RFC: is diplomacy broken in this mod?

[Ghandi Khan]

I love this map, this scenario and this mod. Great stuff and I can see myself losing many many hours to it playing through as different civilizations, probably replacing my previous favorite scenario- Earth 1000 AD.

However, there are a number of different things I've noticed that seem to be a bit buggy, problematic, or just plain non-sensical.

One that is particularly annoying that I'll mention in this thread is the interaction with AI Civs that just does not make sense or seem to work.

Some Civs are angry with me for trading with certain other Civs. I opened communication with those Civs to cancel any deals I had, but I had none.

I was at war with Russia, beating them pretty soundly. I sued for peace, and got a 10 turn peace treaty out of it. They declared war on me next turn.

After many decades of unremitting war, I finally had a lull in the violence and took advantage of this to sign several defensive pacts. I signed 3, with the Portuguese, Germans and Russians.
The following turn, all 3 were cancelled at the start of the turn for no reason. The Russians became a vassal state of the Vikings, so that made sense, but the other two offered no explanation at all. Since I was trying to increase stability (I'm playing as the Persians and my empire stretches from Morocco to Mongolia and Russia to Ethiopia.. things are a bit shaky) I went ahead and made three more defensive pacts. This time with the English, Portuguese and Germans.
The following turn, all three were again cancelled, and it said that I had declared war on Spain. I had done no such thing. When I heard the war trumpeting at the beginning of the turn I was hoping that I would be at a war with some poor soul with 6 allies on my side (my 3 pact brothers and my 3 vassals)... but no such luck. Or... I was expecting some third party had declared war on one of my Pact brothers and it would at worst be a 5-on-1 thing, but this wasn't so either. Just me and my vassals vs. the Spanish and their two vassals, again completely inexplicably. The Spanish are mad at me for declaring war, but I didn't. WTH?
The next turn, to add insult to injury, the Russians (whom I had just allowed independence to a couple turns earlier after building up their cities and land) also declared war on me along with their Viking masters. Now it's me and my three weak and ineffectual allies vs. 3 major world powers.

These are just a couple examples, stuff like this seems to happen a lot.

Conversely, for whatever reason, it seems like my vassals are more loyal than they ever were in the regular game. I only have 3, and 2 were by capitulation (Ethiopia and Arabia), but the Malinese offered their services to me early on and have never tried to break away like they often did in the 1000 AD scenario.

 

[Mxzs]

Someone would have to look at the save files to say for sure, but here's some unfounded speculation ...

Scommunication with those Civs to cancel any deals I had, but I had none.

I myself am not clear about what kind of trades cause negative modifiers. If it's not because you have a current deal, might it be because you had done some kind of one-off trade (like a tech trade) in the past?

I was at war with Russia, beating them pretty soundly. I sued for peace, and got a 10 turn peace treaty out of it. They declared war on me next turn.

That does seem strange. I was under the impression that peace treaties are unbreakable for 10 turns. I do remember that peace treaties in pre-Civ4 games were very tricky to accomplish because of the way alliances were structured, but I thought Civ4 had fixed all that ...

After many decades of unremitting war, I finally had a lull in the violence and took advantage of this to sign several defensive pacts. I signed 3, with the Portuguese, Germans and Russians.
The following turn, all 3 were cancelled at the start of the turn for no reason.

Did the Portuguese and Germans declare war on someone on the following turn? IIRC, defense pacts are automatically cancelled after one pact member finds itself at war, whether defensively or offensively. If your allies declared war, the pacts would have been cancelled, but you would not have been required to jump into the war (which it sounds like is what happened).

I went ahead and made three more defensive pacts. This time with the English, Portuguese and Germans.
The following turn, all three were again cancelled, and it said that I had declared war on Spain. I had done no such thing.

Check the event log. It sounds like one of your vassals declared war on Spain. That happened to me just last night. I was minding my own (Roman) business and suddenly found that I had declared war on the Khmer and the Indians, because my Spanish vassal had declared war on the former (who was master of the latter). That is one difference between RFC and regular BTS: vassals can exercise an independent foreign policy, which makes having a vassal a somewhat tricky business.

 

[shaunthegreat]

Check the event log. It sounds like one of your vassals declared war on Spain. That happened to me just last night. I was minding my own (Roman) business and suddenly found that I had declared war on the Khmer and the Indians, because my Spanish vassal had declared war on the former (who was master of the latter). That is one difference between RFC and regular BTS: vassals can exercise an independent foreign policy, which makes having a vassal a somewhat tricky business.

well I think that explains why I declared war on carthage. I don't think I like that very much. shouldn't you be able to get rid of your vassal rather than declaring war?

well, now I'm glad all my vassals have been destroyed in my current game. I'm already fighting a war against spain, mongolia, khmer, carthage and the aztecs. glad I sought peace with egypt and arabia when I had the chance.

