Rising Tide Contact Victory WTF

[aguliondew]

Well finally got around to trying a contact victory built the beacon 45 turn wait no way to reduce the time it takes. I did not think their would be a victory worst than the purity one but 45 turns? Most game I have the victory wonder built by around turn 190 now I have to spend 1/4 of my game time doing nothing. My score is already double that of the 2nd AI. I will get a conquest victory before my contact beacon finishes.

 

[Halcyon 7]

You shorten it by increasing energy gains per turn. If your not heavily tuned for hy energy yields you're not going have a good time with that.

 

[Ryika]

You shorten it by increasing energy gains per turn. If your not heavily tuned for hy energy yields you're not going have a good time with that.

No, this is incorrect. Energy per Turn does not shorten the timer, it's always 45 Turns.

This change was probably made to make up for the fact that Contact and Transcendence (now also 45 turns base, but can be reduced) were the fastest victories pre-RT, but of course increasing the timer of the usually most boring time of the Victory Condition is about the worst balance change that they could make here.

 

[The_Cebador]

On slower speeds it can reach 60 something turns. To avoid other Civs winning, I just conquered the stronger ones and let the weaker live with only his capital (of course, I was in Vostok, that wouldn't work on harder dificulties). It's a heck of a long time though.

 

[Halcyon 7]

Was not aware of this. No update in the civlopedia to reflect this.

 

[Ryika]

Just to be clear: Excess Energy has NEVER sped up the Contact Victory, the only thing that has changed in Rising Tide is that the base timer of 30 turns has been increased to 45 turns - that does of course then scale with Game Speed.

The Entry in the Civilopedia was wrong from the very beginning and probably hints at the design that was planned at first, but it never made it into any release version.

 

[Olodune]

[...] but of course increasing the timer of the usually most boring time of the Victory Condition is about the worst balance change that they could make here.

As I mentioned before: more than 10 turns of mindless waiting is too much, 45 turns of doing absolutely nothing is insane. My HoF is going to show mostly "retired" games unless this gets addressed.

Is the AI supposed to be contending for their own VC during this window? Has anyone seen a come from behind win? Heck, has anyone even seen the AI build a victory structure?

 

[The_Cebador]

In my Epic game (60~ turns wait), the wait was so long that the African Union was in the middle of building the Exodus Gate, thats when I went mental and backstabbed all the AI players in case they pulled a win out of nowhere.

 

[Amrunril]

No, this is incorrect. Energy per Turn does not shorten the timer, it's always 45 Turns.

This change was probably made to make up for the fact that Contact and Transcendence (now also 45 turns base, but can be reduced) were the fastest victories pre-RT, but of course increasing the timer of the usually most boring time of the Victory Condition is about the worst balance change that they could make here.

In addition to being accomplished in just about the least interesting way possible, the change to the Transcendence Victory is a massive overcorrection. Supremacy can win in 20 turns after completing its victory wonder just by sending through default infantry and armor and can get closer to 10 or 15 turns with advanced affinity units (which hybrid affinities make much easier to get). Purity is a bit slower, but can still come in at the 20 turn mark with careful planning and magail construction. Harmony, however, now needs to have 23 13 cities, each one with two expensive buildings constructed, to win 20 turns after completing its victory wonder.

 

[Lucius_]

I honestly feel Rising Tide was an expansion that simply ran out of development time, so we get silly things like 45 turns of waiting as a victory condition. The game is stable for the most part, but beyond that it feels very much like a beta. There are lots of little bugs, war score mechanic feels rushed or incomplete, almost everything is overpowered creating ridiculously short win times. Obviously the devs recognized the short win times, so they increased the contact/harmony victory timers. It feels like a 2 minute bandaid fix for a larger problem. Either the developers ran out of time or are complete idiots. I do not believe they are idiots; I believe they had budgetary/time issues.

The nice thing about Rising Tide, basically every major issue can be fixed up in a patch. Unfortunately, the victory conditions probably won't be one of those things.

 

[Olodune]

In my Epic game (60~ turns wait), the wait was so long that the African Union was in the middle of building the Exodus Gate, thats when I went mental and backstabbed all the AI players in case they pulled a win out of nowhere.

I guess that must be the design intent. Were they actually building the gate though or just "in Progress" according to the Victories screen? I assume the AI needs the required affinity. Unless the AI really cheats, even once complete I doubt they'll settle everyone in the minimum turns ...

In most cases the only real plausible threat to the first builder is a militaristic one - but once you're ahead and can focus 100% on defence ... well, good luck AI.

Can orbital weapons target the gates? I didn't think about that risk.

