Rushing a Library in Pherris

[eyrei]

I propose we rush-build a library in Pherris on the coming turn. I am not sure, as I have not had time to download the new save, but I am guessing that it is now stuck at pop 2, and that the extra shield gained from the additional unimproved hill is lost to waste. If we rush a library, in 4 turns, it will have access to two flood plains, and will recover that pop point very quickly. It will also begin to generate a decent amount of commerce, which we definately need. The rate at which it produces immortals will not be affected. We will essentially delay the production of that first immortal for 2 turns, while increasing our commerce per turn within the near future, by 2-4, depending on whether we improve those floodplains and corruption.

I apologize for the short notice, but I just noticed this, and it needs to be done immediately to be efficient.

 

[napoleon526]

Yes, do it!

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

I voted no.

Not because I disagree with your logic, as usual I think you are right on the mark Eyrei.

What I am wondering is if this topic of Pop Rushing in general should be put to a vote. Some of our citizens have spoke out against it in the early days of our civ, and I feel we may need to establish an overall mandate on the issue.

Bill
Trade Leader

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
Some of our citizens have spoke out against it in the early days of our civ, and I feel we may need to establish an overall mandate on the issue.

This is precisely why I put this to a vote. My feelings on pop-rushing are as follows:

1. Should be utilized to produce cultural improvements very early, so to gain the age bonus quickly and expand the borders to prevent annoying settlement building by other civs. The other requirement for this sort of pop-rushing is that the unhappiness penalty will not freeze the growth of the city.

2. Should be used in military emergencies to rush units. The defination of an emergency is normally that the city will likely fall without another defender. An unhappy city is better than no city at all.

3. Should not be used when it requires more than one pop point, unless it is an absolute emergency.

4. Should be used to rush cultural improvements to secure resources and luxuries on the edge of another civs border.

5. Should not be used to rush units in communism, as the draft is a much better option for a military emergency.

 

[Cyc]

so what you're saying eyrei is you'll pop rush just about anytime. personally i never pop rush. pay over-time, yeah.

if we were to pop rush pherris a library now. it would be 20 turns before we were to get back to our current production level. because of corruption, we would probably have to grow to a size 5 before we saw any improvement. from the time of our pop rush to the first twenty turns, our IMMORTAL production would suck. a reduction of 66%? the only way to improve the situation would be to immediately irrigate the flood plain. then we would only have to wait 14 turns with sucky IMMORTAL production to get back to our current level, and then our growth to size 5 would be slightly quicker.

now about this 15 minute poll stuff. it's worse than pop rushing. we can't make a major production decision as a nation in this short time. IMMORTAL production is important RIGHT NOW. we shouldn't hinder our military growth at this point. nor should we ask the citizens to make this decision.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Cyc
so what you're saying eyrei is you'll pop rush just about anytime. personally i never pop rush. pay over-time, yeah.

if we were to pop rush pherris a library now. it would be 20 turns before we were to get back to our current production level. because of corruption, we would probably have to grow to a size 5 before we saw any improvement. from the time of our pop rush to the first twenty turns, our IMMORTAL production would suck. a reduction of 66%? the only way to improve the situation would be to immediately irrigate the flood plain. then we would only have to wait 14 turns with sucky IMMORTAL production to get back to our current level, and then our growth to size 5 would be slightly quicker.

now about this 15 minute poll stuff. it's worse than pop rushing. we can't make a major production decision as a nation in this short time. IMMORTAL production is important RIGHT NOW. we shouldn't hinder our military growth at this point. nor should we ask the citizens to make this decision.