 

[Whitefire]

RFC expert at your service, here to answer all your questions. Although, I would encourage all questions on RFC to be directed here, since very few of us avid RFC players peruse this sub-forum.

Check the event log. It sounds like one of your vassals declared war on Spain. That happened to me just last night. I was minding my own (Roman) business and suddenly found that I had declared war on the Khmer and the Indians, because my Spanish vassal had declared war on the former (who was master of the latter). That is one difference between RFC and regular BTS: vassals can exercise an independent foreign policy, which makes having a vassal a somewhat tricky business.

Whoa whoa whoa, Rhye did nothing to change that. The reason you were at war with them is because Spain was at war when you vassalized her.

Ghandi, it seems like all your issues are with the core diplomacy engine, and little to do with RFC.

Some Civs are angry with me for trading with certain other Civs. I opened communication with those Civs to cancel any deals I had, but I had none.

Did you trade techs with them? Maps? Did you ever give in to one of their demands? Did you make a demand on them? Any sort of trade of gold, tech, resources, maps or even open borders cause this penalty.

I was at war with Russia, beating them pretty soundly. I sued for peace, and got a 10 turn peace treaty out of it. They declared war on me next turn.

Bugged and fixed in the upcoming patch.

After many decades of unremitting war, I finally had a lull in the violence and took advantage of this to sign several defensive pacts. I signed 3, with the Portuguese, Germans and Russians. The following turn, all 3 were cancelled at the start of the turn for no reason. The Russians became a vassal state of the Vikings, so that made sense, but the other two offered no explanation at all. Since I was trying to increase stability (I'm playing as the Persians and my empire stretches from Morocco to Mongolia and Russia to Ethiopia.. things are a bit shaky) I went ahead and made three more defensive pacts. This time with the English, Portuguese and Germans.
The following turn, all three were again cancelled, and it said that I had declared war on Spain. I had done no such thing. When I heard the war trumpeting at the beginning of the turn I was hoping that I would be at a war with some poor soul with 6 allies on my side (my 3 pact brothers and my 3 vassals)... but no such luck. Or... I was expecting some third party had declared war on one of my Pact brothers and it would at worst be a 5-on-1 thing, but this wasn't so either. Just me and my vassals vs. the Spanish and their two vassals, again completely inexplicably. The Spanish are mad at me for declaring war, but I didn't. WTH?

If a member of a defensive alliance declares war, or has war declared on them, all of the deals are canceled. In the case of being declared upon, you and your allies will all go to war with the aggressor. Also, if Spain was your vassal, did it decide to not be and declared it's independence?

Conversely, for whatever reason, it seems like my vassals are more loyal than they ever were in the regular game. I only have 3, and 2 were by capitulation (Ethiopia and Arabia), but the Malinese offered their services to me early on and have never tried to break away like they often did in the 1000 AD scenario.

Some AI behavior has been tweaked to reflect a more realistic state. Some AIs, especially Montezuma, have been made more cuddly and prone to vassalization. Major nations, while they may capitulate, will almost always declare independence, and war, on you.

 

[Mxzs]

Whoa whoa whoa, Rhye did nothing to change that. The reason you were at war with them is because Spain was at war when you vassalized her.

I'll take your word for it. But then why does one of the start-up screens say that vassals can declare war in RFC? Was that an idea that was going to be implemented but then got dropped?

Moreover, the event log itself told me that Spain (who was my vassal at the time) had declared war on the Khmer. This was not a case of me vassalizing a civ that was in the middle of a war and looking for a big brother. (I've stumbled into that kind of situation enough times to recognize it.) This was a case of a state that had been my vassal for over 500 years suddenly declaring war.

I suppose this could have been a flare up of a war that technically had begun before I vassalized her--she was out shopping in Indonesia, ran into an old enemy, and started walloping him with her handbag--but given the history of the situation, it seems like a long shot:

After Spain and France spawned, I let them do their stuff for a dozen turns (so as to run out the defection clock), then attacked France. I quickly overran Louis, then pivoted and conquered Isabella--I didn't just vassalize her, I destroyed her. A few centuries later, while I was fighting the Dutch, Spain rebelled, and I let her go. Two turns later, she asked to be my vassal. All this occurred before 1500, I'd hazard. (I've since discarded the game saves.)

