RTW realism

[ZooMan2]

Let's see, i want to add unique marine (assuming the marine is already a unit, i don't remember i haven't played in a while) and paratrooper units, unique naval units, techs to correspond to the new units.

Absolutely - particularly the naval units - does anyone know where I can find WWII aircraft carier units for the US and Japanese? I didn't see any under the units but maybe I missed them. It drives me nuts to have modern carriers in 1936!

Re Marines, standard Marines are in the game but custom ones would have to be created - not my forte but if someone builds them I can get them in the game.

As for the techs, I think they are already there - the unigue units would just need to be added to the appropriate tech.

 

[ZooMan2]

As for Open Play, one of the bigger problems I had was small nations suiciding, DoW-ing on everyone around at once. I still don't know quite why they do that, does anyone else? I may look into it, at some point.

I'm not sure about the "why" (probably the AI's crazy logic) but one of the variations I was looking to put in was to make them neutral and not allow them to declare war at all. They should be able to enter into pacts as they did but only the major players would be able to initiate an attack or declare war. Unfortunately I still don't know how to make those changes but I'm still looking.

Anyone who knows, any help will be appreicated.

 

[ZooMan2]

Here's the dl of my version:http://www.atomicgamer.com/file.php?id=73884

OK - got it and started a game - the Maginot changes look pretty cool but I think you may have overloaded with bunker units ... we'll see, I just started the game to make sure I got a working download - I'll see how it plays out before judging it.

Thanks for loading this up! I'm looking forward to playing it.

Cheers!

 

[Omathaar]

Thanks for loading this up! I'm looking forward to playing it.

No problem! Hope it's useful.

Absolutely - particularly the naval units - does anyone know where I can find WWII aircraft carier units for the US and Japanese? I didn't see any under the units but maybe I missed them. It drives me nuts to have modern carriers in 1936!

Yeah, that'd be awesome! I'd love to see Battleships and such that look appropriate for each nation too, and German U-boats etc. And unique Marines too. Even if their stats are all the same, it'd still be cool just for them to look unique

I'm not sure about the "why" (probably the AI's crazy logic) but one of the variations I was looking to put in was to make them neutral and not allow them to declare war at all. They should be able to enter into pacts as they did but only the major players would be able to initiate an attack or declare war. Unfortunately I still don't know how to make those changes but I'm still looking.

That would be perfect, if the minor nations couldn't declare war, but could still have war declared on them. I wonder if there's anything in Python that could do that?

 

[Omathaar]

Sorry for this ginormous post! But here a few possible units we could use (stats can be whatever). Let me know which ones you all like, and I can put them in...

Aircraft Carrier?

Aircraft Carrier? (seaplane tender)

British Aircraft Carrier

British

Random Transport

Russian

Alternate Russian

Infantry/Marines

Alternate Atom Bomber (uses same A-Bomb animations)

American, British, and French Paratroopers

More detailed infantry!

German ship (the one on the right, the Bismarck - the one on the left is WWI)

British BB

Japanese BB

Anti-tank infantry

British Destroyer

French Sub

Japanese Sub

American Sub

German Sub (tho I kinda like the basic sub in the game as a German sub)

Russian Sub

British Sub

German Jet Bomber! (so it's not the same thing as the 262!)

British Cruiser

German Paratrooper

Flamethrower! (doesn't have to be paratrooper)

Would we want to use these? Defensive only, 1 move, something like that?

Also, there are lots of great graphics for unique Great Generals! (wouldn't be hard to implement at all) Great Nazi Generals, Russian, British, etc...

One last thing, I was wondering: should we make normal fighters and bombers less effective against ships (bombers less than they already are), and have a new Torpedo Bomber plane that's good against ships? (Or, if you think, we could leave normal fighters and bombers as-is and just make the Torpedo Bomber better against ships?) I've found torpedo bomber graphics already

 

[ZooMan2]

Sorry for this ginormous post! But here a few possible units we could use (stats can be whatever). Let me know which ones you all like, and I can put them in...

Me - I want them all! But I'm a pig for detail! Seriously, that is a lot of work but I think they all have a place in the game and would add a lot of realism and color. I'd start with the battleships and carriers and the flamethrower - the last of which was a critical part of how the Americans cleared out the japanese from their island fortifications. Speaking of which, you should create Maginot like defensive postitions the Japanese could build for their island defenses in 1944-45.

Also, there are lots of great graphics for unique Great Generals! (wouldn't be hard to implement at all) Great Nazi Generals, Russian, British, etc...

Great idea - go for it!

