RSG5 Emperor 20K

[Raliuven]

Now that RSG3.5 and 4 are underway, I am posting this to start RSG5 which will be a 20K attempt. I've never won by 20K so this will be interesting for me.

This will be a C3C game.

RSG3.5 is already the Babylonians, so I am inclined to go with something else. It seems to me that religious is probably the way to go for cheap temples? Or do we go with scientific and go for cheap libraries and universities even though libraries come much later in the AA?

Also, what makes for a 'good' 20K starting location? River and some hills? Should we be selective for our starting position rather than taking the first start that generates?

Finally, the Roster:

Roster
Raliuven (Playing)
CKS (on deck)
splunge the 2nd (warming up)
Elephantium
Toxicman007
TheOverseer74

Enemies

Spoiler :

Celts (Agricultural/Religious) UU: Gallic Swordsman (replaces swordsman: 3/2/2 Shields: 40)
Ottomans (Scientific/Industrious) UU: Sipahi (replaces cavalry: 8/3/3 Shields: 100)
Sumeria (Scientific/Agricultural) UU: Enkidu Warrior (replaces spearmen 1/2/1 Shields: 10)
Babylon (Scientific/Religious) UU: Bowman (replaces archer: 2/2/1 Shields: 20)
Russia (Scientific/Expansionist) UU: Cossack (replaces cavalry 6/3/3 Shields: 90 *Blitz*)
Inca (Expansionist/Agricultural) UU: Chasqui Scout (replaces scout: 1/1/2 Shields: 20 *Ignores Terrain*)
Hittites (Expansionist/Commercial) UU: Three-Man Chariot (replaces chariot: 2/2/2 Shields: 30 *Terrain Restriction*)

 

[Cyc]

Sign me up please.

 

[Toxicman007]

Me too. Never even tried 20K before, but there's a first time for everything.

 

[Cyc]

I've won a few 20K victories back in the prior decade, but when I tried recently, I missed getting yhe ToA. I think someone leaked the plans to the AI.

 

[Raliuven]

Theoretically I could stage a 20K win. I just always get sidetracked by launching a spaceship or beating the AI into a blood pulp.

I was just thinking about this last night. As I normally go for Diplo or Space victory, the most important thing is to tech quickly and research was dictated by trade rather than by what brings in the culture buildings fastest. Teching only needs to happen fast enough that we always have the ‘next best thing’ on the horizon with a marketplace thrown in the mix at some point.

This brings me to the discussion about starting locations and civs. I don’t know that CB is a deal breaker because we’ll want to put out a settler right away to build all those other cities we may want to protect our 20K. We can then use that time to search CB if we can’t just find or trade for it. Science would be nice to reduce the library & university costs and for the free tech. Ottomans are nice because we get science and industrial so we can make improvement fast to increase our productivity. Or we go science/agricultural and then we have Sumeria (Enkidu Warrior for cheap spearmen). Or we skip all of that and go Mayans for agricultural/Industrial and population and improved tiles will outweigh the cost reductions?

I can roll up some start locations to discuss but we need to settle on a tribe first.

 

[CKS]

I'm in.

For a tribe, I vote for scientific, not religious.

EDIT:
I'd rather play Conquests than PTW. PTW is best won by MGL leader fishing. Conquests is building and hoping for SGLs.

Assuming Conquests, here are my thoughts.

Scientific tribes have increased chances for great scientific leaders, and so are a big deal. Cheap libraries are also nice, as are the free techs.
Religious tribes get cheap temples, which are nice.
Other cultural buildings come after we switch to the republic, so we should be cash-rushing them. Cheaper is nice, but it is a cash-flow issue, not a when-can-we-build-it issue.

What difficulty level are we talking about? Below emperor, 20k in the capital is the way to go. Above emperor it gets tricky with no prebuild. At emperor, I usually prefer the capital, but I often end up losing a ton of shields at least once.