This means, I'd estimate, that Isabella had no more than 30 turns of full-fledged, non-vassalized independence before I conquered her, during which she could sail around Africa or South America, run into the Khmer, and get into a fight which could then re-erupt centuries later when she re-established contact with them. Against this, there's the fact that there were many turns after I'd vassalized her when she could have blundered into the Khmer (thus restarting the war)--but apparently never did.

But like I said, I will take your word for it that something like this is what happened.

 

[Whitefire]

In the last version of RFC I played (3.03), Vassals could not declare war. If you have a save for us to check, that would be helpful. Otherwise, your anecdote is nothing more than that.

 

[Mxzs]

In the last version of RFC I played (3.03), Vassals could not declare war. If you have a save for us to check, that would be helpful. Otherwise, your anecdote is nothing more than that.

If and when it ever happens again, I will post a save.

In the meantime, instead of sneering at my "anecdote," can you answer some questions?

1. Why does TXT_KEY_HINT_25 (in Rhye's and Fall of Civilization/Assets/XML/Text/CIV4GameText_RFCHints.xml) say: "In Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, vassals can declare war." Is this not true or no longer true? If it was never true (as you seem to imply), what is it doing there? Does it mean something other than what the plain English seems to say?

2. Can you explain the behavior the OP described? He found himself at war, and was told that he had declared war, even though it appears that (a) no one attacked anyone he had a defense pact with; (b) no one attacked one of his vassals; and (c) he did not vassalize a civ that was already at war.

3. Is it possible for an AI civ to be at war with another AI civ but lose contact with that enemy before a peace treaty is signed? If so, what happens when the civs come back into contact with each other? Is war automatically redeclared? If one of those civs has in the meantime become a player's vassal, will the player, all unawares, automatically declare war alongside his vassal? If so, how would this be reported in the game log? Would it be reported as "[Vassal] has declared war on [third civ]," to then be followed by "You have declared war on [third civ]"? Because this is the kind of behavior that befell me—and which sure as hell looks like a case of a vassal declaring war.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

From my experience, the state of war remains. I was playing China and India declared war on me. We lost contact for a while, but when we met up again, we were still at war. Also, Izzie didn't necessarily have to sail all the way to Southeast Asia: she may've bumped into them much earlier, as the Khmer start with galleys and the AI is obsessed with early exploration using whatever ship variety they can get....he's Buddhist, so it is possible her "kill the heathens" mechanism kicked in...

 

[Whitefire]

If and when it ever happens again, I will post a save.

In the meantime, instead of sneering at my "anecdote," can you answer some questions?

1. Why does TXT_KEY_HINT_25 (in Rhye's and Fall of Civilization/Assets/XML/Text/CIV4GameText_RFCHints.xml) say: "In Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, vassals can declare war." Is this not true or no longer true? If it was never true (as you seem to imply), what is it doing there? Does it mean something other than what the plain English seems to say?

2. Can you explain the behavior the OP described? He found himself at war, and was told that he had declared war, even though it appears that (a) no one attacked anyone he had a defense pact with; (b) no one attacked one of his vassals; and (c) he did not vassalize a civ that was already at war.

3. Is it possible for an AI civ to be at war with another AI civ but lose contact with that enemy before a peace treaty is signed? If so, what happens when the civs come back into contact with each other? Is war automatically redeclared? If one of those civs has in the meantime become a player's vassal, will the player, all unawares, automatically declare war alongside his vassal? If so, how would this be reported in the game log? Would it be reported as "[Vassal] has declared war on [third civ]," to then be followed by "You have declared war on [third civ]"? Because this is the kind of behavior that befell me—and which sure as hell looks like a case of a vassal declaring war.

/me shrugs. In 3.03, vassals couldn't even declare on Independents.

 

[Ghandi Khan]

my responses in red

I myself am not clear about what kind of trades cause negative modifiers. If it's not because you have a current deal, might it be because you had done some kind of one-off trade (like a tech trade) in the past?

Possible. Do they still say "stop trading with so-and-so!!" after you've already stopped trading with them?



That does seem strange. I was under the impression that peace treaties are unbreakable for 10 turns. I do remember that peace treaties in pre-Civ4 games were very tricky to accomplish because of the way alliances were structured, but I thought Civ4 had fixed all that ...

