Running toward Bad Knees?

[Smellincoffee]

I walk four miles every morning and cycle several times a week, but I want to do more. I've considered running and want to do it -- and sometimes I throw in sprints to my walk -- but I've yet to make the leap to more regular running because I've heard so many people say it leads to the ruins of your knees. I know that may be tied to bad form or ill-fitting shoes, but what say the people of CFC? As much as I want to up the intensity of my routine, I don't want to do it at the expense of future mobility. I'd like to be physically active even when I'm a 'senior' -- and I know 70 year old women who are as active as I am now -- and don't want to be limited by knees and hips ruined by chronic abuse.

 

[Zelig]

Not a concern.

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1948208,00.html

 

[CavLancer]

I ran in the army when I was 17. When I got out I walked to work and back until I could afford a car that lasted a while. Then I walked to work and back until I could afford a car that worked a bit longer, etc. Knees are fine, cars break down. :b:

 

[warpus]

As you know from time to time I go on a long hike through some mountains that last days.

On my first such trip I had no problems, but on the second I eventually started feeling a pain in my left knee. I attributed it to the long hike and me basically overusing that part of my body. On my last trip I really injured my left ankle - it put me out of commission for about a year and a half. There was no "Ow, I twisted my ankle" moment or anything, it just started hurting one day on the trail, and hurt more and more on my trip. I aggrevated my injury one morning at a hostel too by stumbling out of the bathroom in the dark and forgetting that there was a 15cm drop in the elevation.

Anyway, I finally went to see someone about it after I returned from that last trip, because the pain was quite bad. The experts concluded that I "walk wrong" - the shape of my knees, feet, and the rest of my frame was off... because I have flat feet. This, according to them, affects the way not only the way the bones and muscles in my feet are angled, but also the way parts of my knees are angled, spine, and so on. This is usually not a problem, but basically certain body parts get an undue amount of pressure, because they're angled wrong, and the parts around them are angled wrong as well. So basically if I'm on a demanding 5 day long hike, eventually certain parts just can't handle it anymore, and apparently that's what happened on my last trip - a tendon just couldn't handle the repeated pressure and gave out, and then I couldn't play soccer for a year and a half. And apparently that's also what lead to my problems with my left knee on that other trip. This whole "you walk wrong because your feet are flat" thing messes up my whole body is angled in some places - it affects a lot more than just my feets. And usually I don't put any repeated pressure on these body parts, so I haven't noticed any real problems until I started to.

So basically now I wear orthodics in my shoes - this is supposed to angle everything just right and prevent those undue stresses to parts of my body. So maybe you should get your feet checked out and see if you could benefit from orthodics, because.. well, it's the reason I don't jog (reason #2, I'm lazy). My knees aren't perfect due to the wear over the years, so I just don't want to aggrevate them any more. No idea if your feet are flat at all, but if they are even a bit, orthodics would probably be a wise investment, especially if your health insurance will cover them.

 

[El_Machinae]

For knees, specifically, I like low-resistance, high-rep eccentrics. The easiest exercise I've found is to decend stair slooooowly (like, an 8 count per step) while keeping all of your weight on the back leg until you can smoothly transition.

 

[Synobun]

Following what warpus said, there's something you need to know.

Shoes matter. Shoes that are too wide, shoes that aren't wide enough, shoes that are too short, shoes that are too long... They can all contribute to not being able to move as awesome as you could. Shoes that fall into those categories will press on places they shouldn't, cause some pretty awful blisters, and give you very little support.

Ideally, you should use minimalist footwear like Vibrams but it's okay to use normal running shoes. You just have to make sure they fit properly.

 

[Zelig]

I really doubt the value of foot orthotics to be any better than a placebo in the vast majority of cases.

 

[warpus]

I really doubt the value of foot orthotics to be any better than a placebo in the vast majority of cases.

What makes you say that?

We'll see how much it helps me during my next long hike, which mind you might not happen for a while. If what the experts were telling me is true though, parts of my body were putting up with pressure they were not "designed" to put up with, leading to problems. With everything angled a lot better, this should no longer be the case.

Do you think orthodics are a scam or something? Wonder where that sentiment is coming from

 

[Zelig]

What makes you say that?

We'll see how much it helps me during my next long hike, which mind you might not happen for a while. If what the experts were telling me is true though, parts of my body were putting up with pressure they were not "designed" to put up with, leading to problems. With everything angled a lot better, this should no longer be the case.

Do you think orthodics are a scam or something? Wonder where that sentiment is coming from

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/health/nutrition/18best.html

 

[Synobun]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/health/nutrition/18best.html

All that says is that what works for one person might not work for another.

Don't really see how that disproves the entire concept. Seems like a rather reasonable problem to me. Bodies are different, injuries are different, issues are different. What works for one won't work for another. That's pretty much the case for just about anything man-made that is meant to assist human mobility.

 

[Zelig]

Sure, wear orthotics if you want, but if you're paying "experts" for them rather than just trying them at random, you're throwing your money away.

 

[Kyriakos]

I never run, although i walk up to three times per day for reasonable distances (up to 2 kilometers, but mostly quite less than that). I would not think there is any benefit in running in regards to staying healthy.

Maybe once (or rarely twice) a week i walk for around 3 kilometers in one go.

 

[warpus]

Sure, wear orthotics if you want, but if you're paying "experts" for them rather than just trying them at random, you're throwing your money away.

From the article:

Seamus Kennedy, president and co-owner of Hersco Ortho Labs in New York, said there was an abundance of evidence — hundreds of published papers — that orthotics can treat and prevent “mechanically induced foot problems,” leading to common injuries like knee pain, shinsplints and pain along the bottom of the foot.

