TheOverseer's comments here and elsewhere strike me as strange. The variant seems fine as it is, but this seems to encourage tactics you wouldn't desire to use in a more regular conquest/warmonger game (VMXA has an example above actually)... and thinking you can transfer tactics from one to the other all too easily doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me. Thanks for the offer, but I'll decline.
Rod02- Planning and Discussion
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Rodent
Carnage
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Firstly, Welcome Dwetzel and Kulko to the team. Drinks are over there in the corner 
. I think that Peebo has disappeared so I would love you on the team as well vmxa.
I think Overseer and I tested this on a Huge map and it lead to a goodly crowded map, but with scope to move just a little. I think we should try this on huge first for the extra challenge.
Using 30 shields on a horse in a game where we will be a bit short on units (trust me) sounds dubious to me, especially since we can get a legion for the same cost. Catapults, probably can be used, but early on i believe we need to make only legions to defend against the initial rush that only intensifies.
. I think that Peebo has disappeared so I would love you on the team as well vmxa. I think Overseer and I tested this on a Huge map and it lead to a goodly crowded map, but with scope to move just a little. I think we should try this on huge first for the extra challenge.
Using 30 shields on a horse in a game where we will be a bit short on units (trust me) sounds dubious to me, especially since we can get a legion for the same cost. Catapults, probably can be used, but early on i believe we need to make only legions to defend against the initial rush that only intensifies.
I think Cats save losses and are more than worth their shields if build in an appropriate number. Of course they main bulk must be legions because we also need the sheer numbers, but 20 - 30% cats (and a small number of Horsies) are worth their money.
I generated a map to see how crowded it looked. This was just one map, but the spot I saw first had 3 start location adjacent to each other, wow. BTW I saw a thread that talked about no starts with hill or jungle and I nearly posted I had seen them on mountains, well this one had one on a mountain.
One other site had three locations with one space between them. There were a few start locations that had some room. If you draw a start with three on top of you, it could be interesting.
The thing about cats and even horses is that you will be a long time getting those techs. You pretty much have to shoot straight for IW and then head to Lit. Having the GLB may not do any good here at this level with such a crowed map.
Normally you want to have it so you can run zero research to pay for the support and deficit research later. Here you may not be able to run zero research as the tech pace is probably going to be very slow.
If you determine GLB is not viable, then you still have to consider Pottery after IW. It could be a good thing to have one or two civs right on top of you, if you have a hill start. You could get an archer out quick and kill them off, with a little luck. Bad luck they get a warrior out and kill you.
One other site had three locations with one space between them. There were a few start locations that had some room. If you draw a start with three on top of you, it could be interesting.
The thing about cats and even horses is that you will be a long time getting those techs. You pretty much have to shoot straight for IW and then head to Lit. Having the GLB may not do any good here at this level with such a crowed map.
Normally you want to have it so you can run zero research to pay for the support and deficit research later. Here you may not be able to run zero research as the tech pace is probably going to be very slow.
If you determine GLB is not viable, then you still have to consider Pottery after IW. It could be a good thing to have one or two civs right on top of you, if you have a hill start. You could get an archer out quick and kill them off, with a little luck. Bad luck they get a warrior out and kill you.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
My "strange" comments come from other AW games run by the master of AW, TheRat. We have learned many things in that series about what works and what doesn't. Many times, pinging an enemy unit with a catapult is enough to have that unit retreat to heal. This makes Catapults very useful to AW. As far as Horsemen go, a few might make the difference between winning and losing as the enemies pile up and leaving a wounded Legion out to die adds up, turn after turn. I think you can discount my advice and maybe still win, but I'm telling you from my test game, the pressure mounts fast. If we don't play with all tools available, we will get overrun. In my game, a bad string of RnG ended with losing Rome and for all intents and purposes, it was over. I tried the "all Legions" approach and lost. Go ahead, try the save I posted in the other thread. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, and you'll find it a cakewalk. But I'm betting it won't be.
