RNG combat. Can anything be done about it?

[Leoreth]

How ironic.

(I'm not even going to bother to change your mind, it's like debating items vs no items in Smash. Both sides have completely different opinions on what makes something fair)

Leoreth, it has come to my attention that you did not notice that my misquote was made in jest to emphasize the pointlessness of your misquote and how it would not contribute to a healthy discussion. My post was made to ask that we end the conversation, or at the very least not mischaracterize each other in the way that you had. I am sorry we could not come to a satisfactory agreement, but hope that this misunderstanding will not negatively impact our future interactions.

Well you did not remove the misquote like I asked you to so you can kindly screw off.

 

[1SDANi]

Well you did not remove the misquote like I asked you to so you can kindly screw off.

You didn't remove your misquote either, so I guess we're even.

PS My misquote has been gone for a while, please do not lie.

 

[Leoreth]

You still have a fake quote tag up. Also I never quoted you anywhere before that, so

But I guess you don't care so I might as well act accordingly.

 

[1SDANi]

You still have a fake quote tag up. Also I never quoted you anywhere before that, so

Stop. Just. Stop.

You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[merijn_v1]

How 1 small mistake in Enyavar's post can spark such fight for nothing.

(I do NOT blame him for this small mistake)

 

[Enyavar]

Ohmygosh. It's full of flames!

Me (Enyavar!) I'm an unrepentant, saveloading micromanager. I accept the random numbers, but I don't lose fights at 90% odds - I rather fight elsewhere or don't fight if the RNG decides I loose.

Well, that statement was a bit overdramatic, but I stand by it. And I understand 1SDAN's fury for being blamed for it, because it is an extreme position.

Sure, I would fully support the idea of "Pyrrhic Withdrawal", but I don't need the system changed that desperately. It's fine.

Edit
Also, what calad said in the last post of the first page:

Problem with RNG and instadeath is you will never attach GG on unit (expect one supermedic) because losing level 7 unit on 90% probability is just infuriating. It is total victory or total defeat, nothing between these two. This is why no other game is like civ4 because it is a bad design, winner takes all always is an awful concept.

This is especially problem when you have very tight UHV deadline, you simply dont have production make more units or to move them. Instead of you have to attack, if you fail you reload and try to manipulate RNG to favouring you. This is my least favourite part of this modmod: constant reloading and I know everybody does that all the time.

And you know standard deviation of a random distribution is an awful argument if you have only 50 turns out of 500. First 25 turns you are unlucky and lose all of your units, now too bad they were starting units and you dont have production and time to make more troops and you lose automagically not because your play style sucks but because of standard deviation of a random distribution. This is how flawed your argument is.

Now, it is not that there are no options. You just refuse to even look at them. Vanilla game has withdrawal % on horses, why this cant be expanded? There are mods that gives flanking bonus, this could be expanded as well. I also assume there are mods that give penalties having too many units on same tile, this could be expanded against stacks of doom.

That is the reason for my saveloading: If I don't manage a perfect micromanaged playthrough, I lose badly. That is what I learned in many hours of playing this game (BtS, RI, RfC, DoC,...).
Heck, I lost in my Kongo game even when I DID play perfectly and had eight catholic cities with 3-8 population each and I didn't get 15% of world catholics - just because the other civs decided to spam catholic missionaries in their cities right at that important time.
Not to mention playing as Egypt, Rome or Babylon in DoC, where I lose all the time as well, even as Heir.

(Of course, this was already the case in original RfC: Some scenarios like Ethiopia were hard as hell, and to win, I needed specific strategy tips from the available guides. Stuff that I have to find out for myself in DoC.)

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Also I never quoted you anywhere before that, so

Jesus F. Christ, Leoreth, you are really not at your best today.

Sounds like you are ruining your own fun, not the game.

In this post you wrongly quoted a statement made by envyar as if it originated from 1SDAN.

There are mods that gives flanking bonus, this could be expanded as well. I also assume there are mods that give penalties having too many units on same tile, this could be expanded against stacks of doom.

What and where are these mods? I have been looking for them forever and even failed at trying to program my own penalty system for stacking too many units. The only one I know of is Realism Invictus, but that system is really really complicated and heavy handed.

 

[Leoreth]

In this post you wrongly quoted a statement made by envyar as if it originated from 1SDAN.

