S3rgeus's Wheel of Time Mod

[counterpoint]

Yep, another way to do a unique on Female2 would be to have the unit start replacing the Wilder after that tech. A bit unusual but could be possible. The abilities one is probably much easier to do as well though!

yeah, which one feels more intuitive to you?

(why am I asking - we decided to move on from this!)

I don't think it's really a problem with a fictional nation that doesn't have as much in terms of depth to it. The problem with the India and Mexico examples is that they ignore much larger parts of those countries' Culture. Whereas for Altara, we don't have that depth of Culture to draw from, so these more superficial cultural elements make more sense for these kinds of civilization representations.

right. understood.

Yeah, I don't think I'll go for the Deluxe in the end! One more preorder incoming!

they're rich!

 

[S3rgeus]

I said I'd be back tonight, but now I'm quite ill. Hoping to be better enough to be able to think straight and brainstorm by tomorrow evening!

 

[counterpoint]

I said I'd be back tonight, but now I'm quite ill. Hoping to be better enough to be able to think straight and brainstorm by tomorrow evening!

oh no!

lots of fluids! Trust me, I'm a doctor.

 

[S3rgeus]

I have returned with relatively better health!

this is for Spymaster's network. I was thinking that this might be a way to include this flavor without having to use up two uniques on the spymaster thing. So, I've added something to it below to spice it up a bit and make it stand alone.

Do any of the other options necessitate using two unique slots on the Spymaster flavor? They all seem like they could stand alone in sets that don't have any other Spymaster flavor in them.

That aside, I like the addition to this UA.

Overwhelming Dedication. Yeah, I definitely liked the idea of this one. Sounds like it's not too practical though. Red.

Removed

I think this is all making me think hat this ability might not be worth it. I do think the Alignment-citizen system will be most fun if it's pretty much left to "whoah, my city is out of whack, use a Questioner!" or "let's mess with my enemies - use a Questioner!". The idea proposed by me here is a bit too simplistic and easy to achieve, while your suggestion seems a bit too extreme in the amount of mastery of the system it requires when compared to playing other civs. Also, last last point you make is rather damning. Magenta.

I think we might be able to work out a usability compromise that works with citizens on this one - not too complicated and not too easy. However, the "extent" thing seems hard to get away from - commitment to an Alignment makes deviating from that Alignment (in a 'positive' way) harder. So I'll go with red on this.

The Troubles. OK. Red.

Removed

Good point about the LW ability. I could see replacing "original capitals" with "foreign city" and just lower the payouts. I'll magenta this in case you think the LW problem is worth redding over.

It looks like you've marked this red, even though you said you'd mark it magenta. (New forum uses hex codes for its color tags, which is delightful, now I keep having to look up what all the colors are. )

I think the LW problem is reddable, it would be super annoying to play against.

Channeling Ban. Yeah, I think this one has potential, though it also feels a little "obvious," though that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think the Questioner thing probably works best when paired with another Unique that might provide benefit from that (a UU Questioner or something).

As far as the overall strength, the +X% str could also be relatively high if need be, or we could add another benefit, perhaps something faithey.

This is also rather useful in the LB

It does have potential and is good during the LB. I think it needs more upsides, given that it restricts Amadicia from building two very powerful units that all other civs will have some variant of. It helps Amadicia fight off those units, which is good, but that brings us back to neutral - there should be more positive that makes it a bonus.

Some other things that might be cool:

1. reduce the range of channeling units in Amadicia's territory
2. some kind of bonus for unused Spark
3. Growth rate boost in cities with no channelers nearby

#1 is a bit non-obvious flavor wise how it could happen, but is explainable.

#2 is affected by Amadicia's only consumers of Spark being Male Channelers and later Asha'men - would we be fine with such a bonus? What could it be?

#3 could be pretty cool, and affects how Amadicia would interact with some other unit types. They would need to be more aggressive with MCs and FDs (which makes sense with their flavor). Also less likely to use Aes Sedai at home (also works with their flavor).

I find I'm liking #3. There are of course many others!

right, I think the key thing is it discourages Ama from using channelers only during the lifetime of the Bannerman - i.e., the end game, i.e. the era in which the Children control Amadicia.

Yeah, that's a nice flavor overlap!

I mean it gets a ranged attack against the unit. I intended it to happen after the unit attacks, whether it's killed or not (it'd die immediately after), so as not to cheaply lower the attacking unit's strength/hp before it gets to attack. But I suppose it could happen before the other unit gets a strike, which is rather evil.

I think before is better - both better in the sense that it's stronger and that it's less confusing. The attacking unit, if it kills the defender, also wants to move onto the defender's hex. But then there'd need to be a ranged attack after. And then something would need to kill the unit before the attacker moved over (we wouldn't want them to just attack and then keel over on their own). Attacking before the melee combat solves all of these.

well, it could also provide fewer pressure points, or not stack multiple times per turn.

I think it's fine, it's good that it will hit the cities a bit more!

Well, should we axe because of the flavor, or just rebrand?