“Orthotics do work,” Mr. Kennedy said. “But choosing the right one requires a great deal of care.”

I trust an orthodontists opinion of which one I should wear more than my random selection, especially since mine were custom fitted specifically for my feet. My guy seemed to take special care to make sure that I was getting set up with the right type of support - the special care that the article talks about. Mind you, I have no idea if what he set me up with is actually working or not, as I have no idea if he did a good job making the selection for me. But I'd rather he do that than me picking one randomly, seems to make a lot more sense.

As for cost, my orthodics were 100% covered. But a discussion about the effectiveness can't hurt

 

[Kyriakos]

From the article:



I trust an orthodontists opinion of which one I should wear more than my random selection, especially since mine were custom fitted specifically for my feet. My guy seemed to take special care to make sure that I was getting set up with the right type of support - the special care that the article talks about. Mind you, I have no idea if what he set me up with is actually working or not, as I have no idea if he did a good job making the selection for me. But I'd rather he do that than me picking one randomly, seems to make a lot more sense.

As for cost, my orthodics were 100% covered. But a discussion about the effectiveness can't hurt

Actually, orthotics have nothing to do with an orthodontist. The first is special footware designed to help your feet keep their natural formation in the lower part:

An orthodontist is a dentist.

Sadly i also thought of accusing you of suffering from "foot in mouth" now :suicide:

 

[Zelig]

I trust an orthodontists opinion of which one I should wear more than my random selection, especially since mine were custom fitted specifically for my feet. My guy seemed to take special care to make sure that I was getting set up with the right type of support - the special care that the article talks about. Mind you, I have no idea if what he set me up with is actually working or not, as I have no idea if he did a good job making the selection for me. But I'd rather he do that than me picking one randomly, seems to make a lot more sense.

As for cost, my orthodics were 100% covered. But a discussion about the effectiveness can't hurt

Yes, you picked the one of the only notes of support in the article:

His overall conclusion: Shoe inserts or orthotics may be helpful as a short-term solution, preventing injuries in some athletes. But it is not clear how to make inserts that work. The idea that they are supposed to correct mechanical-alignment problems does not hold up.

“We have found many of the same results,” said Dr. Hamill, professor of kinesiology and the director of the university’s biomechanics laboratory. “I guess the main thing to note is that, as biomechanists, we really do not know how orthotics work.”

In his studies, he found there was no way to predict the effect of a given orthotic. Consider, for example, an insert that pushes the foot away from a pronated position, or rotated excessively outward. You might think it would have the same effect on everyone who pronates, but it does not.

One person might respond by increasing the stress on the outside of the foot, another on the inside. Another might not respond at all, unconsciously correcting the orthotic’s correction.

In one study discussed in his new book, “Biomechanics of Sport Shoes,” Dr. Nigg sent a talented distance runner to five certified orthotics makers. Each made a different type of insert to “correct” his pronation.

The athlete wore each set of orthotics for three days and then ran 10 kilometers, about 6 miles. He liked two of the orthotics and ran faster with them than with the other three. But the construction of the two he liked was completely different.

As for “corrective” orthotics, he says, they do not correct so much as lead to a reduction in muscle strength.

In one recent review of published papers, Dr. Nigg and his colleagues analyzed studies on orthotics and injury prevention. Nearly all published studies, they report, lacked scientific rigor. For example, they did not include groups that, for comparison, did not receive orthotics. Or they discounted people who dropped out of the study, even though dropouts are often those who are not benefiting from a treatment.

Every medical specialist Jason has seen tried to correct his flat feet, but with little agreement on how to do it.

Every new podiatrist or orthopedist, he told me, would invariably look at his orthotics and say: “Oh, these aren’t any good. The lab I use makes much better ones. Your injury is probably linked to these poor-fitting orthotics.”

That is a typical story, Dr. Nigg says. In fact, he adds, there is no need to “correct” a flat foot. All Jason needs to do is strengthen his foot and ankle muscles and then try running without orthotics.

There's really nothing to indicate that the "special care" is any better than random selection.

 

[warpus]

So there seems to be different philosophies coming from different people in terms of the effectiveness of orthodics. If you're right though, you just destroyed the placebo effect and I'm going to suffer as a result - so now I have no choice but to add you to my list of adversaries.

An orthodontist is a dentist.

you got me there

 

[Zelig]

Nah, the placebo effect is very powerful, it's not necessarily eliminated by the knowledge that you're taking a placebo.

 

[illram]

Beyond my feet hurting from crappy old running shoes (as opposed to feeling fine when I bought nice new ones) the main thing for me is lightweight shoes. When I went on a run for the first time with my new running shoes that were way lighter than my old ones it was like night and day. I probably run about 10 miles a week or something, nothing major.

 

[NetGear]

I used to get epic shin splints if I was being stingy with buying new running shoes. Id suggest roughly keeping memory of how many x miles you've ran with it and replace them consistently.

 

[Zelig]

Beyond my feet hurting from crappy old running shoes (as opposed to feeling fine when I bought nice new ones) the main thing for me is lightweight shoes. When I went on a run for the first time with my new running shoes that were way lighter than my old ones it was like night and day. I probably run about 10 miles a week or something, nothing major.

http://www.merrell.com/US/en-US/Product.mvc.aspx/30843M/74390/Mens/Barefoot-Run-Vapor-Glove

140 grams!

I used to get epic shin splints if I was being stingy with buying new running shoes. Id suggest roughly keeping memory of how many x miles you've ran with it and replace them consistently.

Not a problem with minimalist shoes, there's nothing to break down.