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[C3C] RPG Mod Discussion/WIP

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by nick0515, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    In another thread I started discussing ideas with @Oni Ryuu for an RPG mod that I have been thinking about making for many years. I thought I might start a proper discussion thread for it. I would be very happy to have anyone help and ideas from anyone who is interested.

    These posts from the other thread have the details of my ideas so far plus Oni Ryuu's great ideas:

    Spoiler :

    So would this work?

    Scenario context:

    A Multiplayer RPG. Players control a single hero. Armour and Weapons simulated. Weapons can be found in dungeon areas of the map or built by the player. Mage characters have a special resource that allows them to 'Enchant' other characters weapons and then give it back to them with increased stats.

    Armour: This is a unit with transport capacity and a high HP and defense but zero attack. This is in effect represents hero itself as well as it's armour. It also represents the heroes weapons for the purposes of defending. It can transport other items (units) used by the hero such as a weapon (see below) or a spell (cruise missile) or an ability of some kind.

    Weapon: This is essentially an artillery unit with range 1 or greater than uses the same animation as the Amour (hero) unit. So when the hero attacks with it's weapon it is actually waking a transported artillery unit that attacks another unit, meaning no chance of the hero taking damage while attacking. Defending is based on the armour's defensive value as described above.

    Now comes the trading part:

    - Weapons are always capture-able (zero defense artillery type units) by other players heroes (they are hidden nationality - thanks @Oni Ryuu !!!).

    - If the weapon is traded to the Mage hero it can be enchanted and then traded back (recaptured) by the hero that owns it. This should work like this: All players have the tech for the original weapon but not the resource it requires. Therefore if they find the unit in a dungeon they can capture it. The mage character has a special resource that enables that player to upgrade the weapon to an Enchanted version of the weapon with better attack value. The enchanted version is a King unit though so it can't be built by the mage only upgraded to. All players have the required tech and are allowed to build the enchanted weapon.

    The weapon still can be traded back to another player but that player can't build or upgrade to the enchanted version because the resource required is only available to mage hero players.

    Will this work?

    Something I haven't quite figured out is I want the weapon to have different variants depending on who is using it because it has to use the same animations of the armour unit. Eg an orc with a sword or a dwarf with the same sword. This might be hard or impossible to do at the same time as the above trading?

    In which case I will probably have weapons be specific to a race/hero class and therefore not need different versions of the weapon in the upgrade path.



    Spoiler :

    First of all, thanks for all the great suggestions and taking an interest!

    I'll try and answer your questions or address all your comments below.


    Yes AI units will be normal.

    I've thought about using unit animations that are just the weapon, but what you suggest would look better perhaps. I'll definitely consider that because it would make things a look simpler and mean adding far less variant units to the game. Although, using existing animations means not having to create any new units animations.

    I've thought about this too, but also an easier solution might be just to have house rules stating some units can only be used by some classes and expect the players to follow those rules.

    I have a set of classes. The are based on a certain roles. This whole mod idea is based very loosely on World of Warcraft. The main roles I envision for the classes are:

    - Tank (high HP, defense)
    - Damage (high Ranged or melee attack)
    - Weakening (Charm attack)
    - Protection (Summon (enslave) guardian creatures/spells to help protect heroes, including high def/HP capturable units that can sit on the same tile as a hero and defend it light a protective force field type thing. Would be healing if this existed in Civ three)

    Warrior (Melee damage / Tank)
    Paladin (Tank / Prottection)
    Rogue (Weakening / Melee damage)
    Ranger (Ranged Damage / ?)
    Mage (Ranged Damage / ?)
    Priest (Protection / Weakening)
    Shaman/Druid (Jack of all trades like Druid in WoW, see explanation below)
    Necromancer (Weakening / Ranged/Melee Damage / Protection - Summon Skeletons)
    Death Knight (Tank / Weakening)

    Rogues are invisible but can be detected by higher level bad guys and by other heroes.