I could see us rebranding, but the UB doesn't really excite me. That's not necessarily a problem though, right? As for what we could rebrand to, this could be another Dome of Truth?

yeah, all good points. yuck. Once Alignment buildings exist, it's likely too late to worry about your Questioner production rate...

red

Removed

I think the answer to this would be to put it on an earlier building... but how do we associate it with a given Alignment side if we do that?

We could make the Alignment dump based on the citizen composition of the city, which could help both sides? (More details on how that helps both below, in the Spymaster's Quarters UB quote block.)

OK, these are two separate issues. Both of which need to get into the Alignment summary when we settle them.

So, I agree that Alignment buildings should be destroyed when captured. Cool?

I like this idea, but just to do a quick exploration of other options:

1. Leave the buildings where they are when captured
2. Give them a % chance of being destroyed

The main problem with either of these is that the presence of an Alignment building represents a clear intent from the original owner of the city to move towards that Alignment. That's an enormous telegraph.

We've avoided telegraphs thus far. However! Just as devil's advocate - this building is unlocking quite late and relatively nearer to the start of the LB than a lot of the other Alignment mechanics. Do we want to make this a feature of this part of the game? War exposes some players' Alignments? (Or has the chance to, with % based destruction). And then that can become part of diplomacy - you can accuse someone of aligning a certain way (with or without evidence) and it becomes a game of who to believe? That actually sounds pretty cool, and meshes well with the canon (people accusing others of being/being run by Darkfriends). Of course, such an ability to accuse doesn't necessitate the Alignment buildings surviving city capture.

crazy how long it took us to realize we had an issue with citizen composition upon capture! Looks like there's four ways to go about it:

1) Citizens remain as they were under previous rule (realistic, but telegraphs alignment)
2) Citizens convert immediately to norm of capturing civ, or within a tier or so of that norm (unrealistic, but mechanically simplest and safest, if the least interesting)
3) Citizens turn "neutral" - the neutral composition of normal and DF citizens is struck, which may or may not be close to either civ's norm (not very realistic, though sort of explainable, mechanically safe)
4) Citizens move halfway between previous and new alignment (half-way between realism and telegraphing)

Not sure which I like best. Probably something like 3 or 4. How to decide this?

Agreed, I don't know how we didn't consider this before!

I'm not too worried about Alignment telegraphing in #1. Cities can deviate from the player's primary progression for their current Alignment, will largely build up citizens over time when the original owner was in a different Alignment tier, and the capturing player would need to have a fairly significant grasp of the Alignment citizen system to even begin to approximate how the previous two points could have resulted in a specific citizen distribution. (Not to mention if we randomize which citizens die when the city is captured, figuring anything out about your opponent's Alignment becomes an exercise of madness.)

I think the biggest point about #1 is that capturing a city will likely push the capturing player's Alignment in the direction of the city's original owner. (A Light player who captures a Shadow city is more likely to end up with more Darkfriend citizens in that city, and so be made more Shadow-y and vice versa.) However, this may not be a problem. In fact, it does make quite a bit of sense flavor wise. (If you capture a city full of Darkfriends, that tends to affect your civ.) And it's something that, given the points I mentioned above, would usually only be noticeable at a statistical level, rather than by a single player during an individual game. (The only exceptions being extreme outliers that *all* of one type - but even then, the citizen death creates that possibility for relatively normal cities.)

This makes me think #1 is the way to go. We can also randomize which citizens die during the capture of the city (rather than chopping off from just the top or bottom), as mentioned above. This approach makes the most flavorful sense, makes a decent amount of mechanical sense, and I don't think has much of a telegraph risk.

Well, the building has no alignment yield, so unless we made two versions, that wouldn't really work. Modifying the citizens... wouldn't that just end up a wash in the end? I mean, everybody producing more alignment? Well, I suppose if you had enough light citizens it'd generate more light than shadow. But isn't there some element to alignment that relates to the gross alignment score, as opposed to the net? Like, is there anything that happens if you hit 1000 Shadow (even if you have a million Light) - I can't remember. But this kind of thing would contribute to that.

It's only a wash if the city's Alignment output is already a wash. That's the beauty of a bonus to Alignment production from citizens of both sides - it supports either Alignment and lets the player commit more heavily to the one they're going for. +X per citizen favors Light (since you usually have more Light citizens, since they have a lower Alignment yield), but considering again - a multiplier is equally beneficial to either side. If, at base, you've got 5 Light citizens (producing +5 Light) and 1 Darkfriend (producing +3 Shadow), this gives a total net Alignment output of +2 Light from this city. Double all of their yields and now you have 5 Light citizens (producing +10 Light) and 1 Darkfriend (producing +6 Shadow), for a total net Alignment output of +4 Light from this city. Makes it more effective whichever side you're going for.

Yeah, could be a UA. I included it here to provide for the possibility of still having a UA.

Yep, it's good flexibility.

Right, that would work if this were a UA.

I think we could provide it "extra" even if it's not a UA (that's how UIs work).

I don't see the Tall thing as all that Tall - bonus production in the capital is good for everyone.

True, flat production rushes are much less Tall-favoring.

