RR13 - Hearts and Minds

Looks good LK! Happy to see access in Paris and Mutal with still 181 turns to go... By now I think if we don't win this it will be due to very bad luck with flipping. :)
Well we still have the Debre headache. No clue how we will get that one.

I'm happy with the sheer volume of potential flips. ;)
I got nine cities possible (one 2nd revolt), plus AP steals from Maya. One or two more cities from the Maya and they start really getting nerfed. I really want that city with Uranium.
This set felt productive - AP steal, nice war prize, and a natural flip.


Now we need to get access to Zara and start another war soon...
 
Looks good LK! Happy to see access in Paris and Mutal with still 181 turns to go... By now I think if we don't win this it will be due to very bad luck with flipping. :)
True ... or if we get sticked with a city that is simply too far to get in time. But besides that, and with the possibility of emptying cities completely, things get easier, I guess ;)

Good job LK. To be honest I even got to check the save ASAP to see what had happened to shaka since I was not seeing his territory in the minimap of your last screen :p Good call on Vienne since that one would be hard to flip

Next set will be most likely about getting acess to a french city to attack besides Burgundian ( orleans is by far the best candidate, especially after we settle the marked spot .... nice call on the settler there ), teching the last techs we want ( fission and artilery, since Pacal decided to go Industrialism ... without oil :p ), try to get a city out of pacal via AP ( BTW we should give him more confu .... makes things cheaper ) and prepare a new war with Zara ( we need a brand new stack for it, I think ... that or 3 tanks + aerial cover ). Maybe even get a city for peace with the french if they let Shaka go ...

BTW, got it.
 
Next set will be most likely about getting acess to a french city to attack besides Burgundian ( orleans is by far the best candidate, especially after we settle the marked spot .... nice call on the settler there ),
That is the challenge with France - another target past Orleans. But we take what we can get, and we finally have a front vs. France. :)

To be honest I even got to check the save ASAP to see what had happened to shaka since I was not seeing his territory in the minimap of your last screen
:lol:
I really did screw him over for territory, didn't I? Between getting his city that he lost to France, the push city, and the AP bonus from the set before he is a non-player at this point. :)


try to get a city out of pacal via AP ( BTW we should give him more confu .... makes things cheaper )
Check his cities - they are more confused then when I started the started the set despite needing missionaries for our new cities. ;)
IIRC we have another missionary on the way to Pacal.
 
First I did in the set was to give a look at the monster we created and to think how was I going to juggle all this ... a hour later i pressed enter :/

And this happened:
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1270.jpg

LK indeed made a nice job screwing Shaka ... unfortunately the revolter didn't flipped yet.

Next turn ...
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1271.jpg

Again just warning revolt.

Unforutnately the AP vote that happened in this turn was to choose leader :/ i obviously abstained ( BTW must check what happens if everybody abstains in this election someday ) [/sarc] .

Anyway, like LK pointed we were worried with the access to Debre and thinking how to get the city... we even had a sign point for a "critical" spot to settle to get to Debre. The AI dutifully obliged ...
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1272.jpg

In fact this is actually not the greatest news of them all. First, it is another city to flip/AP grab/get in peace deal. Second it has very little culture ( unlike a settled city of ours now would have ), meaning that getting ring expansions would need a lot of spy missions....

Anyway further developments would make this a moot point ...[suspense]

One more day, one more rebelion ...
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1274.jpg

Seriously, this city should had already kissed the ring ages ago :/ But it was not this time ... again.

BTW, as you can deduce, I finished Adv flight in this IBT ... and unlike the pic sugests, I teched arties ( good call, since Pacal gone Radio ). We would get Fission by other means ( those more perceptive already know how and from who just by this pic )

One more day ... oh, wait, I already used that one already :/
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1275.jpg

Other one to not flip yet. If the next player does not get atleast a flip, we will have surely to sacrifice a goat or something to the RNG Gods...

As i was getting bored with the lack of action in the Shaka sector , I pulled up some forces of there, added some tanks and gunships and ... *cue horn of war*
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1276.jpg

That and the fact that we had now 2 cities where to attack from Zara ( the newly settled one and Adis Adeba ). Zara is pretty gassed out , so i think I over prepared a little , though.