Oh, that explains a lot. Not sure how that happened, but I remember trying to reply to enyavar and 1SDAN in that post an having them both quoted, I think I wanted to keep both quotes in but apparently I decided to only reply to one and messed up deleting it. Sorry for the confusion, but that could have been made a little more clear. I will correct the quote.

 

[merijn_v1]

In this post you wrongly quoted a statement made by envyar as if it originated from 1SDAN.

That was a result of some erroneously place [/QUOTE] tags in the post of 1SDAN, which originated in the post of Enyavar which 1SDAN quoted. At the time Leoreth quoted the post of 1SDAN, the part Leoreth quoted was not in a quote box as a result of that. I can fully understand why Leoreth thought that line came from 1SDAN.

 

[Leoreth]

I checked the post history (it has since been edited to be more clear), and that's what happened. So I made no mistake when trying to quote enyavar and 1SDAN, and it was the post itself that was misleading.

Considering they edited the post already they should have been aware of what had happened, so acting like it was a deliberate act of malice on my part is pretty rich.

 

[Enyavar]

What and where are these mods? I have been looking for them forever and even failed at trying to program my own penalty system for stacking too many units. The only one I know of is Realism Invictus, but that system is really really complicated and heavy handed.

That stacking system is what I loved most in RI. If you ever manage to copy it into your modmodmod, I want to play that, Knoedel!
(Eventually, I want to play it anyways, having read about your extensive modifications. Which is the most stable version? And is the 1.15 tech tree in that one already? That tree is wonderful and great, but also detrimental for many UHVs of the current DoC. I don't know if I hate or love the tree.)

Edit:

I checked the post history (it has since been edited to be more clear), and that's what happened. So I made no mistake when trying to quote enyavar and 1SDAN, and it was the post itself that was misleading.

Considering they edited the post already they should have been aware of what had happened, so acting like it was a deliberate act of malice on my part is pretty rich.

All I did "wrong" was wrap three successive quotes (Leo, Knoedel, Leo) in one single quote tag, and then forgot to remove one [/QUOTE] tag. Then this post got quoted and the missing tag threatened to destroy 1SDANs reputation...
It was really just a tiny error, and I corrected it this afternoon (~ one hour ago), as soon as I notice the flame war which was already on page two.

I think 1SDAN at first didn't recognize my post and thought Leoreth had constructed a totally new strawman statement to burn him, leading him to formulate this one. Let's just call this a ginormous misunderstanding, please.

 

[1SDANi]

Well this was a comedy of errors.

I'm not even sure if anyone's at fault, the entire argument was born from everyone making a mistake.

Wanna blame HTML?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Uff, entertaining as it was, can we please just leave this drama behind us for good?

That stacking system is what I loved most in RI. If you ever manage to copy it into your modmodmod, I want to play that, Knoedel!
(Eventually, I want to play it anyways, having read about your extensive modifications. Which is the most stable version? And is the 1.15 tech tree in that one already? That tree is wonderful and great, but also detrimental for many UHVs of the current DoC. I don't know if I hate or love the tree.)

Now that is one thing I promise will probably never happen. Sorry, but I just find RI's system too unwieldy and complicated. Ideally I would like to just add a flanking bonus and a combat penalty that increases the more units share a tile up to a certain maximum value.
At any rate, my modmod has been inactive and out of development for almost a year now because real life decided to take me on a long wild ride I am still on to this day. The most recent version still has the old tech tree but I can't say how stable or balanced it is.

 

[Tigranes]

Because randomness is no fun.

During World War II Fritz Klingenberg, leading a reconnitoring patrol into Belgrade, sneaked into the city through enemy lines with just 6 men. The Yugoslav Army had thousands of men stationed in the capital, having retreated to the city from the countryside in order to make a defence against the invading German army. After a number of firefights with Yugoslav troops, Klingenberg made his way to the centre of the city. Using captured trucks, and parading captured Yugoslav troops, he presented himself to the Mayor, pretending to be a larger force. The Mayor surrendered to his forces, at which point Klingenberg gathered a number of German flags from the embassy and ran them up various flagpoles in the city. The Yugoslav troops gave up, believing that there had been a general surrender. Shortly, another smaller force of 15 Germans came into the city, and started also pretending to be a larger group, by driving captured vehicles repeatedly around the city so as to appear to be greater in number. Some time later, the actual German Army arrived at the outskirts of the city, expecting to have to fight their way into the city (which had a substantial troop presence), they for a while refused to believe the city had been captured by Klingenberg. Belgrade was then fully occupied by the German Army later the same month and Belgrade became the seat of the puppet Nedić regime, headed by General Milan Nedić. Klingenberg was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross for the capture of the city.

