Running a SE in BtS

[futurehermit]

I've been running a CE for awhile now but tried some SE starts last night.

Monarch/Normal

In warlords on monarch I kind of felt that the AI didn't tech fast enough to really allow a SE to flourish. The bottom line is when you lightbulb some techs, ideally you want the AI to have good techs to trade you so you can keep teching. If the AI doesn't have techs then your general research stagnates for awhile while you lightbulb specific techs.

Well, in BtS it's even worse because the AI techs even slower!

So, that puts a serious wrench in things imo. I am finding self-research to be very important monarch/normal. So, I think if you want to run a SE that you should do so when you are able to get the pyramids (stone/chops) and instead of lightbulbing (beside specific techs like philosophy) you should build an academy and then settle GSs in your GL city. Combined with representation this will give you a respectable self-research tech pace and then you still have your pile of farms you can use for mass whipping during wartime.

Since the AI now builds more troops whipping becomes even more important if you want to take out an AI empire quickly.

Then if you want to go space you can eventually transition to CE. Or if you want to go dom you can try and wrap things up in the renaissance era as per usual. Cuirassiers are a decent assault unit.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Well, simply put, from BTS SE will base not really on specialist's bonuses, but rather on Great People they create. Golden Age for 60 turns and no lightbulbing is necessary

 

[futurehermit]

I guess that is something to consider: Beeline calendar, get the mausoleum, then churn out multiple golden ages in a row.

You would want a hybrid econ for that i guess though so your cottages get the extra $

 

[Guardian_PL]

To be honest, I think that any stategy can gain this huge advantage of a golden age. SE will give You +100% on GPP, but hammer and commerce bonus will be useful for army building, increased science, etc. etc.
And no anarchy is simply overkill. Spiritual leaders now fall down deeep behind any other traits, all what You have from them are cheap temples. I mean, GA from one (any) GP? You're laughing, it's not a big deal to wait say 5-10 turns, then start a golden age and You can switch freely. GA 8 turns long means You can have max 2 civic switches, but with Mausoleum it's three, and that's a LOT.

Despite that I love to run GA all the time and build everything like crazy I think it's a shame to kick Spiritual trait that badly. Right now it's right next to Protective...

 

[Dubzilla8]

To be honest, I think that any stategy can gain this huge advantage of a golden age. SE will give You +100% on GPP, but hammer and commerce bonus will be useful for army building, increased science, etc. etc.
And no anarchy is simply overkill. Spiritual leaders now fall down deeep behind any other traits, all what You have from them are cheap temples. I mean, GA from one (any) GP? You're laughing, it's not a big deal to wait say 5-10 turns, then start a golden age and You can switch freely. GA 8 turns long means You can have max 2 civic switches, but with Mausoleum it's three, and that's a LOT.

Despite that I love to run GA all the time and build everything like crazy I think it's a shame to kick Spiritual trait that badly. Right now it's right next to Protective...

Guardian, you talk like you can run a golden age for the entire duration of the game. A normal length game is 500 turns. A golden age, without the Mausoleum, is 8 turns. Not to mention each successive golden age is harder to obtain. Lets see....So, 1 GA = 8 turns, 1 GP. 2 GA = 16 turns, 3 GP. 3 GA = 24 turns, 6 GP. 4 GA = 32 turns, 10 GP. 5 GA = 40 turns, 15 GP. 6 GA = 48 turns, 21 GP. Is this getting excessive? 7 GA = 56 turns, 28 GP. Yes. 8 GA = 64 turns, 36 GP. It is. 9 GA = 72 turns, 45 GP.

Lets be serious here. The benefit of the civic switch is nice, but it in no way makes Spiritual a bad trait. Having that ability through an entire game is outstanding. Its not like Spiritual gets absolutely no benefit from running a golden age either. Actually, I hardly ever play spiritual but I won my last game with Asoka 170 turns before 2050. I think its pretty solid.

Edit: Typed all that and forgot to respond. Futurehermit, I think I remember you being a pretty big advocate of the SE in Warlords (could be wrong), I was thinking of trying it out myself. I was wondering if you had a general guideline for when to stop whipping due to the time it takes to re-grow population, or if you typically switch to CE as you suggest. If you do, is there a certain point you do this? Just curious, thanks in advance.

 

[futurehermit]

I switch to CE now mid-to-late game. SE just fades too much. However, if I go for world domination I stay with farms but stop worrying about tech at some point (unless I go for late-game dom based on large tech disparity...fun times).

Golden ages are very powerful late game and imo are worth the 4 or 5 great people needed to trigger them. It's an enormous impact. With the mausoleum it just becomes insane.

 

[jihe]

What really bugs me is Aesthetics. No more quick Philosophy, the changed the order so that both Aesthetics and Alphabet come higher on list. Now I often find myself feeling bad about lightbulbing these two with early GS's, seems such a waste.

 

[axident]

I've been running a CE for awhile now but tried some SE starts last night.

Monarch/Normal

In warlords on monarch I kind of felt that the AI didn't tech fast enough to really allow a SE to flourish. The bottom line is when you lightbulb some techs, ideally you want the AI to have good techs to trade you so you can keep teching. If the AI doesn't have techs then your general research stagnates for awhile while you lightbulb specific techs.