    The shaman/druid character will have different animal forms depending on its armour class being worn (planning cloth / leather / mail). If the shaman/druid is wearing leather it will appear as a large cat (tiger or something) and it will have invisible and weakening abilities like a rogue. If it wears mail it will appear as a bear and will have Tanking and Melee stats like a Warrior. Cloth will give weakening and protection abilities like a Priest. It will need to have a range of ability units to fit whatever form it is in. Eg if in in Priest forn can only carry the abilities/spells related to that form.


    I've considered using this quite a lot. Tom's mod used this set up. It doesn't fit very well with the model I have though. While I really like the idea of having a separate magic defense, I don't like the idea of the spell being destroyed so much. It just doesn't make much sense that a spell can be used again and again until bam someone's magic defense destroys it then you have to go back and get it again from your home city. I'm thinking more of permanent abilities (artillery units) and one off spells (cruise missiles). Still it does add another strategic element to the game some maybe I should reconsider having some types of spell that are air units and can be destroyed by air defense.

    Like! I'm planning items like amulets and rings which can attack.

    I was thinking that the weapons etc available to a hero would be based more on their class than their race but that would also work well.

    So I was planning that the hero(es) just have a single city that is their home. I'm also planning three AI controlled civs. Nature, that has cities that produce whiled animals and other random bad guys. Additionally, I was thinking of having two grand alliances like in WoW and similar games/worlds. There would be a 'good/order' type alliance and a 'bad/chaos' type alliance. Different races make up the two alliances. Heroes from a given race are locked allies the corresponding alliance that that race is part of. One of the hero's jobs is to help it's alliance control more of the map their by gaining greater access to resources for their alliance. They can trade for these resources with the AI controlled alliance and use the resources to craft better items. The nature civ would also produce 'resource' units (eg, iron) that need to be captured and upgraded to produce weapons etc. Another thing the nature civ cities would do is produce baby animals that can be captured and upgraded to pets that can be taken with the hero and used as an offensive minion. Pet's could be only for the ranger but probably for all heroes to be more fun.

    Yes I just discovered this in testing. Since the hero/amour isn't supposed to be able to attack I was thinking of giving all hero/armour units 1 attack. These heroes are only controlled by human players and you would have to be careful not to accidentally attack with it.

    Oh yes this would be a big problem in light of the allied AI civs discussed above. I guess minions will have to be used. Perhaps their will be a unit that IS the hero. This unit would not do any really attacking but would live inside the armour units and it's main purpose would be to capture zero defense units. It would be HN.

    This would be good. It could be based on professions too (see below).

    I don't really have anything except a head full of ideas. I've been planning this in my head for 5 plus years. All I have really mapped out is what units to use for what kind of hero, which is in an excel spreadsheet currently. I could share that. I'm terrible at follow through. I have many Civ projects all in the early stages of development. Nothing is even close to finished or even testable.

    I would like to develop a very basic test mod to see if all the ideas actually work and to see if it is actually fun to play.

    Other ideas I want to implement:

    Professions:
    - Blacksmith (create metal armour and weapons)
    - Tailor (create cloth armour)
    - Leather-working (create leather armour)
    - Woodworking (create bows and magic staves)
    - Jeweler (rings and amulets)

    Dungeons. Special ares of the map the hero can access and kill bosses and capture rewards like, high level weapons or resource units, treasure units etc.

    Constant war regions (this is a cut off region that only the hero can go in and out of (impassible to wheeled terrain and only heroes are not wheeled) with permanent AI alliance cities facing off against each other. The idea would be that the AI's both have a permanent unconquerable city in this region. They produce evenly matched forces so they would control half the region each by building cities in certain areas they allow a city. These regions would have resources in them. The hero could travel to the region and tip the balance in favour of his own alliance letting it gain full control of the region. Then the hero can trade with his alliance for those resources that they now control. If a human controlled hero existed on the apposing side (multiplayer) they could travel to the region to tip the balance back to normal or towards their own alliance.

