Running a SE in BtS

Yeah, I've been doing some settling as well and enjoying it frankly.

@Otak: How do you deal with emancipation :( later in the game? Culture slider?

Too true. Emancipation is no joke in BtS, especially if it's the UN dictating it. In no particular order:
  • Keeping all my mini-:hammers: cities capped at 20 helps a lot with :mad: from WW & Emancipation.

  • The 'empty' :culture: slider remainst my primary weapon against Emancipation.

  • While on the warpath, subjugating the nations running Emancipation also helps. :evil:

  • During wartime, Jails and Nationhood become an even greater priority (as they tend to be anyway) ... Police State remains a last-ditch option only to be used in "mop-up" efforts.

  • To deal with the UN, I try to have a high population for securing the right votes and will sometimes convert my mini cities into farmland to boost myself to whatever number I need.

    Additionally, I make friends with at least one large civ to secure their vote for UN Secretary -- thus ensuring Emancipation never even gets voted on (I usually just keep re-voting for Single Currency, Non-Nuclear Proliferation or some other PASSED resolution).

  • Finally, Espionage. When in doubt, force a different Civic, lol.
 
Late game happiness wonders solve the emancipation problem for me. Getting electricity and radio early gets me two happiness wonders. Building eiffel tower gives me broadcast towers in all cities, so thats +4 happy. Add in the other happiness buildings inc forge and barracks under nationalism and my cities are swimming in happiness.

During war I have to crank up the culture slider, but I have to do that in any economy.
 
I'm a Prince Player and I've been playing Peaceful SE a lot with Phil Civs since Warlords and I've rarely ever trade. I can keep a reasonable tech rate with the SE My Slider maybe at 20% but If I'm running 2 Scientist all 8-10 of my cities plus building Research I can tech COLs in 6 turns and I was 2nd in tech just behind Mansa.

I only reason why I build research is because my Production is so high I build all my core buildings very quickly and I have nothing left to build except units and wonders and obviously walls... which i Never build lol!
 
How do you manage to have cities in the BC or very early AD with both a very high production and enough food to support two specialists?
 
How do you manage to have cities in the BC or very early AD with both a very high production and enough food to support two specialists?

lol well I switch between running specialist and Production, And I do a bit of whipping so after I whip and I'm close to my Happy cap I stagnate my city by running specialist to take up food, after 10 turns of whip of :mad: wears off I switch back to working mines and Food then when the thing I'm building requires 2 pop to whip, I whip then I Repeat.

Once I Finish CS and got enough GS for a liberalism beeline I Switch to Caste System & Bureaucracy and run Merchants to light bulb constitution with a GM. Obviously I take Nationalism as my free tech.

on Prince the Constitution tech is around 2800 beakers so I Require at least 2 GMs. Then of course I Switch to Representation and any other Relevant Civic.

Because I've opened up 3 new Civics, Nationhood, Free Speech, Free Religion. I generally go Nationhood.
 
How do you manage to have cities in the BC or very early AD with both a very high production and enough food to support two specialists?

It's actually pretty easy ... here's a scenario I see often:

Code:
Town Center    = +2 food / +1 hammers
Irrigated Rice = +3 food
Grassland Farm = +1 food
Grassland Hill = -1 food / +3 hammers
Grassland Hill = -1 food / +3 hammers
Specialist     = -2 food / (optional +1 to +4 hammers and/or +1 to +3 food)
Specialist     = -2 food / (optional +1 to +4 hammers and/or +1 to +3 food)

Total          = +0 food / +7 hammers (optional +2 to +8 hammers)

The Irrigated Rice can be interchanged with Fish, Wheat, Corn, Flood Plains, Pigs, etc.

The Specialists can be diverted for increased production in Forests, Workshops or Mines, and any hammer-maker can be diverted for growth or whipped away for "O-Sh.." production.

Under CoL, it's not uncommon for me to plop down a city with Fish, Pigs & Clam (i.e., on an island) to run nothing but specialists (5 at pop 8).

Basically, just pair up Grassland Farms and Food Resources with production tiles when you plot out your city.
 