( P.S Zara sabotaged one jewish synagoge of ours near his border in the beginning of the set. It is still under reconstruction )

As the war with the french ( that was centered around Orleans, that we reached settling a city near it in t1 of the set ) and the Ethiopians was being boring, I decided to pressure the Mayans. I was with I deas of picking the marked spot to settle, but then I noticed that uMug would need another culture ring to grab it ... and 1 E of it was legal as well:
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1278.jpg

You can sense the previous culture spread by how the border jumps in top of the mayans cities...

For those that had not discovered yet how did we got fission, here is a big fat clue :
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1279.jpg

Yes, I can agree that the EP could had beem beter spent in culture in the short run, but fissions gives us manhattan and manhattan gives nukes. Not that we need nukes in any sense for cleaning units ( all the AI except pacal are dried out of units and pacal is not exactly a big threat ), but we might need those nukes because the AI has little units ...

Let me explain: the AI are pretty dried out of units, so they have little units for us to kill. That means that we can't gather much of war sucess points by killing units. Our variants forbid city capture ( the main contributor to the war sucess scores in most wars ) and , besides rare exceptions, worker/settler captures, so the only other way of getting war sucess is by launching nukes ( note, the nuke only has to detonate in the enemy territory to give war sucess, it doesn't even need to touch anything ) ... and we want war sucess because that is one of the gauges the AI measures what to give away in a peace deal. Little war sucess, no cities :/

Back on the game ... we finish our tech shopping list:
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1280.jpg

I've set the research to Refrigeration ... Supermarket = 1/2 spy spec or more :p

And we got a quest ...
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1281.jpg


According to ori ...
Code:
Quest18
	Hostile Takeover
	Prereq: own a corporate HQ and do not control at least 1 instance of all resources the corporation uses
	Obsolete: None
	Active/Weight: 80/200
		Aim:
		own all resource types the corporation uses
		Result:
1.+20 gold for the corporate HQ
In fact this is actually a nice thing since the more easily accessible clam resource is in Ethiopia ...

I actually forgot to take a pic of the second AP vote in my set ( i overplayed a turn to deliver the game with the result already decided ). As LK guessed below, the city of the vote was Mayapan ( i could had chosen Oxhuitza already, but mayapan was safer, since the city was less valuable to Pacal ( less pop and further away from cap )
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1283.jpg

The city comes with almost all the possible buildings done, including a Industrial center.

And i ended my set here ... some pics:

First , some maps:

Ethiopia
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1286.jpg

A lot happened around here in the last turns of the set...

First, roughly halfway of the set Qohaito culture reached Debre. I was really not expecting that so soon ... i guess i underestimated Sushi + broadcast tower . I quickly moved a boatload of spies there and bombed Debre hard in the last turn of the set, making it accessible and with a majority of our culture. I dutifully empied it OFC and now it has 9ishs% of revolt risk. Lymond in the end had made a good call in not asking it for peace :/

You can also notice the advance against Adis Adeba. Not as spectacular as Debre, but we have put a lot of pressure there and in Aksum. Notice also that Matara ( the clam city that i was talking about in the item about the quest ) is cut from the rest of the Ethiopian territory by land ( also happened in the last turn of the set ). We should definitely open a path to attack it as soon as possible.

French border ( minus Burgundian )

Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1287.jpg

The path to Orleans was open easily by settling Rajagriha ( the " push city" ) since we already had more culture in the tiles of the areas due to the culture spread to reach Paris and it was our main vector of attack to France in this set. Tours path was only opened in the end of the set ( again ... ) , but I already cleaned it out of units. We still don't have a majority of culture there, but we have a handful of spies in place.

Like LK says below, we have a lot of culture in paris already and in almost all of the cities.

Mayan
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1288.jpg

I've kept a steady ammount of pressure over the mayans and , summed to the inherited work of the previous players, all of that pressure is finally making the mayans to crumble.

First ,as you can see, we completely engulfed Oxhuitza and the city is with 4,5% revolt risk in spite of the pretty decent infantry stack in there. Second, one less mayan city in the world thanks to the AP. Third and not so seeable, both Lakamla and Mutal are under heavy cultural pressure ( both cities have 30-40% of our culture ) and all of the mayans cities have culture of ours. IMHO, unless pacal starts defying left and right, we should get atleast more 2 cites via AP from him in the next 2 sets ... but note that pacal is teching radio, so he is close of spamming Broadcast towers.

I decided to left out the Celtic and the Zulu maps since there were little changes. I pushed the Celtic cap hard, but I was left with no EP to use when I was 2-3 spreads of opening a path to it, so the terriorial gains are small ... and the Zulu cities do not want to fall yet.