 

[Leoreth]

Well to be fair, that really wasn't very fun for the Serbians.

 

[1SDANi]

During World War II Fritz Klingenberg, leading a reconnitoring patrol into Belgrade, sneaked into the city through enemy lines with just 6 men. The Yugoslav Army had thousands of men stationed in the capital, having retreated to the city from the countryside in order to make a defence against the invading German army. After a number of firefights with Yugoslav troops, Klingenberg made his way to the centre of the city. Using captured trucks, and parading captured Yugoslav troops, he presented himself to the Mayor, pretending to be a larger force. The Mayor surrendered to his forces, at which point Klingenberg gathered a number of German flags from the embassy and ran them up various flagpoles in the city. The Yugoslav troops gave up, believing that there had been a general surrender. Shortly, another smaller force of 15 Germans came into the city, and started also pretending to be a larger group, by driving captured vehicles repeatedly around the city so as to appear to be greater in number. Some time later, the actual German Army arrived at the outskirts of the city, expecting to have to fight their way into the city (which had a substantial troop presence), they for a while refused to believe the city had been captured by Klingenberg. Belgrade was then fully occupied by the German Army later the same month and Belgrade became the seat of the puppet Nedić regime, headed by General Milan Nedić. Klingenberg was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross for the capture of the city.

I'm fine with adding option abilities or units that have randomness, I just don't like it when the base combat is based on RNG. I'd perfectly be fine with something like Great General units a "Gambit" promotion.

 

[Tigranes]

I'm fine with adding option abilities or units that have randomness, I just don't like it when the base combat is based on RNG. I'd perfectly be fine with something like Great General units a "Gambit" promotion.

There is something all you never-90% fail to recognize: it goes both ways! When my last super red unit captures a city with 10% odds, I rename him Hero. That's what rng is -- hero simulator. The few. But proud. And yes , those heroes can sometimes be your opponent's heroes or even SS Nazi. Serbs did not reload and get Belgrade back in real life, did they?

 

[1SDANi]

There is something all you never-90% fail to recognize: it goes both ways! When my last super red unit captures a city with 10% odds

What? I hate winning on low odds FAR more than losing on low odds. It feels cheap, like I'm cheating, equal to worldbuildering my unit to full health and my opponent to near zero.

I like to feel like I deserve to win or deserve to lose. This isn't about making the game easier, this is about making the game more rewarding.

Gambling is not rewarding, it's surprising. One requires skill, the other luck.

 

[Logoncal]

Well most of your replies have been just one line baiting and opinions without any explanation, so why do you get upset?

Problem with RNG and instadeath is you will never attach GG on unit (expect one supermedic) because losing level 7 unit on 90% probability is just infuriating. It is total victory or total defeat, nothing between these two. This is why no other game is like civ4 because it is a bad design, winner takes all always is an awful concept.

This is especially problem when you have very tight UHV deadline, you simply dont have production make more units or to move them. Instead of you have to attack, if you fail you reload and try to manipulate RNG to favouring you. This is my least favourite part of this modmod: constant reloading and I know everybody does that all the time.

And you know standard deviation of a random distribution is an awful argument if you have only 50 turns out of 500. First 25 turns you are unlucky and lose all of your units, now too bad they were starting units and you dont have production and time to make more troops and you lose automagically not because your play style sucks but because of standard deviation of a random distribution. This is how flawed your argument is.

Now, it is not that there are no options. You just refuse to even look at them. Vanilla game has withdrawal % on horses, why this cant be expanded? There are mods that gives flanking bonus, this could be expanded as well. I also assume there are mods that give penalties having too many units on same tile, this could be expanded against stacks of doom.

C2C has surround and destroy and RI has logistics mechanic. Too much units and they start to lose strength.

 

[cmakk1012]

I’m a micromanager too, changing attack order and so on in reloads as opposed to straight changing odds, though.

C2C has surround and destroy and RI has logistics mechanic. Too much units and they start to lose strength.

PAE has some sort of logistics system too, where having too many troops makes them start to lose health.