    The AI wouldn't be to conquer the whole map. It might be just to complete all the dungeons and get right through the tech tree or something like that.




    Attached is a spreadsheet with the units I've chosen to represent each unit class for each race. Not all classes are available for all races. Female alternatives are included where possible.

    Testing Plan in stages:

    Stage 1 (COMPLETE)

    Download: https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/rpg-stage-1-zip.495205/:

    Testing Instructions
    Spoiler :

    • Load the Simple Wooden Bow ER and HERO: Elf Ranger unit into Simple Leather Armour ER unit.
    • The HERO: Elf Ranger does nothing yet so could be ignored. It is intended to represent the hero and to capture items that can then be loaded into the armour unit
    • Move the Simple Leather Armour ER unit around the map and attack the AI players units
    • To attack you must use the Simple Wooden Bow ER unit which is essentially an artillery unit with a ranged bombard attack:
      • DON'T RIGHT CLICK ON THE HERO(ARMOUR TRANSPORT) UNIT TO SELECT THE BOW!
      • Instead select the armour unit, then from the box of transported units, that appears on the lower right of the screen, select the bow unit
      • Sometimes the box doesn't seem to line up properly meaning that you actually have to click the armour icon in the box in order to select the bow unit
      • If you right click and select the bow after bombarding with it, it will be unloaded from the armour unit transport meaning your hero "drops" his weapon.
      • FIRE!!!

    • One playable hero (Elf Ranger)
    • A weapon (Simple Wooden Bow)
    • A suit of armour (Simple Leather Arnour)
    • An enemy AI civ with one type of Melee unit and one type of ranged unit
    • A basic map with some pre-placed enemy units for the hero to fight
    Stage 2:
    • A weapon and armour upgrade
    • An ability/spell unit
    • Treasure units (flag units that can be returned to the hero's home city for gold)
    • Two opposing AI civs locked in war with one locked in alliance with the hero
    • A contested AI zone where the two AI civs fight eachother and the hero can assist their ally
    Stage 3:
    • A tech tree that allows 3 class abilities/spells
    • A dungeon with a boss
    • A weapon to capture when the boss is killed
    Stage 4:
    • Add techs for one profession (eg blacksmithing)
    • Craft resource units and resources
    • Weapons/armour to craft after techs/resources aquired
    Stage 5:
    • Implement all heroes, techs, weapons, armour etc
    • Create a full detailed map with many Allied AI controlled zones, Contested zones, Dungeons
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  2. Oni Ryuu

    Oni Ryuu Chieftain

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    Do you intend to make all 43 classes fully playable characters?

    Do you intend for players to edit the .biq before they start a new game? (Enter the desired character stats manually for the assigned player)

    How many people are expected to be on one game?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  3. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    Good questions. Currently I'm thinking that each playable hero would be an individual cic with an individual tech tree for their class/race abilities. I'd need to cut down how many heroes their are to about 28 then.

    Another way to go would be to have a generic tech tree. Players would choose their hero class after they start a game. They would be able to build all available hero classes for their race which would require a certain resource. This resource would be set to disappear on the second turn. So the player would have one turn to pick a hero and then stick with that hero.

    Editing the biq would be another option.

    Currently I'm thinking of standard 8 player multiplayer. Three civs are reserved for AI players, leaving 1 - 5 Human hero players. In order for the difficulty to increase with the number of players it might be necessary to have 5 different biqs with more/harder bad guys because the built in difficulty levels system probably wouldn't work well with this strange kind of mod I'm planning.

    EDIT: Have added a testing plan, to the first post, in 5 stages to build up to a fully functioning mod.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  4. Oni Ryuu

    Oni Ryuu Chieftain

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    There are 28 playable Civs/characters; 8 of which can be played by people and 3 are AI only ones. If there are less than 8 people playing the computer will control the other main character’s Civs so you might need to make a .biq for 1, 2, 3-8 player games. Are you sure you can get 8 people at once to play this mod?