Tech and EP screens:
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1284.jpg


civ4screenshot1285.jpg

Techwise we are kings. We can steal Fascism, but I'm divided about the utility of it for us ( no use for Paras, the free GG is gone, Rep>>>PS for us and, due to our rules and our ridiculous K/D ratio, we have little issue with war weariness ). Like I said, I set the research in Refrigeration, but our tech needs are for all the effects closed.

The EP screen ... well, that is another issue. Like I said above i creamed almost all the EP we had on celtia to try to reach the Celtic cap and that is showing. The Ethiopian pool is also somewhat drained due to the missions in Adis Adeba and in Aksum ... The French pool is somewhat recovering from the Paris spreads ( since I've been focusing in getting to Tours ), but when we get there again we will need deep pockets to finish the job. The pacal one is actually more healthy than what I was expecting to be, since i've been running a good bunch of missions in Mutal.

In resume, about the EP ratios, the 4:3:2:1:0 ratios we are using now are just temporary recover measures. Feel free to float them as needed.

BTW we got another GSpy somewhere in the set ( so uneventul now that i forgot to take note of when it was ) and a GG. Not sure of how to use either of them ...

Notes

First of all, I do think we need some military reorganization. We do not need those gigantic stacks anymore, since no one besides Pacal has a big stack ( I wonder why ). In fact we do not need much of military build anymore ... hence my doubt of how to use the GG we got. Ok, we need a couple or so of gunships to get to Brennus, jet fighers and maybe some artilery, but given our ridiculously promoted units ( we have a C5 infantry in the ethiopian front ... ) and our uncontested control of the skies, we have full control of the battlefields.

I'm sugesting to atleast send some gunships of the Ethiopian for the soon to be open Celtic front. We also need to transfer some bombers to the same front. That is why I haven't started the war with Brennus in the last turn of the set...



Spy wise ... we have a good bunch of spies waiting in Celtia. Use them when you have enough EP for it and prioritize the cap for access. We also have to open path to Mataran as soon as possible and to keep the pressure up in the Ethiopian cap ( expensive as hell ). There is also a single spy in Zululand ... that one is there to make Shaka revolt to slavery.

Besides that, the priorities are to continue to put culture in Mutal and Lakamla in Mayaland, Adis Adeba in Ethiopia ( no more missions in Debre... not needed ), Isca in Celtia and Tours (and Paris after Tours has a majority of our culture ) on France... not necessarily by this order. For a example, we are pretty close of getting a majority of our culture in the Mayan cities i quoted and that would make them AP grab targets ( in spite of not expecting the AI to give away their cap so easily ), while others are more far away from that objective

LK sugests below to get some cities that are in spy duty to get markers and such. I agree. He also says that we need more Sushi around ... I hae tried to keep up with the demand, but I've obviously underestimated the need of execs :/

On that tone, we should probably should put some cities in wealth mode. I think we got the number of spies we need for the rest of the game and we only have to keep it around the number we have now ... and wealth would make cash that we can put on the espionage slider.

Give a eye to the specs. I spent 20 min during the middle of the set reorganizing the specs we have ( i think that I'll be the first one to gripe that the governor puts too little emphasis on spy specs , but that is true in our game ) and that alone gave us roughly extra 400 EP/turn. This means that the specs should be roughly well, but atleast give a eye to that in detail once in the set.

Last, and probably least ATM, is the tech sector. I don't see much of point to put steam in the tech sector now, since the real bottleneck is the EP, but since we are in Rep and have a decent beaker output even with the slider in the 0% ... well, i queued and partly teched Refrigeration. i already said why: Supermarkets. Not essential, but useful, especially since TGD giving us a general yuck overlay on the empire ... i don't want to promise much, but supermarkets should give us atleast more 20 spy specs. After that ... well, dunno. We should avoid mass media , atleast until the AP loses usefulness ( completely in the hands of pacal this one ) or Computers ( I think that Sankore and SM would still be more useful for us than it ) and i don't see the point of going to the pure SS techs, atleast for now. That leaves: Stealth ( Stealth bombers ), Composites ( Modern Armor ), Laser ( Mobile SAM and Mobile Arties ) and Ecology ( recicling centers and the ability of clean fallout ( hopefully not needed ) ). Pick one ....

IMPORTANT EDIT: We have a sticky situation with Shaka and France. We gathered a lot of war sucess from France and we can grab atleast 1 city from them in a peace deal, 2 if we go Orleans and Burgundian. The issue is that it will make Shaka to peace out too and we don't want that ...