I've had this problem again more recently playing as the Americans. I signed a 10-turn peace treaty with the British. 3 turns later, they declared war on me again, and it said "Deal Cancelled" in regards to hte peace treaty



Did the Portuguese and Germans declare war on someone on the following turn? IIRC, defense pacts are automatically cancelled after one pact member finds itself at war, whether defensively or offensively. If your allies declared war, the pacts would have been cancelled, but you would not have been required to jump into the war (which it sounds like is what happened).

Nope. I thought of this. That didn't happen.



Check the event log. It sounds like one of your vassals declared war on Spain. That happened to me just last night. I was minding my own (Roman) business and suddenly found that I had declared war on the Khmer and the Indians, because my Spanish vassal had declared war on the former (who was master of the latter). That is one difference between RFC and regular BTS: vassals can exercise an independent foreign policy, which makes having a vassal a somewhat tricky business.

Vassals can declare war?? That sucks. Maybe that's what happened. Vassals should have to declare their independence from you before declaring war, or at the very least you should have the option of abandoning them should they decide to declare war. They're not supposed to be your masters, that makes no sense. The Spanish were my friends in this game

 

[Ghandi Khan]

If a member of a defensive alliance declares war, or has war declared on them, all of the deals are canceled. In the case of being declared upon, you and your allies will all go to war with the aggressor. Also, if Spain was your vassal, did it decide to not be and declared it's independence?

None of this happened. My defensive pact brothers were not at war with anyone either turn that my deals were cancelled. I expected them to be, since I was at war and hadn't declared war on anyone, but they were not, it was just me, and the computer insisted that I had declared war when I had not.

If one of my vassals declared war on Spain, that makes sense, even though it sucks if this is a change in RFC.

 

[Ghandi Khan]

I've noticed another strange issue recently. Sometimes I cannot give technology to my vassals. This has happened more than once now. Other times I can. Is it impossible to give techs to certain civs that are supposed to remain primitive? The two Civs I've had this problem with were the Ethiopians and the Aztecs. But... I noticed that after the Incas became vassals of the Dutch, it looked as though the Dutch gave them all the tech they needed to catch up with the Europeans. =P

 

[Mxzs]

Vassals can declare war?? That sucks.

Whitefire says they can't declare war. I got argumentative, but I believe him. But as the same thing happened to me as happened to you, I think I'm going to try WorldBuildering a situation and see if I can replicate it.

 

[Whitefire]

None of this happened. My defensive pact brothers were not at war with anyone either turn that my deals were cancelled. I expected them to be, since I was at war and hadn't declared war on anyone, but they were not, it was just me, and the computer insisted that I had declared war when I had not./QUOTE]

Are you sure? You may not have been in contact with a civ.

I've noticed another strange issue recently. Sometimes I cannot give technology to my vassals. This has happened more than once now. Other times I can. Is it impossible to give techs to certain civs that are supposed to remain primitive? The two Civs I've had this problem with were the Ethiopians and the Aztecs. But... I noticed that after the Incas became vassals of the Dutch, it looked as though the Dutch gave them all the tech they needed to catch up with the Europeans. =P

This is a core Civ issue. I've never looked around to see why.

 

[onedreamer]

Whoa whoa whoa, Rhye did nothing to change that. The reason you were at war with them is because Spain was at war when you vassalized her.

Ghandi, it seems like all your issues are with the core diplomacy engine, and little to do with RFC.

Impossible. In BtS, when you vassilize a Civ that is at war, all the wars it is currently having are cancelled (ie peace treaties are signed). You do not declare war to civs your new vassal was at war with when you vassalized it. However, if someone declares war on your vassals (vassals can't declare, but someone CAN declare on THEM), you will declare to that someone. This is probably what happened to Mxzs and he didn't read the event log correctly.

If a member of a defensive alliance declares war, or has war declared on them, all of the deals are canceled.

just specifying here: only defensive pact deals are cancelled.

 

[shaunthegreat]

Impossible. In BtS, when you vassilize a Civ that is at war, all the wars it is currently having are cancelled (ie peace treaties are signed). You do not declare war to civs your new vassal was at war with when you vassalized it. However, if someone declares war on your vassals (vassals can't declare, but someone CAN declare on THEM), you will declare to that someone. This is probably what happened to Mxzs and he didn't read the event log correctly.



just specifying here: only defensive pact deals are cancelled.

If I'm not mistaken, the wars are ended if they capitulate. with a voluntary vassal you declare war on the people they are fighting. I happened to have experienced this last night. Gilgamesh came to me and offered to become my vassal, I accepted, and next thing I know, I declare war on darius, who I had a good relations with. this was a regular bts game, terra.

 

[Zhuge_Liang]

Ya, your not mistaken.