    Does it need to be a multiplayer game? You could achieve more with a solo game.

    Resources don’t disappear, they just move to another part of the map.
     
  5. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    In standard multiplayer isn't it 8 civs total including AI controlled civs? Also in the set up for multiplayer games I believe you can choose which civs are AI or human controlled can't you? So you'd choose the 3 AI's to controlled the civs they are intended to control plus add as many human controlled heroes as needed up to 5. I can't really test this at the moment though as I'm running civ on Linux and I've discovered the Multiplayer doesn't work properly.

    I imagine that most of the time it would be played single player though so it needs to be fully functional for that purpose. I'd like it to be playable by a single player as well as multiplayer if possible. I'd personally find it more fun playing it with friends. What can't be achieved with multiplayer that could be with single players? More than 8 civs? There is a patch that enables this though I haven't used it. Other things?

    Oh... resources not disappearing is a problem. Someone suggested that or something similar to me a long time ago. Maybe I remembered wrong. I wonder if there is another way to achieve that. Anyway it's not my preferred set up. I'd rather have one civ corresponding to a specific hero race/gender/class.

    Another version of the mod I have thought about is one where the player can produces multiple heroes. I'd prefer to create one where the player has a single hero first though like a traditional RPG.
     
  6. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    Been thinking about class abilities (units). Here's what a ranger's might look like:

    Ranger:

    - Power Shot (high att / rof)
    - Poison Arrow (weakening att)
    - Flurry of Arrows (Blitz, 3 x medium att, non-leathal)
    - Flaming arrow (chance to create 'fire' immobile defensive unit)
    - Nature's blessing (low att, magic attack, chance to summon and protective sheild unit

    Or instead could be more like you suggest @Oni Ryuu with no abilities but different classes able to use different item sets. Still trying to decide. Or even both.
     
  7. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    Sounds interesting. I've thought about creating arena type mods where games could be finished in about an hour and have a high challenge, similar to like a Tower Defense. If I had the ability, I might try to help, but right now I cannot, and what little time I do get, I work on finishing my mod. Computer time is little these days for me. I do enjoy thinking about interesting systems though.

    Regarding MP, yes you choose which ones are AI, and it is included in the 8 player limit of LAN and Internet modes. If the BIQ is set to have a civ not a Human Player, 'AI:' is actually added to the front of the civ name, though it could still be selected if wanted for a human.
     
  8. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    I've done a small amount of work on several arena type fast play multiplayer mods too. I've got one that is aiming to be a turn-based Star Craft type game. Another is a Warhammer 40K mod that mimics tabletop 40K.

    This perfectly sums up me as well. Lots of thinking but no time to actually mod :(

    Thanks :)
     
  9. Oni Ryuu

    Oni Ryuu Chieftain

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    Hi Nathiri

    nick0515
    I may have totally misunderstood your idea never having played an MMO or any WoW game.
    a) Are you making it so players just mooch about without any particular motivation?
    b) Are you expected to improve your guy to be able to explore progressively more challenging areas of an open world map; and do you need other player’s support for that to be achievable?
    c) Possibly a game where enemy units are placed in a series of rooms in some kind of dungeon maze?

    Here’s a link to Sima Qian’s multiplayer tool allowing you to have up to 31 players in a multiplayer game.

    Have you decided on a fixed .biq or one where you edit it for each new game?
     
  10. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    Good questions. I probably haven't explained myself very well. The answer is probably a mixture of all three but especially a and b.

    Players could do this sometimes. They can hang out at their home city and craft items etc. The main goal would still be to improve you hero and it's abilities/equipment etc. The end goal would be to complete all dungeon areas of the map.

