dope," but Galileo tried pushing that as fact and then tried to dictate theology to theologians...

Isaac Newton and Einstein would have been fine with their theories being used as predictive models, after all, that is exactly what they are.

Huzzah, someone who know Heliocentricism is wrong!

The spherical nature of the globe was well proven by the birth of Christ.

They had no proof that geocentricism failed and they demanded proof to debunk their long held model, but none came.

People bent over backwards to help Galileo including a pope and he acted like an ignorant prick.



respectfully, civ_king

pax
 
Eh? Roger Bacon beat Galileo to the scientific method by several hundred years. Roger Bacon was also heavily into science and math, but he did it without alienating people.

Aristotle and Archimedes were close to the method. Some Muslims in Iberia had something essentially the same. However, it wasn't until Galileo that the Scientific Method caught traction.

Why would it invalidate geocentricism? In the geocentric model the moons orbited around Jupiter which in turn revolved around the Earth, they did not see a problem.

Geocentricism was not as simple as "everything revolves around the Earth", it was actually a very complicated model and the moons of Jupiter were evidence against the model. The way it was believed, everything in the sky is situated on celestial spheres which revolved around the earth (orbit doesn't have a meaning until Newton's gravity). The Geocentric model involved a ridiculous number of spheres to account for all of the stars/planets/comets with the comets giving them the biggest problem (in fact it was over a discussion about the comets that lead Galileo to publishing his "Scientific Manifesto", check the RFCE timeline for the right name and year). The moons of Jupiter required a sphere to be centered around Jupiter.

The lack of stellar parallax was a disproof of heliocentricism because a moving Earth would cause an observable stellar parallax therefore heliocentricism was see as flawed.

They had no proof that geocentricism failed and they demanded proof to debunk their long held model, but none came.

The lack of parallax can be explained with: a) Heliocentrism is wrong or b) the stars are so far from us that the effect is very hard to measure. I agree that the second would sound absurd since even modern people have hard time understanding just how large the Universe is. However, even if we assume that the heliocentric system was unsupported, this does not validate the Geocentric even the slightest. Careful measurements of the movements of the comets can very easily disprove the Geocentric system. In the case of two systems failing, the right answer is: "We don't know" and not "Despite the evidence to the contrary, we will stick with what was believed for so long".

Huzzah, someone who know Heliocentricism is wrong!

The spherical nature of the globe was well proven by the birth of Christ.

You seriously know people who think the heliocentric system is actually right? :crazyeye: I should get out of the University more often.

As for the spherical nature of the Earth, almost all large Empires BC knew about it. Greeks even had the radius measured reasonably close. In the 10th century, the Byzantine Emperor know enough math and astronomy to accurately predict the day and hour of a solar eclipse (this is well documented in a letter that he wrote to Simeon of Bulgaria). The question of whether the earth is round or not, never appeared, however, geocentric vs heliocentric demanded a changed in the view on whether the earth is stationary or spinning.

The problem wasn't that Galileo had a proof so broken a 12 year old could show it being broken (srsly, one tide a day?), but rather that he tried to push it as fact. The Jesuits when they got his theory thought "Cool beans bro, this new predictive model is easier to use and totally dope," but Galileo tried pushing that as fact and then tried to dictate theology to theologians...

Isaac Newton and Einstein would have been fine with their theories being used as predictive models, after all, that is exactly what they are.

People bent over backwards to help Galileo including a pope and he acted like an ignorant prick.

Assuming for a moment that Galileo was a psycho prick with beyond loony ideas. Does that justify his imprisonment?

Respect,

3Miro

PS I addressed the points in a mixed order as I thought this is more orderly.
 
Alas, I've been buried under work today so I probably wont be able to respond until Thursday

And yes, people actually believe the heliocentric theory is true
 
"My favorite part was where you said, "Unlike the Inquisition, the Protestants didn't give fair trials."
This may be right up there with suggesting renaming Jerusalem as Palestine... but, in fact, it is even more absurd."-kochman

NO WAY. Its not even CLOSE
 
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