Regarding wonder sniping... well, you can't tell what people are producing, right? Or can you, with diplomats or something? I suppose that would be rather annoying - should the victim receive some gold refunded or something? Probably not a good idea, but the whole your-out-of-luck thing is a pretty big deal. Maybe there's a cap to what it can sabotage... like, it can't break a 99% complete wonder, but can set it back to 50% or something. Thoughts?

Assuming we keep the system from BNW, you can tell in precisely this situation: Spies warn you when another civ is building a wonder in the city they're stationed in.

I think creating a cap by making it always remove a fixed amount of Production from the currently active item is a good call. At certain amounts, it will always reset a normal building to 0 (since their progress presumably can't be made negative) but will only delay a wonder, rather than restart it.

Still, while this would feel fun to use, I feel like it would be a pain in the face to play against. It's not fun to have your planned wonder progress (or progress to anything), which is an "internal" action, reset by activities outside your control. It's also completely transparent. Since Amadicia is the only civ that can do this, when it happens the defending player knows exactly who to blame, and that's not very cool either.

I've made a UA version of this.

Good to keep the UA option open, same comments as above.

cool. similar in overall effect to the legendary works one I made. Maybe occupation time should be shorter to offset the happiness?

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Changed the wording of this slightly, because the city not working for a while after being annexed is Resistance - which is what I believe you're referring to?

First off, yes, the Herald is a Missionary *and* an Inquisitor, and I think I'm fine with that decision. That makes this one moot.

Argh!

ok, this is kind of nuts. I'm not sure how this *helps* you if you're a light civ, though. More like something you have to *deal with*.

The idea is that X is calibrated so that you can quite easily remove a lot of Darkfriend citizens - faster than you would with Questioners or the like (and without needing to push your overall Alignment more Light to be able to do so). I do see that Light has to spend effort and Shadow doesn't though. Maybe both sides should be a process that switches citizens over?

I've made some changes to address that below. Both sides being a process makes it more symmetrical. (Y is greater than X since a single Darkfriend citizen produces more Alignment than a Light citizen.) Not sure about the name of the Shadow process.

Interesting. Again, not sure what I think about this. It definitely might make good flavor-sense for this civ.But I don't exactly see the benefit for the Light side, which makes it problematic IMO.

Same as above. The issue of early game production scarcity that I mentioned last time goes away with the dual-process approach, since there's no default Shadow bias to their citizen configuration anymore.


Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul)

UAs:

• Dedicated Mission, +X (high, based on Population) Faith the first time Amadicia takes control of a foreign city, double when that city follows the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Dogmatic Domination, Amadician units receive +X combat strength against cities following Paths other than the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Spymaster's Network, Amadician units receive +X combat strength when attacking any city in which an Amadician Eyes and Ears is stationed. If a foreign Eyes and Ears is killed by Amadicia, all Amadician Eyes and Ears receive +Y% success rate for their next action.
• Prosperity in Belief, Amadician cities of Stable alignment produce +X% culture per turn.
• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 and Female2 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital.
• Spymaster's Sabotage, In addition to normal Eyes and Ears, in the Era of Consolidation Amadicia receives a Spymaster. The Spymaster functions as a normal Eyes and Ears, but has X% chance to sabotage the production in a city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production resets all accumulated production in that city to zero and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, All channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Hand of the Light, replaces the Questioner, +X Culture when affecting alignment in a foreign city. After <tech> +Y Prestige when affecting alignment in a foreign city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Guardians of the Gate (spawn), replaces Era 5-8 Melee, Ranged, Mounted, or Polearm unit, +X% combat strength. Z% to spawn a Herald when killing Shadowspawn in Amadician territory. Z% chance to spawn a Questioner when killing an enemy channeling unit.
• Guardians of the Gate (counter), replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place, even if the Guardian is killed by that unit's attack.
• Lord Captain's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, Receives +X% combat strength against cities following the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.

UBs:

• Fortress of the Light, replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Dome of Truth (Kills), replaces Alignment, +X Alignment and +Y Faith whenever this city destroys an enemy unit.
• Spymaster's Quarters, replaces Spy2, Stationing Eyes and Ears in this city reduces Unhappiness in this city by X% and causes citizens to produce W times their usual of their respective Alignment yield. Enemy Eyes and Ears caught in this city generate +Y Faith and +Z Prestige for Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Questioner's Quarters, replaces Alignment, Darkfriend citizens in this city produce double Alignment. this city can "Produce Righteousness", which switches 1 citizen from Darkfriend to Light citizen every X production or "Instigate Corruption", which switches 1 citizen from Light citizen to Darkfriend every Y production.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production resets all accumulated production in that city to zero and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

Disputed Border Encampment is another way to capture the Troubles flavor. This lets Amadicia steal Luxuries that are right next to their borders from other civs. I mulled over giving both civs access, but I figured that was too far to stretch the flavor. It's something that the defending player is able to actively deal with, since they can declare war and such to destroy it. The restriction on adjacency with Amadician territory also means it's not very spammable (any non-border Luxury is automatically safe, from the defender's point of view). There could be variants of this that steal bonuses or strategics (or multiple resource types).

I'll be mulling and brainstorming this evening to have more suggestions tomorrow!

yeah, which one feels more intuitive to you?