Well, in BtS it's even worse because the AI techs even slower!

So, that puts a serious wrench in things imo. I am finding self-research to be very important monarch/normal. So, I think if you want to run a SE that you should do so when you are able to get the pyramids (stone/chops) and instead of lightbulbing (beside specific techs like philosophy) you should build an academy and then settle GSs in your GL city. Combined with representation this will give you a respectable self-research tech pace and then you still have your pile of farms you can use for mass whipping during wartime.

Since the AI now builds more troops whipping becomes even more important if you want to take out an AI empire quickly.

Then if you want to go space you can eventually transition to CE. Or if you want to go dom you can try and wrap things up in the renaissance era as per usual. Cuirassiers are a decent assault unit.

SE's power is in huge gains from lightbulbing and backfilling.

The extra wonders, the extra tech Aesthetics, the slower tech rate (as you discussed), the improved golden age (free civic switching, +100% GP generation), Mausoleum, and the fact that you can pop GPs for golden ages = I've gone mostly to the CE side now, especially when Industrious.

I've also run SE with wondervilles, though, where my wonderville also has a ton of farms and is always running specialists. My capital is extremely heavily cottaged to take advantage of Bureaucracy, of course.

The wonders themselves rather than specialists alone give me a potluck of GPs, and I don't even mind getting so many great prophets from the new wonders, since I usually need to shrine multiple times; my current game features two cities with two religions each: Confu/Islam, Tao/Christian. (Too bad the RNG wouldn't put all four in one city which I would then wall street.) I also quickly captured a neighbor's unshrined Buddhist holy city which needed yet another prophet. Naturally, I spent most of the game at 100% science.

 

[JujuLautre]

Just a random thought, but I remember someone saying (perhaps you futurehermit) that, with GSc in a SE:
- at prince or lower, settle
- at monarch and upper, bulb

This is of course a rule of thumb, but still a first step. Now, if you say that bulbing is less usefull, what about settling the scientists to make an uuuuuber science city? In the long run, settling gives more raw beakers than bulbing, so perhaps it's a better way to go in your case.

I can't tell more, I don't have BTS yet and am only running my second successfull SE in my current game

 

[InvisibleStalke]

SE is definitely still viable in the late game (take it from someone who normally plays CE).

I love what Caste System + National Epic + National Park can do. Over 20 scientists in one city! First time I've ever had GPP over 200 per turn! Even late game I can spit out scientists regularly and with Caste system I can switch to 20 merchants or 20 artists to make sure I get enough variety to start golden ages.

I'm a big fan of delaying your golden ages until (a) an emergency when you need to pretend to be spiritual or (b) late game where you are working tons of tiles or maybe (c) to win the liberalism race which you otherwise might lose.

Just burning them off just because you can doesn't sound worthwhile to me - you miss out on the other uses of great people which are more valuable in the early game. Early on its a whole tech or 15 turns of research. A whole wonder. +18 research per turn for the rest of the game. +50% research in a city for the rest of the game etc.

Golden ages are more powerful later on, just as these other uses of great people are declining in value - imagine pushing the space race with a succession of three golden ages.

 

[axident]

SE is definitely still viable in the late game (take it from someone who normally plays CE).

I love what Caste System + National Epic + National Park can do. Over 20 scientists in one city! First time I've ever had GPP over 200 per turn! Even late game I can spit out scientists regularly and with Caste system I can switch to 20 merchants or 20 artists to make sure I get enough variety to start golden ages.

I'm a big fan of delaying your golden ages until (a) an emergency when you need to pretend to be spiritual or (b) late game where you are working tons of tiles or maybe (c) to win the liberalism race which you otherwise might lose.

Just burning them off just because you can doesn't sound worthwhile to me - you miss out on the other uses of great people which are more valuable in the early game. Early on its a whole tech or 15 turns of research. A whole wonder. +18 research per turn for the rest of the game. +50% research in a city for the rest of the game etc.

Golden ages are more powerful later on, just as these other uses of great people are declining in value - imagine pushing the space race with a succession of three golden ages.

The game is nonlinear, yet it is true that it's a waste of a GA when you are just starting out. As a rule of thumb, I settle everyone (or make them into shrines for holy cities or Academies or Scotland Yard if my capital already has 2+ super-spies) up until my free artist from Music, at which point I burn him.. and any other free artists I get.. for a golden age. After that, it's more settling, bulbing, etc. until I get another artist. The more great artists I get, the more I Golden Age.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

The game is nonlinear, yet it is true that it's a waste of a GA when you are just starting out. As a rule of thumb, I settle everyone (or make them into shrines for holy cities or Academies or Scotland Yard if my capital already has 2+ super-spies) up until my free artist from Music, at which point I burn him.. and any other free artists I get.. for a golden age. After that, it's more settling, bulbing, etc. until I get another artist. The more great artists I get, the more I Golden Age.