Below emperor we can probably take the first start and win with it; at emperor or above we should be selective. For the 20k city, I'd like a river, some hills or mountains, some BG and some sort of bonus tile - cows and elephants would make my day, but any food bonus or lux is okay. On the coast is nice, because the Colossus turns into really nice tourism income later on.

20k is really a fast research game, because Shakespeare's Theater, railroads, and factories change the game. If you build half the middle ages wonders after you are in the industrial age, you build them three times as fast.

I like Korea as a tribe. Scientific and commercial goes well together, and they start with alphabet. The Greeks have the same traits, but for some reason I don't like them as much. I also like the Byzantines - scientific and seafaring means they start on the coast with alphabet. Coastal means early Colossus.

I don't always put out an early settler. With an early contact, you can chop a temple and build the Colossus while you grow in situations where you don't have gobs of extra food.

 

[Raliuven]

CKS - welcome (and welcome everyone, I forgot to post that earlier ). I was hoping you would join! C3C is fine by me and I don't think anyone else indicated a preference. And we are looking at Emperor unless I hear otherwise from the team.

This may require me to re-examine what I consider to be 'good traits'. Scientific/Commerical are good. Seafaring - great on a water board but otherwise not so useful? But I get your point on the Colossus. But not industrious? I would think the faster improved tiles would make a big difference?

Regarding governments - I presume republic will be out government of choice for our peaceful 20K civ? We go straight for the slingshot?

Map settings? No barbs? Size - Standard? I don't like to go less than Standard but I am open to debate.

 

[Cyc]

Emperor is fine, I usually stick to Monarch C3C. I've won with Babylon. It was the obvious choice for me. But if they're out, I would say the Mayans. Another old favorite. You have the Industrious for quick improvement and the Agricultural for fast growth. Quicker mines and more Workers faster to build them. Plus the growth of the 20K city is quicker, plus the expansion of the surrounding Empire to protect it. With that growth and fast roading comes the commerce to provide faster Science.

I never have liked coastal starts. But then again, I usually make my 20K city my second city. I always pop out an quick Settler (in any game). No need to eplore, as the Capital will expand borders in 5 to show to local terrain. Pick a starting location with a cow on grass by a river. When the Capital borders expand, you should be able to pick a location by the Hills and Mountains. It's quicker to mine and road Hills than Mountains, so that's what I prioritize.

Using the Capital as the 20K city is too limiting for me, as CKS implied. But for me it goes beyond the pre-build situation. The Capital has the Cattle, which is the main focus for choosing the starting location. You need the Capital to build Settlers and Workers. It can also build the low Culture Wonders in times of plenty, or take over the production of another Wonder in a risky situation. But I wouldn't want to trap the Capital into a 20K situation.

Republic is the only way to go, but as far as a sling shot, your research should be based on always having a back-up Wonder to go to for when you finish the current one or get beat building it. Republic is great, but the speed with which you get to it doesn't outshine always having a Wonder to go to.

Did I touch the points you were looking at?

Oh, and if my 20K city does wind up on the coast, which it has at least once, the Colossus is a secondary Wonder for me. Just something I keep up my sleeve in case I need it.

 

[CKS]

Industrious is a great trait, but I prefer starting with alphabet. Not only does it get us to the republic quickly, but it is great for trading. That said, 20k can be won with any tribe, and I'll be happy to play with any tribe.

I'm fine with 20k in the 2nd city.

If we meet some neighbors, I'd go straight for the slingshot at emperor. Otherwise, we can slot in CB without losing the slingshot. If we need to fit in masonry or mysticism, we may need to take philosophy before code of laws.

 

[Cyc]

Industrious is a great trait, but I prefer starting with alphabet. Not only does it get us to the republic quickly, but it is great for trading. That said, 20k can be won with any tribe, and I'll be happy to play with any tribe.

There's always France. Commercial and Industrious. A very good civ with defensive UU. Gives us Alpha and Masonry. The sling and the Pyramids.