(why am I asking - we decided to move on from this!)

About Female1/2 and whether we should merge them. I think I'd want to look back through the civs and see how often we specifically want to replace Female2! Otherwise having just Female1 is probably more consistent with how Aes Sedai and Male Channelers work anyway, so I'm leaning towards eliminating Female2.

 

[counterpoint]

I have returned with relatively better health!

your welcome!

Do any of the other options necessitate using two unique slots on the Spymaster flavor? They all seem like they could stand alone in sets that don't have any other Spymaster flavor in them.

no, but your previous comment suggested this would combo well with one of the UEaE - I'm suggesting that that might not be the best idea.

I think we might be able to work out a usability compromise that works with citizens on this one - not too complicated and not too easy. However, the "extent" thing seems hard to get away from - commitment to an Alignment makes deviating from that Alignment (in a 'positive' way) harder. So I'll go with red on this.

(come back some day, nuke emoji!)

It looks like you've marked this red, even though you said you'd mark it magenta. (New forum uses hex codes for its color tags, which is delightful, now I keep having to look up what all the colors are. )

I think the LW problem is reddable, it would be super annoying to play against.

re: color. Sorry, my bad! In related news, do you do your posts in bbcode or the rich text editor?

Fine with this going byebye

It does have potential and is good during the LB. I think it needs more upsides, given that it restricts Amadicia from building two very powerful units that all other civs will have some variant of. It helps Amadicia fight off those units, which is good, but that brings us back to neutral - there should be more positive that makes it a bonus.

Some other things that might be cool:

1. reduce the range of channeling units in Amadicia's territory
2. some kind of bonus for unused Spark
3. Growth rate boost in cities with no channelers nearby

#1 is a bit non-obvious flavor wise how it could happen, but is explainable.

#2 is affected by Amadicia's only consumers of Spark being Male Channelers and later Asha'men - would we be fine with such a bonus? What could it be?

#3 could be pretty cool, and affects how Amadicia would interact with some other unit types. They would need to be more aggressive with MCs and FDs (which makes sense with their flavor). Also less likely to use Aes Sedai at home (also works with their flavor).

I find I'm liking #3. There are of course many others!

I think #1 is kind of just stacking on the same kind of bonus we already have. not as fun.

#2.... there's also another way to frame it, not as a bonus but as something else Amadicia can do with their excess Spark. Like use it to build other units or something - what if there was some weird way that "overloads" on other strategic drained Spark or something, but were allowed (probably would be quite costly)? That serves to discourage all types of channeler use except for AS, and empower them to do battle as well (or build <factory equivalents> and such.

#3 could be fine, but I feel like the "nearby" thing would have to be further than just a few hexes. Also, not super high either.

thoughts?

I think before is better - both better in the sense that it's stronger and that it's less confusing. The attacking unit, if it kills the defender, also wants to move onto the defender's hex. But then there'd need to be a ranged attack after. And then something would need to kill the unit before the attacker moved over (we wouldn't want them to just attack and then keel over on their own). Attacking before the melee combat solves all of these.

ok fine with this!

I could see us rebranding, but the UB doesn't really excite me. That's not necessarily a problem though, right? As for what we could rebrand to, this could be another Dome of Truth?

ok, changed. Not sure this'll survive long though...

We could make the Alignment dump based on the citizen composition of the city, which could help both sides? (More details on how that helps both below, in the Spymaster's Quarters UB quote block.)

yeah, that could work.... any suggestions? Do we like this enough to keep around? I'm not sure either way.

I like this idea, but just to do a quick exploration of other options:

1. Leave the buildings where they are when captured
2. Give them a % chance of being destroyed

The main problem with either of these is that the presence of an Alignment building represents a clear intent from the original owner of the city to move towards that Alignment. That's an enormous telegraph.

We've avoided telegraphs thus far. However! Just as devil's advocate - this building is unlocking quite late and relatively nearer to the start of the LB than a lot of the other Alignment mechanics. Do we want to make this a feature of this part of the game? War exposes some players' Alignments? (Or has the chance to, with % based destruction). And then that can become part of diplomacy - you can accuse someone of aligning a certain way (with or without evidence) and it becomes a game of who to believe? That actually sounds pretty cool, and meshes well with the canon (people accusing others of being/being run by Darkfriends). Of course, such an ability to accuse doesn't necessitate the Alignment buildings surviving city capture.

Whether we do accusations or not, I'm not sure as to the % chance thing. It might be enough to simply use the Darkfriend composition of the city as a way to sort of divine the alignment of the previous owner. Also, That's a knock-on effect of messing with an opponent's alignment in cities - you might sway somebody to think they're a DF (or not one)!

The other weird thing is wondering what "the point" of this surviving building is *besides* the telegraph. Its a "Free" alignment building if you want it, or, often likely, a free "sold" building. Or, one that goes unnoticed if you forget to check.... I'm not sur eit's worth it. I suppose I'm leaning towards always destroying it. You?

But yeah, I'd say Accusations could be cool. What it's based on might always be conjecture - based on DF alignment, mysterious changes t oyour own alignment, behavior towards the Cleansing etc - but it might be cool. What's the effect, though? Anything "real"? What effect on Diplo for AI?