I will check these numbers when I get home in 20 minutes or so, but with all do respect Cyc, your analysis of the effects of rushing a library in Pherris is flawed. First, it will take aout 13 turns to get back to pop 2, not 20, as in 4 turns it will have access to a flood plain. Also, I believe the 5th shield that is produced by the second population point is lost to corruption anyway. Pherris will produce just as quickly at one population than at two, with its current terrain improvements. It will slow immortal productio down by 2 turns, and in the long run, it will allow it to produce much faster. Were it to keep producing immortals, in 23 turns it would be pop 2 again, producing almost no commerce and not growing. We would have 2 immortals, and another in 7 turns. Now, if we rush a library, in 23 turns it will be pop 3, producing another 2 commerce(at least, more if we build a couple roads), we will have 2 immortals, and another in 9 turns. It will also grow to pop 4 in another twenty turns, even if we do not irrigate the flood plains. If we do, it will only be another 20 turns before it is pop 5. Read this carefully, please, I don't think I can explain in any more specific a manner. The benefits most definately outweigh the damage you think it will do.

 

[marshalljames]

This makes no sense,we're against razing enemy cities but wiping out our own population is okay?????
Although your numbers sound good you seem to forget about the inherited resentment and hence increased corruption.you don't even mention the fact that some of these citizens that leave will bad mouth us and people will be less willing to come and settle.
I don't agree with pop rushing at all.To me it's an admission of failure.Wait till we can buy production.

 

[Justus II]

I voted no, even though I would generally be in favor of limited pop-rushing of libraries, for the same reasons you mentioned (culture bonus, borders). But during this present war, I think anything that could slow our military production would be counterproductive. I guess I would qualify my vote, since I haven't seen the latest save game either, and might vote yes after further study if in fact production would not be effected. I move to allow more time for further analysis.

 

[donsig]

I haven't looked at Cyc's or Eyrei's numbers too closely but here we have a situation where the cultural leader and domestic leader have differing opinions. Who has the constitutional right to make the descision?

From the constitution, section E:

Point 5: Cultural Leader: Make's decission's regarding Expansion ,construction of cultural city improvement's. Governors are responsible for individual cities in a Province. The Cultural leader can override gouvernor's decission's for the construction of cultural improvement's.

Point 8: Domestic leader: make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation.

Looks like it was Cyc's call whether to build the library or not. his descision could have been over-ridden by the President with "enough support from the cabinet," or by the military department:

Point 3: Military Leader: Make's on military actions, defense, and (If war has been declared) war time actions. Reports military decisions to the President. Can override Governors on production issues during time of invasion. Takes over from the President in times of mobilization. (martial law)

I think our domestic leader over-stepped his constitutional authority on this one.

 

[donsig]

Further reading of the constitution reveals that governors are also involved in deciding city production. From the constitution, section E:

Point 9: Governors: Elected by the people to control production in cities of their province.

Also from the constitution:

Section H:Gouvernor's:

point 1: A gouvernor control's and decide's over 5 city's.
point 2: The Domestic leader is also the gouvernor over the first 5 city's. (the core city's)

Since Pherris is not one of the first five cities SKILORD is governor of Pherris.

I think our constitution could more clearly define who actually decides what is to be built in each city. The Presidential over-ride is also quite vague (just what is "enough cabinet support"?).

I think it is important to address these issues because much time is used in the turn chat to decide what to build next in a city or what to switch production to. With two days between turn chats there is ample time to hash this out so that everyone knows what the build descisions are.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig
From the constitution, section E:

Point 5: Cultural Leader: Make's decission's regarding Expansion ,construction of cultural city improvement's. Governors are responsible for individual cities in a Province. The Cultural leader can override gouvernor's decission's for the construction of cultural improvement's.

Point 8: Domestic leader: make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation.

Looks like it was Cyc's call whether to build the library or not. his descision could have been over-ridden by the President with "enough support from the cabinet," or by the military department:

Point 3: Military Leader: Make's on military actions, defense, and (If war has been declared) war time actions. Reports military decisions to the President. Can override Governors on production issues during time of invasion. Takes over from the President in times of mobilization. (martial law)

I think our domestic leader over-stepped his constitutional authority on this one.