MY take on this is to not make peace with France in the next set unless Shaka breaks from him. I say this because 2 of the cities from Shaka already rebelled and it is likely that atleast one flips in the next set. But we do really need a consensus on this one.


 
OK, it is only 10P here so I was curious. Nongoma of the Zulu flipped to us. The Zulu are even more screwed then my set. They only have 3 cities left, and the only land they control are the 3 home tiles.


The AP city looks like Mayapan from Pacal. It looks like my setup worked nicely. Rolo has continued to crunch the Maya, and we should be able to get Oxhuitza the next AP vote from them.
Every Mayan city now has at least token culture.
For now I support 100% peace with Pacal. We need one civ to abuse the AP with. ;)
We are down to just one of his cities without Confucianism.


We have culture in Debre! :dance:
No clue what city let us finally get there, but that is great news. The city that I was nervous about is no longer an issue.
We are close to breaking 50% in Addis.
Aksum is still a PITA, but we are slowly working to break 50%.


I agree we made nice progress in France. Looks like Paris finally broke enough, and there is just one French city without our culture in it.
The question is how much do we want from the war? He will give us Orleans *and* Burgundian right now. Neither city is great, but it is 2 more cities. We could then swing back to pounding on 4 isolated Brennus city.
The problem is the Zulu still is his Vassal.


My request is to get back to building some executives. I see none in progress, and we still have some cities without it.


BLEH - we got screwed, and got another spy in Bombay. Not sure why it isn't used yet. I will wait for the report.
To be honest, I wonder if another GA with something else would be better than SY at this point.


EP looks like it is even becoming more of a problem then it was during my set. Despite Rolo getting EP generation even better we are running short. The next player *NEEDS* to review all cities. I suspect we can squeeze more spy specialist out of our cities.
I think some all spy cities such as Patal need to take a break from spies and build a market. 31 *.25 = 7.75$ per turn, and we need more income to support a higher EP. Calcutta has a base of $23 and no income multipliers.
We have the Jewish shrine in Lalibela. Do we want to start spreading Judaism?
Total spies isn't the issue any more, it is the EP to support them.

Get we get a more gunships built, and delete all the one-shot cruise missles?
 
Get we get a more gunships built, and delete all the one-shot cruise missles?

Lurker comment: Cruise missiles can hit targets away from the border. If you have enough culture in the city, it can flip if emptied of troops without needing to wait for a border pop to pave the way for the helos.
 
Lurker comment: Cruise missiles can hit targets away from the border. If you have enough culture in the city, it can flip if emptied of troops without needing to wait for a border pop to pave the way for the helos.
True enough ... and they can hit naval unit too. We need them now since we have a sushi resource that we can't send a ship to defend in the north until we flip or get via peace deal a city from Zara or Numidian from Brennus. But I would strongly reccomend to restrict their use in land battles.

We don't actually need so much of gunships ... basically we need one per cleaning stack and in case of isolated cities, one for 3 cities might be more than enough. What I agree is that we need some for brennus, but we are talking of 2-3 gunships that are absolutely necessary.

BTW, I WILL make a report, don't worry. What I meant is that i would not make a report yesterday at 2 am :p But with LK resume I'll probably make it a little shorter :p

I'll probably do that tonight ( 6-7 h from now ) ;)
 
Updated the report ... please do not tl;dr on it ;)

BTW a extra pic:
Spoiler :
civ4screenshot1291.jpg

I think i underestimated a little the ammount of spies needed to win this game when i said 500 :p

Thy is up, nocho on deck.

BTW, friendly warning. This game is consuming 30 min/turn ATM due to the heavy MM needed for the spies and the warfare. Be prepared for that ... and because of that I'll be more lenient with the delivery dates :p
 
Am I right in thinking that I need some culture in a city (ie some cultural influence on the city tile) before I can spy-bomb more culture into it?
 
Yup, you are right . But you can use spreaded culture from a city to bridge to the next ones ( spreaded culture acts like a culture bomb with the value of 5% of the total tile culture of the city tile and it spreads out to the field in the same way ). If you have the patience to open the save i posted above, you will see that we have culture from literally coast to coast due to the effort we made in chaining culture spreads from one city to the other ... OFC that makes the culture overlay a complete mess :D
 
My general take for direction - war with Brennus ASAP. After I got him to surrender Veinne in the peace deal we have *4* isolated cities. This include Dur with has 1 revolt already. :)
These should be very easy to keep empty.