What about an SE with an emphasis on trying to get an early Great Spy and taking a bunch of tech that way? I imagine the Great Wall is fairly likely to get a bit of a nerf in a patch, but using courthouses to try and generate Great Spies fairly early on could be beneficial (and allow a useful third specialist without Caste System). Anyone tried this?
 
My primary thought is this: The Pyramids are really more of a priority now. With all those GS's settled + Representation... you will likely be ahead of the AI since they substitute research for espionage (at least on Monarch).
 
BtS certainly changed FE.

The AI doesn't offer much for trading all the way to deity. This, however, is more of a "used-to such and such pacing" problem than a real hindrance to FE. When the AIs fall behind, wait and use the time to build the nice new wonders, units, whatever. The real deal behind slow AI teching is that the game is longer, which greatly favors warmongering (FE) and late-game economy transitions. Slow pace also favors anything with long-term payback, such as great specialists settled in the BCs.

FE used to be more leader-specific than CE. No Financial CE: you could live with 1 less commerce. No Spiritual/Philo FE was a pain. Now the GAs make Spiritual far less useful (and there is Cristo on top of that) and they also make the Philo bonus less unique.

The National Park is a major boost for late game FEs. Early Scientific Method is not so debilitating to FEs anymore, there's Biology, the FE holy grail, and there are also other nice little bonuses like the airship from Physics.

Levees? Levees work for everyone. A CE city with a levee is OK hammers, but a FE one can switch from Irrigations+Specialists to Irrigations+Workshops in the blink of an eye, greatly outproducing the former. Caste +1 hammer to workshops is pure BtS FE bonus. Moreover, both civics which protect from annoying foreign corporations are "FE" ones: Mercantilism (doh!) and State Property (better synergy with workshops). Consider Free Market (just as the new custom houses) is more of a boost for large FE cities than the smaller CE ones, and that the same goes for the health bonus from Environmentalism; the result is that each and every economic civic is more beneficial to FEs than to CEs. On the flipside, FE is more hurt by the increased pollution in BtS.

Emancipation unhappiness is dealt with the same way as before: the culture slider and acquiring more happiness resources than CEs thru warmongering. FE depends on having multiple resources, both happiness and health, to compete, because of the larger cities. If by midgame you don't possess most of them, you'd better go for a transition.

BtS comes with three fine FE leaders, actually, one leader and two civilizations: creative/philo Pericles for Greece; the Byzantines with Cataphracts (good warmongering unit on the path of boosting workshops) and Hippodrumes (the ultimate "abuse the empty culture slider" building); the Ethiopians with draftable UU and creative/organized (organized is much better now) Zara to lead them.

My first Ethiopian game on Immortal was a breeze, my FE totally outperformed and outfought the AIs. Couple of 1780AD screenshots follow.

Spoiler :

Notice the MFG

mfg.jpg



Wonder domination

top5.jpg





And here is my first BtS FE deity game, with Pericles:

Spoiler :

Athens, a National Park - Oxford combo, which I chose over Park - National Epic combo because of the philo bonus

athens.jpg



Ligurian, a Globe - NE GPP combo in peacetime and a drafting powerhouse in wartime

lig.jpg

 
OTAKUjbski would you consider posting an example game of your strategy ? I'd love to see it in action. Done by someone who actually knows what he's doing, instead of by me ;)
 
What about an SE with an emphasis on trying to get an early Great Spy and taking a bunch of tech that way? I imagine the Great Wall is fairly likely to get a bit of a nerf in a patch, but using courthouses to try and generate Great Spies fairly early on could be beneficial (and allow a useful third specialist without Caste System). Anyone tried this?

Yes. I think it's very overpowered. Other GPs can lightbulb you one tech, a Great Spy can get you 4 or 5 early on.
 
Yes. I think it's very overpowered. Other GPs can lightbulb you one tech, a Great Spy can get you 4 or 5 early on.
Lightbulb one tech worth 1500, or steal 4-5 techs each worth 200. :hmm:

Wodan
 
Lightbulb one tech worth 1500, or steal 4-5 techs each worth 200. :hmm:

Wodan

I'll take the 4-5 techs. The great thing about a spy is you can choose which techs you steal and you can spread your thefts over time.

