Ruleset clarification: Investigations, Spies and Spaceships - oh my!

[blackheart]

Or simply put, in peacetime FA does espionage, in wartime Military does espionage.

Then that gives the Military too many powers and destroys the balance.

 

[Strider]

I prefer to keep it simple and leave all the espionage to Foreign Affairs as per Ravensfire's proposal, after all Trade has all trade and doesn't hand over trade of science to the Science Minister. Although when I look back on the description for Science: "responsible for all tech aquisition" this could be read that Science already has control of gaining techs through both trade and spying as well as straight research.

Your example isn't that good, as a large majority of the time, trading techs also involves trading lux's etc. Whereas the science minister stealing a technology, has very little effect on any other department, except his.

 

[Ashburnham]

I agree with Furiey. Keep it simple, keep it efficient. Espionage is a foreign affair, so let's give it to Foreign Affairs.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Your example isn't that good, as a large majority of the time, trading techs also involves trading lux's etc. Whereas the science minister stealing a technology, has very little effect on any other department, except his.

Then think of it this way, Strider. Any science department with any self-respect would never stoop to stealing a tech; they would rather discover it themselves. Besides that, scientists are not covert ops with some CIA-style background. They are confined to the lab making miracles from scratch.

Any underhanded procurement of tech would have to be done on some international level, and I would prefer it be done through some rogue branch of the FA department. More to the point, I would rather we not do it at all.

 

[Ashburnham]

In the interest of getting this worked out, let me present a final proposal (additions to the original Constitution are in red)...

              1.  The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be 
                  responsible for all domestic initiatives, worker allocation, 
                  as well as the distribution of funds, as prescribed by law.
              2.  The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
                  for matters involving treaties with foreign nations,[COLOR=Red] 
                  city investigations, and the placement of spies,[/COLOR]
                  and use of spies, as prescribed by law.
              3.  The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
                  military strategy and troop activities, as 
                  prescribed by law.
              4.  The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all 
                  trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources,
                  as perscibed by law.
              5.  The Minister of Science shall be responsible for all tech 
                  acquisition [COLOR=Red]and construction of spaceship parts[/COLOR] 
                  as prescribed by law.
              6.  The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the
                  keeping of the peace and the construction of wonders
                  as prescribed by law.

Are we all settled on this, or are there still issues to discuss?

 

[MOTH]

Ashburnham,
You should change part 6 to reflect the currently being polled constitutional change.

 

[mhcarver]

I'm willing to second the amendment to part 2 but not 5 because I do not believe science should be able to construct spaceship parts

 

[Black_Hole]

I'm willing to second the amendment to part 2 but not 5 because I do not believe science should be able to construct spaceship parts

science wouldnt be able to choose where and when to build spaceships, thats for the governors, but they would coordinate it and governors would need their permission to build the parts

 

[Ashburnham]

New proposal...

              1.  The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be 
                  responsible for all domestic initiatives, worker allocation, 
                  as well as the distribution of funds, as prescribed by law.
              2.  The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
                  for matters involving treaties with foreign nations, 
                  city investigations, [COLOR=Red]and the placement of spies,
                  and use of spies, as prescribed by law.[/COLOR]
              3.  The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
                  military strategy and troop activities, as 
                  prescribed by law.
              4.  The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all 
                  trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources,
                  as perscibed by law.
              5.  The Minister of Science shall be responsible for all tech 
                  acquisition [COLOR=Red]and construction of spaceship parts [/COLOR] 
                  as prescribed by law.
              6.  The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the
                  construction of wonders, as well as the analysis and         
                  maintenance of cultural borders.This official shall also be 
                  responsible for monitoring Japanatica's cultural level
                  against that of all rival nations.

Added the new part 6. However, I think the changes in 5 should stay. It's understood that Ministers can't assign building queues. The Science Ministry would be expected to work with the Governors in setting where and what parts to build. This addition is mainly to make sure spaceships are covered somewhere in the Constitution. If there is still objection to this, perhaps we could change "construction" to "coordination" or "organizing".

 

[Furiey]

Science is responsible for the construction of spaceship parts in the same way as Culture is responsible for the construction of Wonders. Both need the Governor to actually set the queue and can not override him. so I'm OK with 5.