America gives us the Industrious with Expansionist. An explorer can net us all sorts of techs while we're building the Pyramids.

Ottomans and the Hittites are good, too.

If we meet some neighbors, I'd go straight for the slingshot at emperor. Otherwise, we can slot in CB without losing the slingshot. If we need to fit in masonry or mysticism, we may need to take philosophy before code of laws.[/QUOTE]
I do like like cheap Temples.

 

[LKendter]

lurker's comment: It has been ages since I played 20K and Civ3.

You really want your second city to be the 20K city. Preferably on a river / lake, and at least one good food file to works some hills. The palace as a overflow is really important.

What the wonders do for you isn't as important as the culture.
Get city #2 to high pop even if that means upping the luxury tax.
An extra wonder or two built in time to get the double effect is really nice.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

I just finished a game so if you need a body to fill the roster, I'll be happy to join. I've won by 20K on Emperor before, so have half a clue.
I agree a coast helps for collosus, contacts, trade. If I remember, luxuries are pretty key with a huge population culture city (granted happiness wonders and happiness cultural buildings help) so if I were making a wish list, starting on an inlet with a mixed terrain with a lux would be great. Granted, if the plan is to make the 20K city the second city, we can pick and choose where to settle it within reason.
Curious what folks think about warring and empire building for a 20K victory. I tended to have just a few cities and avoid war.

 

[Raliuven]

I just finished a game so if you need a body to fill the roster, I'll be happy to join. I've won by 20K on Emperor before, so have half a clue.
I agree a coast helps for collosus, contacts, trade. If I remember, luxuries are pretty key with a huge population culture city (granted happiness wonders and happiness cultural buildings help) so if I were making a wish list, starting on an inlet with a mixed terrain with a lux would be great. Granted, if the plan is to make the 20K city the second city, we can pick and choose where to settle it within reason.
Curious what folks think about warring and empire building for a 20K victory. I tended to have just a few cities and avoid war.

It would be great to have you on the roster and that should fill it up and we can get started! Only . . .

Final answer on Civs by majority vote. So far suggestions have been:

1. Korea
2. Byzantines
3. Mayans
4. France
5. America
6. Ottomans
7. Hittites​

If each player would like to chime in with their top three picks in order of preference then I will select the hightest point count at the end and post a few starts to pick over. If you are 100% dead set against a civ, let me know that too.

 

[Cyc]

If we are playing on a large map (say 60% water) then I would say ~
America
Mayan
France

If this is going to one of those little or standard maps ~
Mayan
France
Ottoman

 

[TheOverseer714]

I will watch for now, but you can make me a pinch hitter. You need a good starting spot, on the sea with a river and lots of bonus grass. A gold hill would be a bonus, as would Cows, Wheat and Luxes. In many ways, your second city will be more important as a "feeder " to supply workers for fast growth. I recommend a Scientific or Religious tribe with a nice second trait. Persia and the Ottomans are top-tier, but Korea or India have nice pluses. Oddly enough, this is one place where some "bad trribes" can shine. Religious tribes have cheap temples, and a very short anarchy (no culture accrues during anarchy), and start with CB. Arguably, an interesting tactic may be join your worker and build a temple immediately. Another idea is pop a goodyhut nearby with your worker before you build any warriors, thus guaranteeing a good result. Anyway, good luck!

 

[splunge the 2nd]

I've never played as Korea, Mayans or America so my vote goes to any of those, not necessarily to make the win easier, but for variety.

 

[Toxicman007]

Voting for Korea.

 

[CKS]

I'm going to abstain. I'm fine with any of them.

 

[Verarde]

lurker's comment: Never gone for a 20K victory before. I would like to try that in a solo game before a SG. I'll be watching though.

 

[LKendter]

lurker's comment: Starting playing a 20K game as France last night. Barely started, but got temple and Pyramids so far.