Current game I had lightbulbed Philosophy and was beelining Liberalism. I didn't want to trade away Philo early as the AIs didn't have much in trade and I wanted to keep them away from Liberalism. But I badly needed currency, so I stole it from Saladin. A little later I noticed that Saladin had Literature but wouldn't trade it (monopoly tech) and wasn't building the GL. So I stole Literature and built the GL myself.

Then I noticed that Saladin and Mansa were both going for Astronomy and I really wanted to get there quickly too because there were a lot of islands to landgrab. I stole Metal Casting, traded civil service for machinery and something else for compass, stole Optics (which they wouldn't trade) and once they had Astronomy I could finally use Philo and Education to trade for Astronomy having saved them up and not traded them earlier for small techs.

In this game Saladin is turning into a monster (owns the Confucian shrine which half the world shares), and being able to steal his techs has been extremely valuable. I could steal techs that I did not have the GP to lightbulb and I can steal monopoly techs I can't trade for. Its absolutely great.

Its an early game advantage only - I can't imagine accumulating enough points for a late game steal - although someone might invest an espionage economy that puts 80% into the espionage slider and prove me wrong.
 
I switch to CE now mid-to-late game. SE just fades too much. However, if I go for world domination I stay with farms but stop worrying about tech at some point (unless I go for late-game dom based on large tech disparity...fun times).

Golden ages are very powerful late game and imo are worth the 4 or 5 great people needed to trigger them. It's an enormous impact. With the mausoleum it just becomes insane.

You may recall, I had asked in a thread awhile back about late game SE prior to the release of BtS. In Warlords, I would boom to an enormous tech lead and run out of steam and lose on levels above prince.

Enter BtS. I've played about 5 games running SE (sometimes what I would call a Quasi-SE) and have been absolutely steamrolling Monarch and won my first Emperor game. I don't know why, but it seems to work out. One of the Monarch games I ran a quasi SE with the Financial/Creative Dutch....not the best SE traits, but I felt like trying...and that game turned out probably the best. A few observations.

A. As the AI techs slow.....and Liberalism can get picked up upwards of 1300 A.D......I sandbag it a little earlier. One thing that this leads to is instead of slingshot to the usual Education/Lib/Nationalism...I'll go down another path. In a lot of my SE games...I have not founded any religions or gotten any great prophets. I made it a point to do both. Luckily, in three cases, a city with 6 or 7 forests surrounding it founded my religion. I dumped the Shrine and was sure to spread the religion. The payoff came later...after eventually struggling to get Wall Street (As well as M/B/G) and finally the NP. 7 forests later....mercantile....SoL...and 1 or 2 added Merchants from population leads to 11 Merchants and one heck of a cash cow city.

B. The other effect of Sandbagging a bit on early teching is that I can keep the slider down a bit more, actually involve myself in trading with the other civs, while stockpiling cash so that when I do overtake them, I can keep the slider high.

C. Pyramids used to be pretty much Nice to have...I almost think they are a necessity now. You need those extra beakers sooner than Constitution.

D. Hooking up happiness resources later is a must, because you must not allow yourself forced into emancipation. Ever. There are more ways to get ahold of great Engineers and other specialists late game (e.g. National Park) but still having the freedom to assign scientists and merchants at your leisure is needed.

E. Perhaps the easiest way to win is through Space Race. This may not sit well with some, but Wars are simply brutal with the War Wariness. What I have been doing is buddying up with one of the growing powers while beating on the others. Taking them into extinction in a war more than 25 turns can practically ruin your economy as the unhappy faces add up. Beating them into a point where they are forced to ask your "Buddy" for protection seems preferable. The last game I won.....at one point There was me, My "Buddy" Sitting Bull, and his six Vassels in the game. I kept gifting techs to him the entire late part of the game to keep him from attacking. I polished off two vassels that eventually broke away, and just made sure to keep good relations with him allowing me to virtually ignore military and do things like produce Gold and Science.

F. As your cities start to slow down in growth or reach happy caps....I entirely stagnate them....running as many specialists as I can. This of course, can hurt production as the low food high hammer tiles are the first to go, but things like Dike/Levee and Industrial Park can give a little hammer boost. Mining Inc. is almost a necessity as well.

G. Of course, Specialists need food. I will Beeline Biology at the expense of Military type techs (My "Arrangement" with my friendly civ may be in effect by this time.) and make sure to save a GM(?) for Sids or the Mills to pump more food.