I'll update the alignment summary once we settle 1)alignment building fate, 2)accusations, and 3) DF composition (below)

Agreed, I don't know how we didn't consider this before!

I'm not too worried about Alignment telegraphing in #1. Cities can deviate from the player's primary progression for their current Alignment, will largely build up citizens over time when the original owner was in a different Alignment tier, and the capturing player would need to have a fairly significant grasp of the Alignment citizen system to even begin to approximate how the previous two points could have resulted in a specific citizen distribution. (Not to mention if we randomize which citizens die when the city is captured, figuring anything out about your opponent's Alignment becomes an exercise of madness.)

I think the biggest point about #1 is that capturing a city will likely push the capturing player's Alignment in the direction of the city's original owner. (A Light player who captures a Shadow city is more likely to end up with more Darkfriend citizens in that city, and so be made more Shadow-y and vice versa.) However, this may not be a problem. In fact, it does make quite a bit of sense flavor wise. (If you capture a city full of Darkfriends, that tends to affect your civ.) And it's something that, given the points I mentioned above, would usually only be noticeable at a statistical level, rather than by a single player during an individual game. (The only exceptions being extreme outliers that *all* of one type - but even then, the citizen death creates that possibility for relatively normal cities.)

This makes me think #1 is the way to go. We can also randomize which citizens die during the capture of the city (rather than chopping off from just the top or bottom), as mentioned above. This approach makes the most flavorful sense, makes a decent amount of mechanical sense, and I don't think has much of a telegraph risk.

at the risk of oversimplifying, I'm sold! I like:

- DF composition persists, but...
- killed citizenry is determined at random

I think this is a good system because it rewards A) messing with your enemy's alignment via Questioners, and B) messing with your own alignment via Questioners after conquest.

so, yeah.

It's only a wash if the city's Alignment output is already a wash. That's the beauty of a bonus to Alignment production from citizens of both sides - it supports either Alignment and lets the player commit more heavily to the one they're going for. +X per citizen favors Light (since you usually have more Light citizens, since they have a lower Alignment yield), but considering again - a multiplier is equally beneficial to either side. If, at base, you've got 5 Light citizens (producing +5 Light) and 1 Darkfriend (producing +3 Shadow), this gives a total net Alignment output of +2 Light from this city. Double all of their yields and now you have 5 Light citizens (producing +10 Light) and 1 Darkfriend (producing +6 Shadow), for a total net Alignment output of +4 Light from this city. Makes it more effective whichever side you're going for.

yeah, agreed on this too!

Assuming we keep the system from BNW, you can tell in precisely this situation: Spies warn you when another civ is building a wonder in the city they're stationed in.

I think creating a cap by making it always remove a fixed amount of Production from the currently active item is a good call. At certain amounts, it will always reset a normal building to 0 (since their progress presumably can't be made negative) but will only delay a wonder, rather than restart it.

Still, while this would feel fun to use, I feel like it would be a pain in the face to play against. It's not fun to have your planned wonder progress (or progress to anything), which is an "internal" action, reset by activities outside your control. It's also completely transparent. Since Amadicia is the only civ that can do this, when it happens the defending player knows exactly who to blame, and that's not very cool either.

Well, might it be the case that a spy's warning is too late to make a difference? If the Spymaster is already there, then he was going to attempt sabotage anyways. If not, would there be time to get him there in time?

But yeah, fixed production reduction is best.

In any case, your last points (frustration for enemy and transparency) are making me sour on this ability. Not redding it yet, but not loving it anymore.

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Changed the wording of this slightly, because the city not working for a while after being annexed is Resistance - which is what I believe you're referring to?

yeah... where did I get the term occupied from?

The idea is that X is calibrated so that you can quite easily remove a lot of Darkfriend citizens - faster than you would with Questioners or the like (and without needing to push your overall Alignment more Light to be able to do so). I do see that Light has to spend effort and Shadow doesn't though. Maybe both sides should be a process that switches citizens over?

I've made some changes to address that below. Both sides being a process makes it more symmetrical. (Y is greater than X since a single Darkfriend citizen produces more Alignment than a Light citizen.) Not sure about the name of the Shadow process.

I'm leaving this thing's colors alone as I'm not exactly sure how to simplify it.

As far as the name of the ability, I think we could theoretically come up with one word that words for both, like "Cleanse" or something - unless you wanted each city to have *both* options at all times.

I still wonder what the main "benefit"here is? Yeah, it allows you to spend production to change alignment, but you can *already* do that via Questioners, and presumably an Alignment building is working towards "correcting" your alignment anyways. I guess I wonder what the main benefit of the building is.

Disputed Border Encampment is another way to capture the Troubles flavor. This lets Amadicia steal Luxuries that are right next to their borders from other civs. I mulled over giving both civs access, but I figured that was too far to stretch the flavor. It's something that the defending player is able to actively deal with, since they can declare war and such to destroy it. The restriction on adjacency with Amadician territory also means it's not very spammable (any non-border Luxury is automatically safe, from the defender's point of view). There could be variants of this that steal bonuses or strategics (or multiple resource types).