I am pretty sure that the spirit of the section regarding the cultural minister's power to make decisions regarding cultural improvements is lost in the current wording. That clause was meant to mean that the cultural leader could override current produciton choices if he wanted a cultural building because some of our territory had been culturally taken over. As far as the military leaders power during invasions, I do not think this yet qualifies as an invasion, as the only units in our territory when this decision was made were a few american warriors, one of which was a conscript, and Pherris was in no danger.

As domestic leader, it IS my job to make sure cities do not stagnate and fall short of their potential. Pherris was stuck at size two until it built a cultural improvement. Immortal production was slowed by 2 turns; a small price to pay for an improving economy. Also, a poll was posted, and though it was posted on short notice, the results are pretty clear. I believe my reasoning was sound, and this decision was best for the empire.

Finally, unless we do something very strange while defining our provinces, Pherris will be part of the first province, regardless of when it was built.

 

[donsig]

As far as the constitution goes we can only go by what is written not by what we think was intended. If you think the current wording of the constitution does not reflect the intnet then it should be changed. In the mean time we must go with what is written. And what is written is that the domestic leader "make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation." It is also written that:

"Section H:Gouvernor's:

point 1: A gouvernor control's and decide's over 5 city's.
point 2: The Domestic leader is also the gouvernor over the first 5 city's. (the core city's)"

Pherris was not one of the first five cities. Eyrei, until changes are make, you are not the governor of Pherris! The wording is clear.

I do not think it was so important to expand Pherris's borders. The main reason for building Pherris was to have access to iron and a place to retrain our proto-immortals. We are in no way dependant on the production on Pherris for immortals. Was there a mandate from the military department saying they were desperate to up the immortal production in Pherris?

As for the poll, it currently shows a 14 -7 vote in favor of whipping the library. It was 11-7 after the turn chat and even closer before the turn chat. Votes were acutally made during turn chat. Even at 14-7 there are less than one third of the population voting. Hardly a mandate. Talk about your silent majorities!

Finally, I am sure you are doing what you think is best eyrei. That is no reason to usurp the authority of other governemnt officials.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig
As far as the constitution goes we can only go by what is written not by what we think was intended. If you think the current wording of the constitution does not reflect the intnet then it should be changed. In the mean time we must go with what is written. And what is written is that the domestic leader "make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation." It is also written that:

"Section H:Gouvernor's:

point 1: A gouvernor control's and decide's over 5 city's.
point 2: The Domestic leader is also the gouvernor over the first 5 city's. (the core city's)"

Pherris was not one of the first five cities. Eyrei, until changes are make, you are not the governor of Pherris! The wording is clear.

I do not think it was so important to expand Pherris's borders. The main reason for building Pherris was to have access to iron and a place to retrain our proto-immortals. We are in no way dependant on the production on Pherris for immortals. Was there a mandate from the military department saying they were desperate to up the immortal production in Pherris?

As for the poll, it currently shows a 14 -7 vote in favor of whipping the library. It was 11-7 after the turn chat and even closer before the turn chat. Votes were acutally made during turn chat. Even at 14-7 there are less than one third of the population voting. Hardly a mandate. Talk about your silent majorities!

Finally, I am sure you are doing what you think is best eyrei. That is no reason to usurp the authority of other governemnt officials.

I am quite sure of the meaning of that section of the constitution regarding the cultural department, as I helped The Duck of Flanders write it. Unfortunately, he seems to have oversimplified that part of it. Also, as far as provinces go, it seems silly that the first province would be Fox's Nest, Eyr, Shailenogha, Khatovar and PDX, as Pherris is right in the middle of them. Hopefully, we can define these soon to avoid further confusion. Currently, there is not a clause in the constitution regarding pop-rushing, and this needs to be rectified ASAP. I did not rush that library to improve immortal production, but to improve our economy.

For more information regarding the powers of the cultural department as far as overriding governors and/or the domestic leader's decisions, see this thread :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19139

 

[donsig]

Also, as far as provinces go, it seems silly that the first province would be Fox's Nest, Eyr, Shailenogha, Khatovar and PDX, as Pherris is right in the middle of them.