Peace with Pacal so we have at least one civ to screw with the AP. Oxhuitza is nice to take, and we get more Uranium OUT of the AI hands.
 
Yup, you are right . But you can use spreaded culture from a city to bridge to the next ones ( spreaded culture acts like a culture bomb with the value of 5% of the total tile culture of the city tile and it spreads out to the field in the same way ). If you have the patience to open the save i posted above, you will see that we have culture from literally coast to coast due to the effort we made in chaining culture spreads from one city to the other ... OFC that makes the culture overlay a complete mess :D
Is there a formula somewhere for how the amount of culture added is calculated? And if I run (say) 100 missions, how can I tell how much culture has been added via those missions? do I need to keep track manually?
 
The formula is simple and I already said it in the previous post: 5% of the total tile culture ( that is, of all the civs that have culture in there ) in the city tile ... at a base cost ( before modifiers ) of 3 EP needed to generate 1 culture. As you don't have direct acess to the total tile culture in game, the only way of knowing in game how much culture a spy will spread in a city is to move a spy into the city :/ ( well, not exactly . That info is sort of delivered via espionage screen, in spite of the stock screen being a clickfest and not very pratical )

And no, there is no way of tracking exactly how much culture we dropped in in a city from the game. In fact I remember asking for a functionality for BUG like that some time ago ( when we ( because most of the team is the same ) ran RR6 ) ... :p

P.S If you check the culture overlay you can know when your culture hit "border pops" in the foreign city in question. That was the method we used in RR6 to check if a city already had legendary culture of ours. Also , if you fancy some math you can know how many culture you spreaded by reverse engineering the cost of a spy mission + the % of culture you have in the city tile. Neither is the the thing you ask , but they are the thing you most of the times need to know in game
 
The formula is simple and I already said it in the previous post: 5% of the total tile culture ( that is, of all the civs that have culture in there ) in the city tile ... at a base cost ( before modifiers ) of 3 EP needed to generate 1 culture. As you don't have direct acess to the total tile culture in game, the only way of knowing in game how much culture a spy will spread in a city is to move a spy into the city :/ ( well, not exactly . That info is sort of delivered via espionage screen, in spite of the stock screen being a clickfest and not very pratical )

And no, there is no way of tracking exactly how much culture we dropped in in a city from the game. In fact I remember asking for a functionality for BUG like that some time ago ( when we ( because most of the team is the same ) ran RR6 ) ... :p

P.S If you check the culture overlay you can know when your culture hit "border pops" in the foreign city in question. That was the method we used in RR6 to check if a city already had legendary culture of ours. Also , if you fancy some math you can know how many culture you spreaded by reverse engineering the cost of a spy mission + the % of culture you have in the city tile. Neither is the the thing you ask , but they are the thing you most of the times need to know in game
Thanks Rolo - I did d/l your game and looked at the culture cost for a few cities. The two I checked would add exactly the same culture ... that implies that they have exactly the same (or near enough) culture from all civs - is that a fluke or do I have the formula wrong?

Edit: I take it all back - I must have checked the same city twice. Just looked again and they are different - even took a city and got pretty close to how much culture was in there based on the formula. One last question (I think), what about dead civs ... does their culture count in the total?
 
Hi Ruff_hi

There is a name from the past I haven't seen in ages.
 
Updated the report ... please do not tl;dr on it ;)
I read it all! :p Looks nice.

IMPORTANT EDIT: We have a sticky situation with Shaka and France. We gathered a lot of war sucess from France and we can grab atleast 1 city from them in a peace deal, 2 if we go Orleans and Burgundian. The issue is that it will make Shaka to peace out too and we don't want that ...

MY take on this is to not make peace with France in the next set unless Shaka breaks from him. I say this because 2 of the cities from Shaka already rebelled and it is likely that atleast one flips in the next set. But we do really need a consensus on this one.
Well, Shaka is by far the least of our worries, so I'd basically leave him out of consideration. In all cases his cities should be ours by the time we finally crack the toughest nuts left (which already start to show some little cracks though :)). So I think the question is whether taking those French cities in a peace deal is good or not. If we think that speeds up the overall process against France, I'd go for it, regardless of Shaka.

My silly suggestion of the week is moving the palace for reduced EP cost. Somewhere in the report you said the cost against Ethiopia, or at least its capital, is very high, so I could see our palace go to Yeha or Lali. That should significantly reduce the EP cost against Ethiopia while roughly maintaining the same costs against the other AIs (at least on average). As EP is the bottleneck, I think it must be well worth it.
 