I'll be mulling and brainstorming this evening to have more suggestions tomorrow!

interesting! Kind of a cool ability. But isn't it a little too mechanically similar to the Citadel (or whatever we've called it)? I know it doesn't take the land away, but in some ways that just makes it *less* useful. And the citadel is sort of harder to fight back against, sinc eyou can't just DoW to get rid of it.

Also, incidentally, this seems not very useful during actual war - which Amadicia presumably might have lots of - since you'd have to guard it very well or let it be easily pillaged.

Not sure whether it allows the original civ to have access or not.

Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul)

UAs:

• Dedicated Mission, +X (high, based on Population) Faith the first time Amadicia takes control of a foreign city, double when that city follows the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Dogmatic Domination, Amadician units receive +X combat strength against cities following Paths other than the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Spymaster's Network, Amadician units receive +X combat strength when attacking any city in which an Amadician Eyes and Ears is stationed. If a foreign Eyes and Ears is killed by Amadicia, all Amadician Eyes and Ears receive +Y% success rate for their next action.
• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 and Female2 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital.
• Spymaster's Sabotage, In addition to normal Eyes and Ears, in the Era of Consolidation Amadicia receives a Spymaster. The Spymaster functions as a normal Eyes and Ears, but has X% chance to sabotage the production in a city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W all accumulated production in that city to zero and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, All channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Hand of the Light, replaces the Questioner, +X Culture when affecting alignment in a foreign city. After <tech> +Y Prestige when affecting alignment in a foreign city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Guardians of the Gate (spawn), replaces Era 5-8 Melee, Ranged, Mounted, or Polearm unit, +X% combat strength. Z% to spawn a Herald when killing Shadowspawn in Amadician territory. Z% chance to spawn a Questioner when killing an enemy channeling unit.
• Guardians of the Gate (counter), replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Lord Captain's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, Receives +X% combat strength against cities following the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.

UBs:

• Fortress of the Light, replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Dome of Truth (Kills), replaces Alignment, +X Alignment and +Y Faith whenever this city destroys an enemy unit.
• Spymaster's Quarters, replaces Spy2, Stationing Eyes and Ears in this city reduces Unhappiness in this city by X% and causes citizens to produce W times their usual of their respective Alignment yield. Enemy Eyes and Ears caught in this city generate +Y Faith and +Z Prestige for Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Questioner's Quarters, replaces Alignment, Darkfriend citizens in this city produce double Alignment. this city can "Produce Righteousness", which switches 1 citizen from Darkfriend to Light citizen every X production or "Instigate Corruption", which switches 1 citizen from Light citizen to Darkfriend every Y production.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W all accumulated production in that city to zero and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

About Female1/2 and whether we should merge them. I think I'd want to look back through the civs and see how often we specifically want to replace Female2! Otherwise having just Female1 is probably more consistent with how Aes Sedai and Male Channelers work anyway, so I'm leaning towards eliminating Female2.

Cool. Lemme know what you dig up!

 

[S3rgeus]

Blarg! I was supposed to do some serious Amadicia brainstorming today, but no such luck! (I thought I was so close to the end of the Witcher 3, so I kept going. I was not close to the end. I still have not finished it and now it is late. >.> ) I'll do my post first thing when I get home tomorrow before continuing that!

 

[S3rgeus]

Back at last, no Witcher-3-based excuses this time!

However! Advance warning that I won't be home to post tomorrow evening or Wednesday, so I'll be back on Thursday!

your welcome!

I wouldn't have made it without your advice! :O

no, but your previous comment suggested this would combo well with one of the UEaE - I'm suggesting that that might not be the best idea.

Right, I was mostly thinking power-wise, that the original ability could be added onto the existing UEaE without making them overpowered, so if we found it wanting as a UA we could still use the mechanic there. But seeing as the ability stands alone now, this is moot!

re: color. Sorry, my bad! In related news, do you do your posts in bbcode or the rich text editor?

Definitely bbcode. I tried the rich text editor and it was ok, but a bit finicky. Then I copied a post into another text editor to save it to finish later and it lost all formatting, which I didn't realize until I went to continue it! So I had to redo all of the lists and coloring, which was a huge pain! The bbcode one round trips correctly from other text editors, so I'm sticking with it!

I think #1 is kind of just stacking on the same kind of bonus we already have. not as fun.

#2.... there's also another way to frame it, not as a bonus but as something else Amadicia can do with their excess Spark. Like use it to build other units or something - what if there was some weird way that "overloads" on other strategic drained Spark or something, but were allowed (probably would be quite costly)? That serves to discourage all types of channeler use except for AS, and empower them to do battle as well (or build <factory equivalents> and such.

#3 could be fine, but I feel like the "nearby" thing would have to be further than just a few hexes. Also, not super high either.

thoughts?

Agreed on #1

I like #2 mechanically, but what would the flavor be for that? Spark's flavor as the kind of quasi-genetic tendency to have children that can channel doesn't translate well into the other strategics, which are mostly consumable resources that fuel/supply the units they are required for.