It is for sure cats will be useful. That is not even up for debate. The only issue is how soon you can get them and use them. Horses are not worthless, they just have to be used sparingly and in the right places.
Again you will want some, but it tends to be hard to squeeze in those units, while you are sweating out attacks. Now in this game, you may be better able to use them as the last game I played with Rome was AWDG.
Cats OTOH are critical and you want as many as you can afford. The big thing is kill ratio and anything that helps on that is golden.
The next big thing is to expand and that is best done with armies and Legions are nice as they have the 3 defense. This makes them very safe for most of the game.
Again you will want some, but it tends to be hard to squeeze in those units, while you are sweating out attacks. Now in this game, you may be better able to use them as the last game I played with Rome was AWDG.
Cats OTOH are critical and you want as many as you can afford. The big thing is kill ratio and anything that helps on that is golden.
The next big thing is to expand and that is best done with armies and Legions are nice as they have the 3 defense. This makes them very safe for most of the game.
What are the exact AW rules you are using?
I assume declare on contact and no peace at all. But what about Trading on the firs turn.
As for Cats, I am not so negative about our tech abilities. IW then Glib sounds fin,but that means we will have Horses and Cats available as soon as we build the GLib.
Has there been any discussion about the other settings?
I assume declare on contact and no peace at all. But what about Trading on the firs turn.
As for Cats, I am not so negative about our tech abilities. IW then Glib sounds fin,but that means we will have Horses and Cats available as soon as we build the GLib.
Has there been any discussion about the other settings?
It is not "our" teching that will be the problem, its the AI. They will not do well. Regent level civs are weak anyway and with so little land for each, they will stink. You add in being at war all the time and you cannot afford to wait for them to give you techs via the GLB.
You will be slow as well for some time as you will not have much land, till you take it. You will be spending most of your money on support. The tech cost factor is 400 iirc for a huge map.
BW cost 120 and IW 240. IW is nearly twice the cost as a std map. You will not be faster researching on a huge than a std. IOW with say 4 towns, you will be making the same beakers on a std map as you will on a huge, but will need almost twice as many to learn the tech. I am quite sure that will slow you down. I have played many of these games, but on higher levels.
You will be slow as well for some time as you will not have much land, till you take it. You will be spending most of your money on support. The tech cost factor is 400 iirc for a huge map.
BW cost 120 and IW 240. IW is nearly twice the cost as a std map. You will not be faster researching on a huge than a std. IOW with say 4 towns, you will be making the same beakers on a std map as you will on a huge, but will need almost twice as many to learn the tech. I am quite sure that will slow you down. I have played many of these games, but on higher levels.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
I'm more curious than upset about what comments were strange, Spoonwood. I don't hold myself to be an expert on anything, but I think I've picked up a bit here and there. I would like to see us win this, and my advice was pretty decent, I think. Why don't you send me a PM and we can discuss this? If there was one thing I learned from various run-ins here and in other forums, it's to not take umbrage over intended and unintended slights and to always keep it civil. So no harm done, right?
When the AI is as slow as we think we are on the other hand in no hurry to get the GLib fast.
But I must say I find the whole situation quite hypothetical. We all agree that Legions are the mainstay, and Cats and Horses are valuable additions as soon as we find the techs.
We may be faster or slower, the AI maybe faster and slower, but that depends on so many things like the map layout, the timing when we get contacts, the shape of the landform and soon. This is a lot easier to discuss when we see the game so lets wait until then.
But I must say I find the whole situation quite hypothetical. We all agree that Legions are the mainstay, and Cats and Horses are valuable additions as soon as we find the techs.
We may be faster or slower, the AI maybe faster and slower, but that depends on so many things like the map layout, the timing when we get contacts, the shape of the landform and soon. This is a lot easier to discuss when we see the game so lets wait until then.
Rodent
Carnage
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Kulko said:
Trade allowed on contact, then declare war on the same turn.
Kulko said:
I believe that these will be the settings-
AW as Rome
Huge map
60% Water
3 Billion
all Victories enabled, but we want only Conquest.