    Yes to the first part of this. Re needing other players support, no. A single player should be able to play on their own. I'm thinking separate biq's for multiplayer that are more difficult and where there is a certain amount of needing other human players support, particularly in dungeons with the increased difficulty.

    As mentioned above some areas of the map are set up as dungeons to complete with pre-placed units.

    Thanks! :)

    Will try for a fixed biq(s) if possible but with pre-editing the biq as a back-up option if needed.

    Did that make it any clearer? It all seems so clear to me as I've been planning it for like a decade in my head, but I'm probably not explaining it very.

    I've started work on my planned stages. Working on getting a stage one biq ready. It's been so long since I actually modded I'm having trouble adding a unit. I've tripple checked everything but am still getting a pedia icons error. Need to keep checking until I find what I've done wrong.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  11. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    That's for Hotseat or PBEM isnt it? not for LAN and Internet.
     
  12. Oni Ryuu

    Oni Ryuu Chieftain

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    Separating the game into single & multiplayer .biqs would help.
    I think I’ve got a good image of the game now.

    If your main unit is damaged, you’d need to head to the nearest owned city and wait. You might need defensive equipment like a shield (high defence) or protection spell (low defence, high HP) to keep them in the field. You might already have something suitable but it’s not come up yet.

    You’re right; it doesn’t mention LAN, just hotseat and PBEM.

    That' usually where errors occur.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  13. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    Heroes would need a wonder that allows healing in enemy territory. Protective units would be quite common too I guess. Also if you hero died the is always the auto saves. Not intended to have permadeath.

    If all of this doesn't really work out I would still be keen to create a single player dungeon crawl type game rather than the more ambitious multiplayer open world.
     
  14. Oni Ryuu

    Oni Ryuu Chieftain

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    I’d like to make a single player RPG mod but I’d need some of the graphics we’ve been discussing.

    Spoiler :

    You’ll already know most of this stuff. I just wanted to show you where we’ve chosen different options.

    Main Points
    • The city graphics are invisible
    • Each city has a strategic resource to represent the type of item/utility.
    • Your characters are divided into 4 main classes. There are also summoned beasts, a pack mule and minions.
    • You acquire team mates as you explore the map. They need to be sent off to be upgraded or carried until you reach an appropriate utility (city) to become useable.
    • Mobile AI units can’t use equipment so will be fairly basic
    • Immobile AI units (bosses) can have summons and other interesting equipment comparable to the player.
    • All found equipment (proto units) should be a foot unit so it can be transported by your pack mule. Summons excluded.
    • All characters will need a minimum of 10 HP or they’ll be slaughtered in the first outing.
    • The main characters need an unarmed attack value so they can capture equipment.
    • The Mage, Summoner and the Minions have an unarmed bombard value too.
    • The terrain can’t be improved.
    • Cities are doted throughout the maze as checkpoints for healing and upgrading.
    • Most cities are defended by a boss/mini boss.
    Equipment Units
    Foot + T-missile (Light) = melee, bow
    T-missile (Heavy) = heavy melee
    Aircraft (Dark Magic) = summon demon, spell, poor melee
    Foot (Basic) = light melee
    Mech (Magic) = staff, strong spell

    Stats and Attributes
    Bombard = Chance of hitting
    Rate of fire = Max damage per use
    Transport capacity = Equipment
    Defence = chance of avoiding hit
    HP = HP
    Moves = Speed
    Bombard Range = weapons range (melee/ranged)
    Operational Range = summon range
    Population cost = reward value in flag units, maybe

    Zone of control
    Blitz (multi hit)
    Cruise missile (single use)
    Radar (improved sight)
    Select attack (minions only)
    Enslave
    Recon (remote viewing)
    Bombard (attack)
    Defensive Bombard (counter attack)
    Bombing (summon attack)
    Interception (summon defence)

    Characters
    Ranger (loads foot + T-missile) can use Light equipment. Fast, medium combat stats
    Soldier (loads T-missile) can use Light & Heavy equipment. Slow, good combat stats, high capacity
    Summoner (loads aircraft) can use Dark Magic equipment. Poor combat stats
    Pack Mule (loads foot) can load Basic equipment. Defenceless, very high capacity
    Mage (loads mech) can use Basic & Magical equipment. Poor combat stats, high capacity
    Minions and Normal Enemies can attack, defend and bombard normally
    Bosses can have a stack of units to support them.