Fair enough - but you could also save that artist for when the golden age has more impact. I like the idea of having a GP on reserve - you lose the immediate benefit, but there are times that you really need a shot in the arm - eg when you are surprise attacked or when you just gained a key military tech and want to rush a lot of upgrades and produce a lot of units.

I agree on using artists for this though - not much else that excites me with an artist unless I am going for culture or at the very end of a domination run when I am looking for that land%.

 

[MrCynical]

SE is definitely still viable in the late game (take it from someone who normally plays CE).

As a long time CE advocate I have to agree that the SE is not only viable in BtS, but if anything has been strengthened. The reason is very simple; the food generating corporations, which can easily dump 4 or 5 extra specialists into all your cities. Even with the high maintenance from corporations (which it sounds like they may be changing?), you come out a long way ahead.

The national park also makes a very powerful late game specialist city, which works best under representation, and hence a more SE style economy.

On the CE side of the coin, golden ages are now easier to obtain (and may last longer if you can get the mausoleum), and the CE (particularly under universal sufferage) gets more from them than an SE.

I'm finding a hybrid setup where I use the food corporations to run more cottages than would normally be possible on some terrains, and a few specialists on top of fully cottaged cities works best. With the national park city acting as a second late GP farm I seem to get more than enough great people. Only slight snag is the choice between representation for the science, and universal sufferage for the hammers and cash rush. Cash rush in particular I find it very annoying to lose, particularly given how drowning in gold I seem to end up thanks to corporations.

 

[futurehermit]

True some changes have helped the SE. But have you considered some of the other changes that have helped the CE? One of the main ones for me is the slower tech pace. Much harder now to lightbulb and backfill...the AI has nothing to trade! Another thing though is levees/dikes. Man these things make riverside cottages under universal sufferage and the other CE civics absolute monster tiles.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

True some changes have helped the SE. But have you considered some of the other changes that have helped the CE? One of the main ones for me is the slower tech pace. Much harder now to lightbulb and backfill...the AI has nothing to trade! Another thing though is levees/dikes. Man these things make riverside cottages under universal sufferage and the other CE civics absolute monster tiles.

The new SE model seems to be built more around Golden Ages and GP settling than on lightbulbing & tech trading.

Lightbulbling and tech trading is still a viable option, but the payout isn't immediate anymore, since we don't see the lightbulbed tech traded away until many turns later.

I'm finding SEs and Warmongering much more enjoyable in BtS -- especially after Communism:

• All my GS's are settled in the Super Science city since lightbulbing is so much weaker and unnecessary. This city becomes the backbone of my Research.
  
  
• The National Park city is 'preserved' from day 1 and becomes the Wall Street/Scotland Yard Merchant farm (I typically make nice with a civ on the other side of the world for 3000+ runs facilitating mass unit upgrades).
  
  
• All other cities are Farmed / Workshopped / Mined to cap them at 20 pop for maximum production potential.
  
  
• The 'empty' slider is used to balance from WW. And as maintenance costs become burdensome, my mini production cities one-by-one convert to making instead of units.
  
  (BTW, BtS is applying +% modifiers before converting, and I don't remember that ... is this new?).

All of this combines to make a virtually unstoppable war machine like nothing I've ever run.

Ironically, Warlords was all about Culture & Space Wins for me. Now, in BtS, I like Warmongering a LOT more.

Go figure ...


-- my 2

 

[Percy]

[*]All other cities are Farmed / Workshopped / Mined to cap them at 20 pop for maximum production potential.

I apologize if i misunderstood: does that mean you actually are running scientists only in a selected few cities? So it would be a kind of "production economy" with 2-3 GP farms/money-making cities?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I apologize if i misunderstood: does that mean you actually are running scientists only in a selected few cities? So it would be a kind of "production economy" with 2-3 GP farms/money-making cities?

That is correct. 2-3 exactly, in fact, which is partly due to BtS's slower AI tech pace.

• National Park/Wall Street/Scotland Yard = Merchants & Spies
• Oxford/Academy = Scientists
• GP Farm = Scientists

The beauty of it is that if the need arises, a Farm/Workshop can be interchanged in a single turn with a stack of 6 Workers (Epic), so all of my cities [or the AI's 'old' cities] can be morphed at will within just a few turns to facilitate any increased / requirements.

And yes, I Farm over Towns, because by the time I'm done pillaging them, they're either gone or not worth keeping.

Every other city steady cranks out military units. Against most people's advice, I often run Pacifism even during my warmongering -- only switching to Free Religion or Theocracy when forced to (which also tends to make me say "hell yeah, now I can keep going!!! )

 

[Percy]

Interesting, i'll probably try this some time soon =)

 

[Auren]

I've also found that the SE has been strengthened. In warlords I would rarely "lightbulb" and so I think I found adapting to BTS very easy. Now it is all about settling. Ussally my super science city is making 50% of my research. I try not to make my capital my super science city and instead, if conditions allow, make it my GP farm, running bureaucracy I pump out wonders there during peace and if need be switch to units during a war. My only disappointment is that the AI oesn't ever settle any Great People and so when I conqurer thier cities I can't grab them

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah, I've been doing some settling as well and enjoying it frankly.

@Otak: How do you deal with emancipation later in the game? Culture slider?