Regarding Tech questions, I have played several games on these settings and AI research does indeed suck, but our research isn't going to be all that good until we can get some real estate up.
I never said that Catapults or horses are a no-no, Indeed as the team has indicated, They are both to be used, But we obviously need a very high shield start (15 spt without developing all tiles early on) to even survive.
How about we reduce the tech costs to Standard map levels? It will add an extra level of challenge.
Two setting not mentioned
1) barbs
2) land
barbs won't matter, but huts could be a problem. Having them get lots of AA techs right off the bat may be trouble some. Land not an issue as long as it is not islands.
Edit: a few map gens seems to favor continents for even distribution. The large landmass get more strange start locations. I guess it is due to having some island to put nations on and not having them all on one mass. It was just a few runs, so may not mean any thing.
1) barbs
2) land
barbs won't matter, but huts could be a problem. Having them get lots of AA techs right off the bat may be trouble some. Land not an issue as long as it is not islands.
Edit: a few map gens seems to favor continents for even distribution. The large landmass get more strange start locations. I guess it is due to having some island to put nations on and not having them all on one mass. It was just a few runs, so may not mean any thing.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
I say no barbarians, since the AI benefits more from goody huts and we won't be exploring hardly at all. Land should be Pangaea, hopefully with very few islands. Don't want to attack too many island nations. As far as tech costs, they might be better as expensive, since the AI can and will trade like a maniac while we have to research most of ours.
What about generation of the map? You can either make a BIQ to use 31 nations or have someone make a map using the editor. Y
You would need a non player ideally to make one via the editor, but using a BIQ anyone can crank one out.
You would need a non player ideally to make one via the editor, but using a BIQ anyone can crank one out.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
I have a .BIQ that cranked out my test map, it had nice resource distribution and reasonably spaced starts. I could upload it and someone interested but not playing could run a few starts for us. I think we have to have Iron, withou it we'd definitely lose. Here it is: just needs put in the Conquests/Conquests directory.
Edit: I don't know where my .biq went, I uploaded it but it didn't show up. I guess it isnt a file-type that the upload format handles. I have zipped it and re-uploaded it. Hopefully this time it works.
Edit: I don't know where my .biq went, I uploaded it but it didn't show up. I guess it isnt a file-type that the upload format handles. I have zipped it and re-uploaded it. Hopefully this time it works.
I don't see the BIQ. You should be able to generate start just like normal, so anyone in the game could do that. (Edit: I talking about if you have a modified BIQ). You only need a non player, if you want the use the editor to make the map and ensure iron is available.
One of the big issues I noticed in my starts was that getting a river or iron was not likely. Could be just a bit of bad luck. I looked all over the maps and did not even see any starts that did.
One of the big issues I noticed in my starts was that getting a river or iron was not likely. Could be just a bit of bad luck. I looked all over the maps and did not even see any starts that did.
@vmxa And how do I add 31 civs to a normal game start? I only get the option to add 15. I think thats what you need the biq or the editor for.
@overseer Can you post the biq for tests? neven if we don't use it in the end
I also agree on no barbs. continents or pangea is basically a question of how hard we want it to be.
I would prefer if somebody prepares us a checked pangea (continuous landmass, Iron start, not too central?)
@overseer Can you post the biq for tests? neven if we don't use it in the end
I also agree on no barbs. continents or pangea is basically a question of how hard we want it to be.
I would prefer if somebody prepares us a checked pangea (continuous landmass, Iron start, not too central?)
Sorry I was not clear. That line was in reference to having the modified BIQ for 31 players. I mean that if you had the BIQ like Overseer had used, you could make maps normally.
IF you have the default BIQ, you cannot get 31 civs in a game, you have to use the editor in that case. A bad habit I have to writing as if what I was thinking was known, so I end up leaving out clarification items. The Boss lady is always looking at me and wondering how she could know what I was talking about as I forgot to tell her the page I was on.
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