Could their Herald replacement cost 1 Spark but a lot less Faith? That would give a similar usefulness to any Spark they have left. The flavor for that could be that they're Questioning channelers and it intimidates more of their people to the cause of their Path.

For #3, we'd probably want it to be about 3 or 4 hexes? Certainly very calibratable.

yeah, that could work.... any suggestions? Do we like this enough to keep around? I'm not sure either way.

Not really sure about its long term prospects - cities killing units in the late game will happen more for us than it does in BNW because of the LB, but it's still a diminishing mechanic in the late game compared to the early game, and this building is only available late. I feel like it should do something much stronger given when it unlocks. I've suggested a change to make it Alignment-agnostic below though.

Whether we do accusations or not, I'm not sure as to the % chance thing. It might be enough to simply use the Darkfriend composition of the city as a way to sort of divine the alignment of the previous owner. Also, That's a knock-on effect of messing with an opponent's alignment in cities - you might sway somebody to think they're a DF (or not one)!

The other weird thing is wondering what "the point" of this surviving building is *besides* the telegraph. Its a "Free" alignment building if you want it, or, often likely, a free "sold" building. Or, one that goes unnoticed if you forget to check.... I'm not sur eit's worth it. I suppose I'm leaning towards always destroying it. You?

Just to be clear on the % chance thing, this is how other buildings work already. There's a field on each building definition that defines its chance of surviving a city conquest. The wonders all have 100% chance of survival, but most of the other standard buildings have a 66% chance of surviving. Military buildings and national wonders have a 0% chance of surviving. So a % chance would keep the Alignment buildings consistent with other buildings.

That makes me think that the Alignment buildings would make sense the same as other buildings. And that one of their risks is that they might reveal your Alignment to another player if the city is captured - which is a more reasonable risk given how late in the game they unlock.

However, as you've said, looking at the buildings left in a city when you capture it isn't something players often do. (Though I believe selling all of the buildings and razing the city is something done often at higher difficulties.)

I think with the accusations, human players will start to use the information from surviving Alignment building, which, combined with the consistency with other buildings, leans me towards giving them a % chance of being destroyed.

But yeah, I'd say Accusations could be cool. What it's based on might always be conjecture - based on DF alignment, mysterious changes t oyour own alignment, behavior towards the Cleansing etc - but it might be cool. What's the effect, though? Anything "real"? What effect on Diplo for AI?

I'd say it should be a diplomatic tool, like denunciations. So there aren't any direct yield/unit/building/city consequences, just adjustments of various AI's opinions of you and each other.

Those all sound like good ways to get inklings of other players' Alignment. Eyes and Ears could also hint about the Alignment of the city they're in (which may deviate from the owning player's overall tendencies). Such messages could possibly also be planted by the player that owns the city. (Has a % chance of being wrong if there's a defending EaE in the city feeding them misinformation.)

I find I like these accusations as a diplomacy tool - it should add a bit more nuance to the diplo system, since it can pull together otherwise disparate civs (like Ideologies do in BNW), so we should end up with more varied blocs of power in the late game.

One thing to consider: this clearly works very well for accusing someone of being a Darkfriend. "X thinks Y is a Darkfriend!" *hatred ensues* But we need the inverse to work as well (we do need it both ways, right? or is just accusation-of-Darkfriend ok?). Would something along the lines of "X thinks Y is being overzealous in their righteousness" (Children-of-the-Light-style flavor) work for an "accusation of Light"?

I'll update the alignment summary once we settle 1)alignment building fate, 2)accusations, and 3) DF composition (below)

Awesome, thanks!

at the risk of oversimplifying, I'm sold! I like:

- DF composition persists, but...
- killed citizenry is determined at random

I think this is a good system because it rewards A) messing with your enemy's alignment via Questioners, and B) messing with your own alignment via Questioners after conquest.

Looks great! Not oversimplified, that's the actual core of our decision, so it's good to get it down succinctly in the summary!

Well, might it be the case that a spy's warning is too late to make a difference? If the Spymaster is already there, then he was going to attempt sabotage anyways. If not, would there be time to get him there in time?

But yeah, fixed production reduction is best.

In any case, your last points (frustration for enemy and transparency) are making me sour on this ability. Not redding it yet, but not loving it anymore.

For the time thing, it would depend on how long a sabotage takes (value of Y). Swapping the spies around takes about 3 turns, so if a wonder usually takes 15-30 turns to construct (in cities that should bother to do it), there would be time for a range of values of Y to get in there before the wonder finishes.

yeah... where did I get the term occupied from?

I think that's the term CiV uses for another city that you've conquered from another civ (whether annexed or puppeted, they're both occupied)!

I'm leaving this thing's colors alone as I'm not exactly sure how to simplify it.

As far as the name of the ability, I think we could theoretically come up with one word that words for both, like "Cleanse" or something - unless you wanted each city to have *both* options at all times.

I still wonder what the main "benefit"here is? Yeah, it allows you to spend production to change alignment, but you can *already* do that via Questioners, and presumably an Alignment building is working towards "correcting" your alignment anyways. I guess I wonder what the main benefit of the building is.

