In response to Romans in China: It is very doubtful. Romans were very adventurous and brave but had little motive to travel all the way to China- I guess possibly a territory of China, but not in any way China. The Romans had trade routes throughout eastern Asia but they never directly went to China.
Romans in China
- Thread starter ZultanofZex
- Start date
The proposed Romans in China didn't travel there willingly - they're captured prisoners of war who were transferred further eastwards by the Parthians, then the Huns, finally to China.
Though essentially the statement is correct IMO. During the time of the Byzantines (Justinian I think), Byzantinian priests or monks did make official journeys to China (they stole the secret of silk-making and brought it back to Constantinople). I also know the Byzantines kept diplomatic contact with Tang China. Since the Byzantines considered themselves to be Romans, well there're Romans in China at one time!
Those Roman traders were not official representatives of the Roman political entity - they're traders, private citizens, taking advantage of China's tributary system to acquire Chinese goods (cheaply).
I know of no Chinese army ever sent that far west. The only times when Chinese armies penetrated furthest westwards were during the Later Han when the general Ban Zhao was manoevuring the Central Asians around as proxies for the Chinese, and during the first half of the Tang, when Tang armies were on the prowl in Central Asia.
For the Chinese, 'Rome' (Ta Ch'in) also seemed to encompass the Byzantines, so it might be the Byzantines you're referring to.
XIII said:I know of no Chinese army ever sent that far west. The only times when Chinese armies penetrated furthest westwards were during the Later Han when the general Ban Zhao was manoevuring the Central Asians around as proxies for the Chinese, and during the first half of the Tang, when Tang armies were on the prowl in Central Asia.
For the Chinese, 'Rome' (Ta Ch'in) also seemed to encompass the Byzantines, so it might be the Byzantines you're referring to.
concidering that even at its height, the Byzantine eastern frontire was recceeded from the old Roman border, and the fact that China was noy stupid enough to try to send an army across the known world when several large states, who would of course highlly resetn anyone moving an army through thier land ar ein the way. then you get to that whole natural barrier thing with deserts, and seas, and mountians, and so on...
XIII said:
i read this too, that while ban zhao was subjicating the small kingdoms on the fring on the han, he receiced orders to conquer rome too, till the pathians and others told him it wasn't some small kingdom to be overrun. this was in the first year of trajan's reign, later trajan would push romes boundaries to within 5 days of were ban zhao stopped. mite of been interesting if the han had stayed there
See also this old thing, still online:
Romans in China?
http://www.he.net/~archaeol/9905/newsbriefs/china.html
Romans in China?
http://www.he.net/~archaeol/9905/newsbriefs/china.html
I believe that the Chinese also sent an ambassador by sea, who wound up in Mesopotamia (pre- or post-Roman, I don't remember), and returned after a time to the Han court with his report which is preserved.ZultanofZex said:
That's fascinating, since the orangutan wasn't rediscovered until, hmm, sometime in the past couple of centuries I think. The Romans went far afield to get critters for their games, including elephants from India and Africa, and a now-extinct African bear from the upper Nile somewhere.
Cashie
King
I think its entirely plausible that Roman captives did settle in Chinese land after capture by the Parthians. The Romans did attempt Parthian (and Sassanian) invasions on several occaisons; Crassus, Antony (copped a flogging, twice), Trajan (who actually won), to name but a few. The Emporer Valentinian was also captured by the Sassanians in 375.
I don't think any characteristics such as coloured eyes or hair mean anything about the enthicity of the Soldiers. Having red, blonde or brown hair was not particularly uncommon Romans. Names such as Rufus (red), Albinus (white) & Flavus (yellow); denoting a person's colouration were far more common than Niger (black of hair and eye). Caesar himself was described as being "fair". So that need not be a worrying factor.
Apparently Crassus also had some Gallic (sent over by Caesar) and Galatian [Celts settled in Anatolia] mercenaries serving as cavalry (all Roman cavalry was "auxiliary" ie mercenaries by this stage).
I don't think any characteristics such as coloured eyes or hair mean anything about the enthicity of the Soldiers. Having red, blonde or brown hair was not particularly uncommon Romans. Names such as Rufus (red), Albinus (white) & Flavus (yellow); denoting a person's colouration were far more common than Niger (black of hair and eye). Caesar himself was described as being "fair". So that need not be a worrying factor.