H. No matter what, I try to run Pacificism in the mid game...even during periods of warfare....to keep the GP coming as fast as possible. Oddly, I've found that dumping an academy...something I have not done very much of prior....can also be helpful to crank up the science in the high science cities.

I. Mind you, I actually won one game via space race....1910 on prince without BUILDING a single cottage. I relied mainly on Shrine/Merchant income as well as some Spice/Dye/Gold/Silver resource cities for my cash. When I said I did not BUILD any cottage, I did inherit quite a few from war.

J. Edited. I forgot to mention that I make sure to go after almost all of the "Bonus" GP's at techs like Music. That Artist will pop my first golden age. Subsequent GA and GP (If another shrine will not be helpful) are never settled and always used to power the golden ages. I never hit more than 4 including the Taj Mahal GA.

Obviously there are better players on here with more SE (And simply Civ experience) and most of what I said is mostly already known. I just figured some more observations would help. I think that with some of the added buildings, wonders, and features (Corps, Espionage) that the SE could be alive and well, only with a slightly changed face.
 
I haven't had much success with SE tbh so far. I think I have to adapt to the new tech pace or something. My old approach of lightbulbing, trading, etc. just doesn't work now that the AI techs so slow. Without the pyramids I find that self-reseaching with specialists--while ok early--really starts to taper off in the mid-game before constitution. Maybe I need to prioritize constitution and then biology harder, I'm not sure.

But I'm not doing something right.
 
The early stage SE has definitely suffered from the poor AI tech pace. Lightbulbing is only economical if you can trade the result for multiple techs, which is now usually impossible. Self research is more important, and specialists simply don't cut it at that stage. The one slight edge I'd give it is that the Pyramids are slightly easier to get now.

The later stage can benefit from additional specialists, thanks to food corporations, but even there I find a hybrid economy (mostly cottage cities, some with extra specialists slung on top) fares better. Run representation most of the time, and flip to universal sufferage (sometimes assisted by Cristo Redentor) to buy a load of stuff every now and then). Lizzie really shines at this. Given how powerful her UB is now with corporations, I'd probably class her as the best leader for builder game.

The CE on the other hand benefits substantially from getting a second GP farm mid game (national park) and from the more common golden ages, and doesn't suffer so much from the poor AI tech pace.
 
Funnily enough, someone somewhere (i know, much too precise, huh ^^) made the same kind of statements, except arguing that BtS was now much more profitable to a SE.
Truth lies in the eye of the beholder, i guess ;)
 
Percy said:
Funnily enough, someone somewhere (i know, much too precise, huh ^^) made the same kind of statements, except arguing that BtS was now much more profitable to a SE.

Meaning me I guess ;) ? Now I've actually tried some more BtS SE games, and seen how badly lightbulbing suffers from the poor AI tech pace, my opinions of the SE have fallen back to where they always have been. I'm still figuring out the late game hybrid economy.
 
Meaning me I guess ;) ?

Haha, no, i didn't mean that. I really didn't remember, but maybe it was you ! ^^ In any case, i'd tend to think that it just means that you have many tools and always have a possibility to make good use of them, regardless of the type of economy you're focusing on.
 
I haven't had much success with SE tbh so far. I think I have to adapt to the new tech pace or something. My old approach of lightbulbing, trading, etc. just doesn't work now that the AI techs so slow. Without the pyramids I find that self-reseaching with specialists--while ok early--really starts to taper off in the mid-game before constitution. Maybe I need to prioritize constitution and then biology harder, I'm not sure.

But I'm not doing something right.

As I said before, I almost think that the Pyramids are a MUST to effectively run a SE in BtS. Of course, having to rely on getting a single wonder every single time hurts the strategy, but the good part is that the Pyramids are an early enough wonder that if you do happen to miss them you can cook up an alternative strategy. Of course, the GL was practically a must prior to this. It's kind of annoying to get it now due to the fact that you usually want to grab Alphabet...then you have to get through asthetics before going to lit.

Perhaps the Parthenon is more "Necessary" in the new SE, also. With the Golden Ages being a little easier to obtain, popping a usual bummer artist early on isn't that bad.
 
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