One last thing, I was wondering: should we make normal fighters and bombers less effective against ships (bombers less than they already are), and have a new Torpedo Bomber plane that's good against ships? (Or, if you think, we could leave normal fighters and bombers as-is and just make the Torpedo Bomber better against ships?) I've found torpedo bomber graphics already

I'd go for creating dive bombers and torpedo bombers but the Japanese torpedo bombers are much more effective up until late 1943 when the Americans finally realized they had defective torpedos! And both bombers should be carrier based as well as land based.

Thanks for taking the time to find and post all of those links!

Cheers!

 

[Omathaar]

How do you think the dive bombers should work in-game? As separate from torpedo bombers, I mean

 

[Omathaar]

I'm actually starting to wonder if dive bombers and torpedo bombers should be separate from normal bombers. Normal bombers were used for so many different purposes, there usually weren't dedicated dive bombers or torpedo bombers separate from "normal" bombers. Maybe "Torpedo Bomber" should be a promotion at most?

 

[MajorWinters]

Holy Crap, this is the most posts i have ever had on a thread i have started,
OK first things First- GREAT unit skins, i would love to have your help on making the new units,
Second- It seems that people are getting away from the original purpose of this thread, to make the CURRENT units in the game more realistic, in terms of strength and abilities, we can deal with adding new units and changing skins later. So everyone research the historical abilities of all the units in the RTW mod and come up with what you think the strengths and abilities of the units and post them in a single post, you don't have to post all at one time, post a little at a time if you have too, in the mean time i will continue posting th current strengths of the units i wish to change on that post i already have going.
I really appreciate the interest that everyone is taking in this and thank you for offering your help, hopefully we'll be able to do this good.

 

[Omathaar]

Realism is something we care a lot about, I guess MajorWinters, do you think you could give a general overview of what changes you think need to be made for units, not according to stats, but just according to the prob you see? Like, "Stukas need to be weaker vs. fighters but not vs. land units" sort of suff. That helps me figure it out more.

And I'm working on putting the new skins in the game, I think you'll like em

 

[VeteranLurker]

Have you guys read the other relatively recent threads about modifying the existing-unit parameters? THere was a big discussion about this prior to the final release of UE 1.1, and another discussion in the thread by Kiwitt. THere were earlier discussions as well, in the add-on-pack threads. Why reinvent the wheel from scratch?

 

[Omathaar]

Yeah, I remember all Chamboozer's work on this subject But there still are some little things I've seen that need tweaking, and hence my request in the last post: I want to know what the problems are with the UE model (ie, I think Chinese infantry need to be stronger defense but not attack [I know I haven't really made my case there yet], maybe Stukas really should be weaker vs. fighters while still strong vs. land, etc), cause boozer already put up reasoned stats for everything. I want to know what holes are left, in the same way Kiwitt gave reasons for his changes, not just another stat chart from scratch. Of course, kudos to MajorWinters if you do want to make a new one from scratch but just discussing the problems rather than the stats at the moment may be more efficient. Maybe we will end up needing to change every single unit, but either way, I first just want to hear the reasons behind potential stat changes, so I'm more informed on what our new stats could be

 

[Dale]

You should start from Chamboozer's work, since UE is set to those stats.

 

[MajorWinters]

The reason i started this thread was to find if there were some people who would help me in changing the game to make it absolutely realistic, and add some units. I had already looked at some of the other workings on this but most were concerned about balencing, not all though. I was really just hoping to post realistic stats for units have some people who can mod apply them and then have them post the file for everyone who wants to use it. As i said before i will continue my list, then once a universal agreement is achieved (or not) i will post the new stats and then its up to the modding people to fix it up add any of their own skin changes and then post the file.

 

[Omathaar]

Sure, give us your stat ideas

About "balancing," tho, I don't think many people are trying to make the type of balanced mod where you have an equal chance of winning no matter who you play. A lot of other games are that way (Civ in general is that way) but RtW never really has been. In RtW terms, "balance" generally means you have a historically appropriate chance of winning, depending on who you play. It's better to be Britain than Austria. An unbalanced RtW game is where civ strengths are not appropriate (like if France always overran Germany early on, that'd be unbalanced) In a perfect RtW-style balance, civs would interact appropriately relative to history. Isn't that just the kind of thing you're going for?

But we still have to take more into account than just the strength of individual units. Even if all the units have historically perfect stats, the game won't play historically if the countries' social and economic conditions aren't cared for. But your plans for making realistic units, together with plans for making the rest of the game realistic, can make for a brilliant simulation! So give us your stats, and we'll give you our stuff and implement the stats we all agree on. Chamboozer did some great work, tho, with good reasoning behind his stat choices, so (if you haven't already) it is smart to look at them. But you pump out what stats you think are good, and let's discuss em!