Apparently Crassus also had some Gallic (sent over by Caesar) and Galatian [Celts settled in Anatolia] mercenaries serving as cavalry (all Roman cavalry was "auxiliary" ie mercenaries by this stage).
Indeed. Xinjiang even had its own band of Indo-European settlers who survived until just before the Han Chinese conquest and occupation of the region.Cashie said:
Then there're the Indo-European tribes (Yueh-Chih) reportedly driven westwards by the Xiongnu; the people whom Zhang Qian was supposed to contact in his mission to secure an alliance abroad.
It's not inconceivable that some still survived and lived in the area until the era of the Chinese occupation.
Combat Ingrid
Spy Unit
XIII said:
I read somewhere about the mummies in Xinjian. Someone had made genetic tests on a few of them and concluded that compared to modern people, they were most similar to Swedes, Finns, and Sicilians. Also, their clothes were similar to Celtic style, IIRC. It was proposed these people came from central Europe after learning to ride (a few thousand years BC, I guess), so they could cross the vast plains between Europe and Xinjian. If this was really the case, it would be interesting to know why they made such a long journey.
This story also told about the political difficulties in investigating these mummies. It said as both the Chinese government and the Uighur people (natives of Xinjian) claim that this area has been their land for thousands of years, none of them were interested to let the archaeologists take DNA samples that may prove that it was actually Europeans who lived there first. So apparently they had to smuggle out the few samples they could get.
I'm sure the Evil Swedish-Finnish-Sicilian coalition will now claim Xinjian as our traditional territory
I'm sorry but I don't have the link to this story. It was a long time ago and I forgot to bookmark it...
My understanding is that they didn't come fr central Europe. They were a branch who orginated direct fr the Indo-European 'homeland' which ended up moving eastwards. Other branches ended up elsewhere, incl the one in central Europe.Combat Ingrid said:
And I'm not sure if they rode eastwards. Seemed like this group left, before the Indo-Europeans learned horse-riding. But I might be wrong - it has been some time...
The Chinese allowed a few Western visitors and archaelogists to visit, but were accompanied by govt agents. There're only 'supervised' digs.
IIRC a few Chinese archaelogists were digging, but the govt was reluctant to encourage it...
Cashie
King
From what I remember, a lot of the Germanic tribes that migrated into Europe from about 300 AD onwards were originally based a fair whack further east. Admittedly the Goths were thought to have come from the Baltic, but a lot of Gernmanic peoples resided in far eastern Europe and some in western asia, and were pushed westward by peoples such as the Huns. Eventually putting the nails in the Roman coffins and establishing the European nations that we (mostly) recognise today.
Apparently pockets of caucasian [caucasiod] peoples are dotted all over world, there are even small groups located in parts of Japan, if I recall.
Apparently pockets of caucasian [caucasiod] peoples are dotted all over world, there are even small groups located in parts of Japan, if I recall.
NP300
Prince
XIII said:I know of no Chinese army ever sent that far west. The only times when Chinese armies penetrated furthest westwards were during the Later Han when the general Ban Zhao was manoevuring the Central Asians around as proxies for the Chinese, and during the first half of the Tang, when Tang armies were on the prowl in Central Asia.
For the Chinese, 'Rome' (Ta Ch'in) also seemed to encompass the Byzantines, so it might be the Byzantines you're referring to.
My understanding is that when the Chinese were maneuvering in Central Asia one of their armies met a Roman legion. Apparently, all along they were trying to get together to fight their common Persian enemy, with little success.
NP300
Prince
Combat Ingrid said:I read somewhere about the mummies in Xinjian. Someone had made genetic tests on a few of them and concluded that compared to modern people, they were most similar to Swedes, Finns, and Sicilians. Also, their clothes were similar to Celtic style, IIRC. It was proposed these people came from central Europe after learning to ride (a few thousand years BC, I guess), so they could cross the vast plains between Europe and Xinjian. If this was really the case, it would be interesting to know why they made such a long journey.
This story also told about the political difficulties in investigating these mummies. It said as both the Chinese government and the Uighur people (natives of Xinjian) claim that this area has been their land for thousands of years, none of them were interested to let the archaeologists take DNA samples that may prove that it was actually Europeans who lived there first. So apparently they had to smuggle out the few samples they could get.
I'm sure the Evil Swedish-Finnish-Sicilian coalition will now claim Xinjian as our traditional territory
I'm sorry but I don't have the link to this story. It was a long time ago and I forgot to bookmark it...