I agree. I started a thread way back when with a screen shot illustrating the silliness of it all. Nothing has been formally changed. Lots of talk no action.

I did not rush that library to improve immortal production, but to improve our economy.

We were on the brink of a golden age with the tax rate at 100%. Are you seriously suggesting the economy needed help?

Hopefully, we can define these soon to avoid further confusion. Currently, there is not a clause in the constitution regarding pop-rushing, and this needs to be rectified ASAP.

Unfortunately, as a nation, we've been good at talking about changes but poor in implementing any.

I am quite sure of the meaning of that section of the constitution regarding the cultural department, as I helped The Duck of Flanders write it. Unfortunately, he seems to have oversimplified that part of it.

The constitution is a set of rules for our government to operate under. We must go by the rules as written. If changes are needed let's make them. Until the rules are changed we must follow them.

Our trade leader has provided the proper example in this regard. He was the senior cabinet member present at a turn chat but since he wasn't in the official COC he did not run the game. Obviously he should be in the COC but he followed the rules as written and made the problem known so it could be rectified.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig




We were on the brink of a golden age with the tax rate at 100%. Are you seriously suggesting the economy needed help?

The economy always needs help.

The main problem I saw, was that Pherris was absolutely stagnant, and that by sacrificing two turns of production, we could rectify that. I think that is a fair trade off.

Unfortunately, as a nation, we've been good at talking about changes but poor in implementing any.

Probably because everyone is scared that they will be crucified for taken action. (joking)

 

[donsig]

The economy always needs help.

An admirable position for the domestic advisor to take. However, the country would have been fine withour rushing or even building that library at that time.

The main problem I saw, was that Pherris was absolutely stagnant, and that by sacrificing two turns of production, we could rectify that. I think that is a fair trade off.

Not all of us agree with you. You ignored those of us who disagreed and you ignored the constitution to push your agenda.

Probably because everyone is scared that they will be crucified for taken action. (joking)

I think the reason is that it takes a cabinet vote to change the constitution and the cabinet cannot get together all at the same time to make a quick vote on anything.

As for 'crucifying' anyone I realy hope that fear is not keeping people from participating in the events before us. And I certainly hope that no one (especially eyrei) thinks they are being 'crucified'. While I have taken issue with this particular action on his part I do not mean to imply that eyrei has been doing a poor job.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig


An admirable position for the domestic advisor to take. However, the country would have been fine withour rushing or even building that library at that time.



Not all of us agree with you. You ignored those of us who disagreed and you ignored the constitution to push your agenda.



I think the reason is that it takes a cabinet vote to change the constitution and the cabinet cannot get together all at the same time to make a quick vote on anything.

As for 'crucifying' anyone I realy hope that fear is not keeping people from participating in the events before us. And I certainly hope that no one (especially eyrei) thinks they are being 'crucified'. While I have taken issue with this particular action on his part I do not mean to imply that eyrei has been doing a poor job.

I didn't ignore anybody as far as rushing that library was concerned. Just because I did not bend to the will of those that disagreed with me, does not mean I ignored them. In the end, the majority seemed to agree with my reasoning, though I realize the poll was rather short notice.

I really was joking with the being 'crucified' thing. Although, I do seem to take a lot of flack anytime I do something.

I did not ignore the constitution, I simply interpreted it differently, because of other information I had.

Rushing the library did not hurt the nation in any way.

 

[donsig]

In the end, the majority seemed to agree with my reasoning, though I realize the poll was rather short notice.

What majority? The 14-7 majority in the poll? According to the census we have 69 citizens. A majority would be 35. Or do you mean that a majority of the cabinet now supports the whipping of the library? There certainly was not a majority even present at the turn chat.

 

[eyrei]

There are only about thirty citizens who regularly vote.

 

[donsig]

If less than a majority are even voting then how do you know that a majority now support you?