 

[Ryika]

In addition to being accomplished in just about the least interesting way possible, the change to the Transcendence Victory is a massive overcorrection. Supremacy can win in 20 turns after completing its victory wonder just by sending through default infantry and armor and can get closer to 10 or 15 turns with advanced affinity units (which hybrid affinities make much easier to get). Purity is a bit slower, but can still come in at the 20 turn mark with careful planning and magail construction. Harmony, however, now needs to have 23 cities, each one with two expensive buildings constructed, to win 20 turns after completing its victory wonder.

Well, Harmony had the most efficient tech path pre-Rising Tide which is why in general they were the ones who won the fastest.

Contact is a bit of a silly beast by design because of the RNG-part of the victory ruin that could basically make you win faster than any other victory condition. With now 45 turns it seems to be "somewhat balanced" IF you get the signal-piece from a ruin and probably a lot slower than the rest if you don't.

There was a guy a few days ago who posted a turn 145 Contact Victory, not sure if it was with or without the ruin.

 

[The_Cebador]

I guess that must be the design intent. Were they actually building the gate though or just "in Progress" according to the Victories screen? I assume the AI needs the required affinity. Unless the AI really cheats, even once complete I doubt they'll settle everyone in the minimum turns ...

In most cases the only real plausible threat to the first builder is a militaristic one - but once you're ahead and can focus 100% on defence ... well, good luck AI.

Can orbital weapons target the gates? I didn't think about that risk.

Before declaring war I sent a submarine to scout ahead. When it reached Magan, there was the Exodus Gate, still being built, being smug about my 60 turn wait.

I never thought of orbital bombarding the gates, if it happens to me next game I'll try it.

 

[Maximus_Light]

I really feel like with the victories they need to rework the quests so that they take not just more time or a lot of resources but require you to have command of the planet's, economy, military, or diplomacy. Just having them take time is really boring.

 

[Acken]

In addition to being accomplished in just about the least interesting way possible, the change to the Transcendence Victory is a massive overcorrection. Supremacy can win in 20 turns after completing its victory wonder just by sending through default infantry and armor and can get closer to 10 or 15 turns with advanced affinity units (which hybrid affinities make much easier to get). Purity is a bit slower, but can still come in at the 20 turn mark with careful planning and magail construction. Harmony, however, now needs to have 23 cities, each one with two expensive buildings constructed, to win 20 turns after completing its victory wonder.

Pretty sure if you get both mind stem and xenosanctuary in 23cities you'll reduce transcendance to a turn.

 

[Amrunril]

Pretty sure if you get both mind stem and xenosanctuary in 23cities you'll reduce transcendance to a turn.

You're right. It should be 13 cities or 25 mind stems/xenosanctuaries, and I somehow mixed up the two numbers. 13 cities is slightly more plausible but still far beyond the investment needed to optimize a Supremacy or Purity victory.

 

[Sherlock]

I honestly feel Rising Tide was an expansion that simply ran out of development time, so we get silly things like 45 turns of waiting as a victory condition. The game is stable for the most part, but beyond that it feels very much like a beta. There are lots of little bugs, war score mechanic feels rushed or incomplete, almost everything is overpowered creating ridiculously short win times. Obviously the devs recognized the short win times, so they increased the contact/harmony victory timers. It feels like a 2 minute bandaid fix for a larger problem. Either the developers ran out of time or are complete idiots. I do not believe they are idiots; I believe they had budgetary/time issues.

The nice thing about Rising Tide, basically every major issue can be fixed up in a patch. Unfortunately, the victory conditions probably won't be one of those things.

This is the most helpful post I've read in this forum maybe ever.

Thanks. I think you hit the nail on the head here.

 

[gunnergoz]

Given all the bellyaching from hardcore gamers (much of it justified, mind you) which we know the developers do read or hear about, I'll be sort of surprised if there is any further expansion of or DLC for CivBE after RT.

Of course, the opposing argument is that the corporate types look at sales potential when deciding whether to commit resources to fund a project, and most of the people who buy these games never show up in the forums where the hardcore types get together to pick games to pieces.

 

[Emptiness]

This is what I did while waiting for my contact victory:

Spoiler :

When I saw the long timer, I had the notion to race the other victory conditions against contact. I didn't think about it too much, or I would have just gone after emancipation, and it would have finished first. As it was I started off at something like 6 affinity for supremacy and I built the Mind Flower and Exodus Gate before I built the Emancipation Gate...and at the end I was only four turns away from emancipation victory.

While I appreciate having time to build an army to go assault an enemy Beacon, I do think that maybe 45 turns is too long. Either a lower base time or some way to shorten the timer would probably be an improvement.

 

[Miravlix]

They need to simply change "waiting" victories to fx. build up X energy in reserve and then push the button to win, then it's at least a little more "active" and you keep having to avoid the temptation of using the cash.

It's 135 turns on Marathon.