Ok finally got it. I'll start with the hour MM this evening and will post some ideas on the set later on.
Concerning Shaka: Is there any additional reason not to get back top peace with him except the city defenders? as far as I can see at least two of his cities are surrounded by our culture and therefore won't be able to build any unit for a loooooong time. So we should make sure we get both cities to size 1 and empty them. Afterwards we could take peace with him until it's time to go for his last city. In the end I'm sure we'll speed things up through taking peace for one (I won't take Burgundian as it's already nealy ours, surrounded by our culture and too won't be able to get renforced) of Gaulle's cities
 
If we take peace with De Gaulle, why wouldn't you take Burgundian? I would take it to have one less city to gamble on flipping.
Taking Orleans should hopefully get us started toward a path onto the culture monster of Paris.

We can't take direct peace with Shaka, since he is the vassal of De Gaulle.
 
One last question (I think), what about dead civs ... does their culture count in the total?
No, dead civs do not count AFAIK ... and to be honest, I'm not sure if barbs count as well ( I think they do, but haven't certainties in that issue

I read it all! :p Looks nice.
I know that long report is long ;) and that my first instict would be to read it in diagonal :blush: That is why I said that ...
My silly suggestion of the week is moving the palace for reduced EP cost. Somewhere in the report you said the cost against Ethiopia, or at least its capital, is very high, so I could see our palace go to Yeha or Lali. That should significantly reduce the EP cost against Ethiopia while roughly maintaining the same costs against the other AIs (at least on average). As EP is the bottleneck, I think it must be well worth it.
That might be worthwhile, een if because it would probably also decrease spy movement time from cap to target ( since most of our targets are in the north now ). What do everyone thinks on this ?
Ok finally got it. I'll start with the hour MM this evening and will post some ideas on the set later on.
Concerning Shaka: Is there any additional reason not to get back top peace with him except the city defenders? as far as I can see at least two of his cities are surrounded by our culture and therefore won't be able to build any unit for a loooooong time. So we should make sure we get both cities to size 1 and empty them. Afterwards we could take peace with him until it's time to go for his last city. In the end I'm sure we'll speed things up through taking peace for one (I won't take Burgundian as it's already nealy ours, surrounded by our culture and too won't be able to get renforced) of Gaulle's cities

If we take peace with De Gaulle, why wouldn't you take Burgundian? I would take it to have one less city to gamble on flipping.
Taking Orleans should hopefully get us started toward a path onto the culture monster of Paris.

We can't take direct peace with Shaka, since he is the vassal of De Gaulle.
I think that there is no real justification for continuing the war with shaka besides cleaning cities, that is true. Anyway, it is expectable to be in war with him and france in 10 turns even if we peace out now, so it might be a good idea. That would also free gunships and aerial cover to use vs Brennus.

I disagree with you both in city choice BTW . I given a run on the game and the best possible combination of cities to get that DG will acept is .... Tours and Orleans :eek: ( unfortunately not Tours, Orleans and Burgundian, but let's not be too greedy :p ). Tours does not even have a majority of our culture and has more than 10 pop, so that is a major bonus. Taking Orleans will also open the path to attack Celtic Isca, a thing that would help us now that we will war Brennus. And like Thy says, Burgundian will eventually flip...

So, I change my mind: at best, end turn, kill some more frenchies and see if it is enough to get Tours, Orleans and Burgundian. But if you peace out now it is OK as well ... Tours alone is worth more than all the current Zulu cities :p
 
That might be worthwhile, even if because it would probably also decrease spy movement time from cap to target ( since most of our targets are in the north now ). What do everyone thinks on this ?
Moving toward any key target makes sense. The question is where are the majority of spies going?
I know moving to Pacal is useless, as three of the four key targets are in the west.
Close to any western capitol should help.


So, I change my mind: at best, end turn, kill some more Frenchies and see if it is enough to get Tours, Orleans and Burgundian. But if you peace out now it is OK as well ... Tours alone is worth more than all the current Zulu cities :p
I was seriously debating peace for just Orleans and Burgundian. Getting a city with decent pop seals the deal. I vote for peace with France soon. The only question is how soon.

That was part of my thought process when I took Vienne. I got a huge pop city that quickly became useful. Isolating two more Brennus cities and capitol access was a bonus.
 
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