As for me, I've got some sweet skins coming for Great Generals (I'm excited about the tweaking I did of a German General), and UUs for Battleships, subs, paratroopers (this'll take a few days at the very least tho ) and some other stuff. Also putting in Mines and wondering about making a minesweeper boat, as well as a sub-aircraft carrier. And I'm gonna do early, improved, advanced, and modern aircraft carriers, each more advanced model being stronger and able to hold more planes. And I think I want to make ships and planes non-upgradeable, like tanks.

Let me know if any of you think I should do something differently

 

[ZooMan2]

You should start from Chamboozer's work, since UE is set to those stats.

OK - where do we find it? Does anyone know or have a link to it?

 

[ZooMan2]

Have you guys read the other relatively recent threads about modifying the existing-unit parameters? THere was a big discussion about this prior to the final release of UE 1.1, and another discussion in the thread by Kiwitt. THere were earlier discussions as well, in the add-on-pack threads. Why reinvent the wheel from scratch?

Nope - haven't seem them - what were the thread names and approx when posted?

I agree about not reinventing the wheel though.

 

[ZooMan2]

I'm actually starting to wonder if dive bombers and torpedo bombers should be separate from normal bombers.

Check out virtually any history on the war in the pacific - there was a big difference at the start of the war when the navy and army each had their own air corps although from 1945 on naval aircraft became less specialized and fell into three categories - fighters, fighter-bombers and bombers.

Normal bombers were used for so many different purposes, there usually weren't dedicated dive bombers or torpedo bombers separate from "normal" bombers.

Well I hate to disagree but this is not really true - at least not in the Pacific and not for naval aircraft - see the battle of Midway as example where the torpedo bombers were slaughtered but pulled the fighter cover down to the deck and left the sky clear for the dive bombers who sank all four of the Japanese carriers. Torpedo bombers were areodynamically built to fly "low & slow" while dive-bombers were built to be able to dive nearly verticle ... compared to the B-17, B-24 or Lancaster which were essentially high-altitude bombers. And while torpedo bombers could be configured to carry bombs for close air support missions, this was not what they were designed for and not their primary mission.

In Europe it didn't make that much difference although the Stuka's were feared at the start of the war, but against ships, torpedo bombers and dive bombers were very effective while the B-17s were complete ineffective.

From a "realism" standpoint the lack of naval specific bombers in Civ IV has always been a bit unrealistic although it simplifies the tech and unit tree a lot.

Maybe "Torpedo Bomber" should be a promotion at most?

This could be interesting but I'd like to see this as an option for a naval fighter-bomber.

 

[Omathaar]

Check out virtually any history on the war in the pacific - there was a big difference at the start of the war when the navy and army each had their own air corps although from 1945 on naval aircraft became less specialized and fell into three categories - fighters, fighter-bombers and bombers.

Well I hate to disagree but this is not really true - at least not in the Pacific and not for naval aircraft - see the battle of Midway as example where the torpedo bombers were slaughtered but pulled the fighter cover down to the deck and left the sky clear for the dive bombers who sank all four of the Japanese carriers. Torpedo bombers were areodynamically built to fly "low & slow" while dive-bombers were built to be able to dive nearly verticle ... compared to the B-17, B-24 or Lancaster which were essentially high-altitude bombers. And while torpedo bombers could be configured to carry bombs for close air support missions, this was not what they were designed for and not their primary mission.

In Europe it didn't make that much difference although the Stuka's were feared at the start of the war, but against ships, torpedo bombers and dive bombers were very effective while the B-17s were complete ineffective.

From a "realism" standpoint the lack of naval specific bombers in Civ IV has always been a bit unrealistic although it simplifies the tech and unit tree a lot.

This could be interesting but I'd like to see this as an option for a naval fighter-bomber.

Sweet thanks for setting that straight. I was a little disappointed at the idea of torpedo bombers not being separate planes. Do you have ideas of which planes we should use for: 1) regular bombers (should there be multiple types of these too? Hvy bombers, etc?) 2) dive bombers, and 3) torpedo bombers, for each major civ? I think MajorWinters and I don't care about keeping the tech and unit trees too awful simple!

 

[MajorWinters]

Could someone tell me how to change unit strengths, movement range, aircraft range, and special stats (like +10% effectiveness vs Armor units etc.) and here is a list of new units i would like to add: Unique marine and paratropper units for Americans, British (paratroopers only), Germans, Japanese (marines only), POSSIBLY unique naval units for the Americans, British, Germans, Japanese, Italians, French, and i believe that is it. If someone could make at least the skins for these units and some basic stats and post them on this thread i would be very grateful.