For FA, wouldn't it be simpler to just say:

"The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for matters involving treaties with foreign nations and espionage"

as espionage covers everything from the placing of spies to using them for city investigations, stealing of techs, sabotage of production... and once we name one specifically, we should name them all otherwise the argument starts - is that excluded then?

 

[Ashburnham]

True, it would be simpler, Furiey. But perhaps "espionage and embassy missions" would be better, just to clear up any confusion that may result from embassies not being mentioned.

 

[Provolution]

Does it really matter, this ciscussion? The game is soon over, and we may not be allowed to use spies in the first place.

 

[blackheart]

Does it really matter, this ciscussion? The game is soon over, and we may not be allowed to use spies in the first place.

Yes it does matter. Giving up now isn't an option.

 

[Ashburnham]

Alrighty, hopefully all the nitpicking is finished and this can be submitted as a final draft...

              1.  The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be 
                  responsible for all domestic initiatives, worker allocation, 
                  as well as the distribution of funds, as prescribed by law.
              2.  The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
                  for matters involving treaties with foreign nations [COLOR=Red]as well
                  as all espionage and embassy missions [/COLOR]as prescribed by law.
              3.  The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
                  military strategy and troop activities, as 
                  prescribed by law.
              4.  The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all 
                  trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources,
                  as perscibed by law.
              5.  The Minister of Science shall be responsible for all tech 
                  acquisition[COLOR=Red] and construction of spaceship parts [/COLOR] 
                  as prescribed by law.
              6.  The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the
                  construction of wonders, as well as the analysis and         
                  maintenance of cultural borders.This official shall also be 
                  responsible for monitoring Japanatica's cultural level
                  against that of all rival nations.

Of course, if there still are qualms with the proposal, feel free to vent them.

 

[ravensfire]

nitpick #2 - please remain consistent, and highlight the change to the MoC in red. Given that all other changes are in red, the appearance is a stealth change, which I abhor.

Not to mention, is such an addition truly needed? Would not the maintenance of cultural borders include monitoring our levels against all other nations? It seems rather redundant.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Ashburnham]

Don't blame me, raven, that's the Culture description as it stands in the Constitution. Seeing as it's already been passed and set in the Constitution I didn't really see a need to highlight it along with the newer changes we're trying to get passed. But, anyway, are there any actual qualms with the wording besides the coloring? If not, I'm ready to send this on to the Judiciary as long as no one objects. Here goes the "proposed poll"..

Clarification of Espionage and Spaceship Jurisdiction

Should We Add the Changes in Red to the Ministry Descriptions in Article D of the Constitution?

              1.  The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be 
                  responsible for all domestic initiatives, worker allocation, 
                  as well as the distribution of funds, as prescribed by law.
              2.  The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
                  for matters involving treaties with foreign nations [COLOR=Red]as well
                  as all espionage and embassy missions[/COLOR] as prescribed by law.
              3.  The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
                  military strategy and troop activities, as 
                  prescribed by law.
              4.  The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all 
                  trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources,
                  as perscibed by law.
              5.  The Minister of Science shall be responsible for all tech 
                  acquisition [COLOR=Red]and construction of spaceship parts [/COLOR] 
                  as prescribed by law.
              6.  The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the
                  construction of wonders, as well as the analysis and         
                  maintenance of cultural borders.This official shall also be 
                  responsible for monitoring Japanatica's cultural level
                  against that of all rival nations.

- Yes
- No
- Abstain

 

[MOTH]

Hi Ashburnham,
I'll second this (note that 2nd's or 3rd's are needed for a constitutional changes). Send it off to the Judiciary as soon as Term V is underway.

 

[mhcarver]

as a citizen I'll third this , feel free to send it to the judiciary now or when term five starts

 

[ravensfire]

Ash - yup, forgot about the recent change - my bad. Brain cramp!

Looks good to me.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Provolution]

Pretty funny, you guys rather legislate the laws for Espionage (denying to research and trade the tech, and if we get it, some of you already argued against it) and spaceships (we are not going for a spaceship victory), but blatantly ignore we have three settlers just standing idle.