    Items can be upgraded at different locations yielding a variety of results
    New Longsword (Proto unit for Scout & Soldier units)
    • Longsword (no resource required, can be upgraded almost anywhere)
    • Fine Longsword (Requires Workbench)
    • Enchanted Longsword (Requires a Sacred Altar)
    • Unholy Longsword (Requires Dark Magic Shrine)
    One type of proto unit could upgrade to suit 4 of the classes. (Summoners excluded)
    New Amethyst (Proto unit)
    • Amethyst Pendant (for Ranger & Soldier)
    • Amethyst Necklace (for Minion & Mage)
    A character can upgrade to their next level by accessing a resource specific to them hidden in a more hazardous place on the map. If the Mage (1) accessed the utility with the Sacred Altar resource it could upgrade to Mage (2).

    Tech
    Not required for era advancement tech.
    One page for the characters and pack mule (one line each)
    One page for the weapons (typically forks out into three class lines each with higher levels.)
    One page for the summons (one line each)
    One page for the three minion classes (one line each) Thief, Mercenary and Huntsman
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  15. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    Yah, I'm very excited about this. If there is anything I can do to help I would be happy too (subject to my limited modding time).

    The pack mule is a very good idea! I might consider that for my mod.

    How many Boss's do you plan to have? I think Boss fights will be fun, if they can be made to last a few turns and be challenging. I haven't tested this at all yet. I'm also planning to have the boss' have equipment and enslave more units. Many of my heroes will have their own minions that they get through enslave attacking so there should be cannon folder for bosses to take out and doing their own enslaving.

    I really like you system of levels of equipment and upgrading in certain locations and in different ways depending on the class.

    Have you thought about different races much and how they will differ. I'd like to have reasonably different stats between races to give my mod more variation and replay-ability.

    I'm planning to have some invisible cities too for the AI nature/bad guys civ.

    Very exciting!
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  16. Oni Ryuu

    Oni Ryuu Chieftain

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    I'll have a mini boss for nearly every city and a real boss to block passages that lead to the end of the game.

    I only need two active civilisations, the player and the AI.
    I suppose one of each class of character could be found in the dungeon so you could choose your main character from one of the 30 none AI civs. They could be a variation based on the main classes but with adjusted stats. With a bit more work (available to civ yes/no) you could make your party all orcs, dwarfs, elves, etc. as you accire them.

    I can’t start work on the mod until I’ve finalised TLC and TLC Mercantile.
     
  17. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    Something I've noticed with land transports and artillery units firing from them, is that the unit sometimes gets unloaded after you attack with it. This seems to only happen when you right click the transport unit and selected the artillery unit from the menu list and then attack with it. The unit seems to always be unloaded. However, it does not seem to happen when you select the artillery unit from the little box that appears in the bottom right of the screen when a transport unit is selected.
     
  18. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    Have created large and small icons for a bow and leather armour. Note the grey boarders denoting that they are low level item types. As with many MMORPG's items will be graded:

    Grey = Common
    Green = Uncommon
    Blue = Rare
    Purple = Epic

    Capture.PNG

    Equipment.png
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
    Nathiri likes this.
  19. Oni Ryuu

    Oni Ryuu Chieftain

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    It’s already showing promise. Everything’s better with a visual aid.
     
  20. nick0515

    nick0515 Fantasy World Builder

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    Yes, I feel more motivated now that I can see it visually and it looks okay!
     

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