Yes, there was a group of Aryans that settled in what is now Xinjiang. They were called the Tocharians. They spoke the Tocharian branch of the Indo-Eruopean(Aryan) language family. The Aryans originated in Ukraine and Southern Russia and from there conquered western Europe, India and evidently Xinjiang. This was around 2000BC and it seems the reason for their conquests is because they were the first people to master horseback riding.
Anyway, the Tocharian people were over-run by Turks and now the Tocharian language is dead. But their Caucasoid physical characteristics can still be seen in the people of the region. I have also heard the story of a Roman legion being ordered by the emperor to march till the ends of the Earth ending up in Xinjiang and marrying local women.
I believe if you or I were too look at the Ainu (the people in Japan) we would think they were mostly Japanese. They aren't exactly caucasian but certainly different from the Japanese.Cashie said:
The lighter skinned people in Pakistan and India (not sure if there are any in India) have always been there. They live in the mountains, it won't be odd to find a blonde and blue eyed person there. But I don't believe they are descendants of Greeks. The Sycthians (sp?), however did invade parts of India and the warrior people (Rajputs) are descendants of them (although they look totally Indian by now).
Cashie
King
I don't like using the term 'Aryan', mainly because of certain people barstardising in Europe in the last 100 or so years.
Roughly 3000 years ago - maybe longer (it was before the establishment of Buddhism and Hinduism-proper) Indo-Europeans overran the Indian subcontinent. They were of lighter colouring than the natives/locals, they established themselves as the ruling class and begun the caste system as a means of maintaning racial 'purity'.
These people also labled themselves 'arya' which means 'superior' in Sanskrit (an Indo-European language, related to most 'European' languages -with the exception of the now defunct Etruscan- and also a drawing point for Indian languages, such as Hindi), which became the sacred language in India - most religious or 'sacred' documents were written in Sanskrit (much the same way in which Latin was used accross Europe up to the middle ages).
These 'Aryans' obviously made their mark across Central & Eastern Asian area, since the name Iran is derived from it. Also I beleive that Persian Emporers [Kings of Kingses?] up until the time of Alexander the Great called themselves "Light of the Aryans" as a title in their personal nomenclature
eg. Darius, King of Kings, Light of the Aryans, etc, etc
So, as I read elsewhere: there are people living in India, Pakistan & Iran with dark hair, dark eyes and brown skin; with more right to be called 'Aryan' than any blonde-haired, blue-eyed, white-skinned European.
Yay! I think I missed the point of the thread!!
Roughly 3000 years ago - maybe longer (it was before the establishment of Buddhism and Hinduism-proper) Indo-Europeans overran the Indian subcontinent. They were of lighter colouring than the natives/locals, they established themselves as the ruling class and begun the caste system as a means of maintaning racial 'purity'.
These people also labled themselves 'arya' which means 'superior' in Sanskrit (an Indo-European language, related to most 'European' languages -with the exception of the now defunct Etruscan- and also a drawing point for Indian languages, such as Hindi), which became the sacred language in India - most religious or 'sacred' documents were written in Sanskrit (much the same way in which Latin was used accross Europe up to the middle ages).
These 'Aryans' obviously made their mark across Central & Eastern Asian area, since the name Iran is derived from it. Also I beleive that Persian Emporers [Kings of Kingses?] up until the time of Alexander the Great called themselves "Light of the Aryans" as a title in their personal nomenclature
eg. Darius, King of Kings, Light of the Aryans, etc, etc
So, as I read elsewhere: there are people living in India, Pakistan & Iran with dark hair, dark eyes and brown skin; with more right to be called 'Aryan' than any blonde-haired, blue-eyed, white-skinned European.
Yay! I think I missed the point of the thread!!
I wouldn't call the process a conquest, since info was scant. IMO it's probably more of a migratory process and transfer of culture and techs.NP300 said:
Never heard of that story - and there's certainly no report of it in Chinese records.
The Chinese were never 'enemies' of the Persians. Our one and only true enemy were the horsemen fr the steppes - not one of any landed polities.NP300 said:
And the legions never penetrated so far east, into C Asia, unless you count those who're prisoners of the Parthians and sent further eastwards in small groups.
NP300
Prince
XIII said:
It was conquest. The Vedas describe it as conquest. If it wasn't conquest then how could they impose their language/culture over such a vast region?
Well, someone told me the story, I don't have a link or anything.