I think both options should be available, otherwise there needs to be some mechanism to switch from one to the other if the player changes their strategy. Unless there's a simple way to switch back and forth between their availability that the player could control easily. ("Put to The Question" is actually probably a good process name if we've only got one!)

The benefit is efficiency - these processes should be more citizens-converted-per-hammer than Questioners (and Questioners then used more on other players). This lets Amadicia commit more easily to an Alignment and much more easily deal with foreign Questioners messing with their Alignment. They switch a city over to Questioning for a few turns to undo a surge of Darkfriends in a given city, or use them liberally to almost completely wipe out the opposing Alignment citizen from their cities across the board, giving them more net Alignment from citizens over the course of the game.

interesting! Kind of a cool ability. But isn't it a little too mechanically similar to the Citadel (or whatever we've called it)? I know it doesn't take the land away, but in some ways that just makes it *less* useful. And the citadel is sort of harder to fight back against, sinc eyou can't just DoW to get rid of it.

Also, incidentally, this seems not very useful during actual war - which Amadicia presumably might have lots of - since you'd have to guard it very well or let it be easily pillaged.

Not sure whether it allows the original civ to have access or not.

It's intended for use against uneasy neighbors, rather than during a full scale war. Allows Amadicia to antagonize people without war/denunciations all over the place.

I don't think it compares unfavorably to the citadel. The citadel is an LP Improvement, whereas this one can be built by any worker. And the diplo penalty for stealing someone's resource would be less than that of permanently stealing some of their territory (they have to actually capture the nearest city from you to get it back). This Improvement's increased availability means to me that it shouldn't be as good as the citadel individually, otherwise it's probably too strong (and the citadel would then be largely pointless for Amadicia).


Recap! With new stuff after a proper brainstorm!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul)

UAs:

• Dedicated Mission, +X (high, based on Population) Faith the first time Amadicia takes control of a foreign city, double when that city follows the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Dogmatic Domination, Amadician units receive +X combat strength against cities following Paths other than the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Spymaster's Network, Amadician units receive +X combat strength when attacking any city in which an Amadician Eyes and Ears is stationed. If a foreign Eyes and Ears is killed by Amadicia, all Amadician Eyes and Ears receive +Y% success rate for their next action.
• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 and Female2 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital.
• Spymaster's Sabotage, In addition to normal Eyes and Ears, in the Era of Consolidation Amadicia receives a Spymaster. The Spymaster functions as a normal Eyes and Ears, but has X% chance to sabotage the production in a city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.
• Adherents to Scripture (option), Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.
• Adherents to Scripture (after), Amadicia may choose to (or to not) put some participants of a Thread's storyline to the Question after the Thread is resolved, earning them a bonus set of yields related to their choice.
• Adherents to Scripture (different), Amadicia encounters different Threads of the Pattern to other players, with newer, more lucrative response options available.
• Noble Sacrifice, when an Amadician unit dies, Amadicia receives +X Faith for each unit it controls adjacent to the hex that it died in.
• Followers' Treasure, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the same Path as the majority of Amadicia's cities, a new Craft Legendary Work is created and placed in a free slot (if one exists) in one of Amadicia's cities.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, All channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Hand of the Light (culture), replaces the Questioner, +X Culture when affecting alignment in a foreign city. After <tech> +Y Prestige when affecting alignment in a foreign city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Guardians of the Gate (spawn), replaces Era 5-8 Melee, Ranged, Mounted, or Polearm unit, +X% combat strength. Z% to spawn a Herald when killing Shadowspawn in Amadician territory. Z% chance to spawn a Questioner when killing an enemy channeling unit.
• Guardians of the Gate (counter), replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Lord Captain's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, Receives +X% combat strength against cities following the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Spymaster's Agent, replaces the Questioner. Informs Amadicia whether the city, after its Alignment has been affected by the Questioner, is more neutral or more extreme than other cities in the same civilization.

UBs:

• Fortress of the Light, replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Dome of Truth (Kills), replaces Alignment, +X Alignment and +Y Faith whenever this city destroys an enemy unit where X is equal to Z times the net Alignment output of this city's citizens.
• Spymaster's Quarters, replaces Spy2, Stationing Eyes and Ears in this city reduces Unhappiness in this city by X% and causes citizens to produce W times their usual Alignment yield. Enemy Eyes and Ears caught in this city generate +Y Faith and +Z Prestige for Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Questioner's Quarters, replaces Alignment, this city can "Produce Righteousness", which switches 1 citizen from Darkfriend to Light citizen every X production or "Instigate Corruption", which switches 1 citizen from Light citizen to Darkfriend every Y production.
• Garrison of the Light, replaces Exp4. When Amadicia chooses a side for the Last Battle, X units of a relevant type appear adjacent to this city based on their choice. (Triggers immediately upon construction if built after Amadicia has chosen a side.)
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

Three versions of Adherents to Scripture, which are all related to the mechanics of how Threads work. I realized we don't have any proposed uniques that interact with thread choices themselves, and figured Amadicia is quite a good candidate for having different Thread interactions. ("He pleads innocence" "Put him to the Question") For all of them, the choice rewards should provide Amadicia with ample opportunity to commit hard to one Alignment or the other and capitalize on their Children-related flavor.

(option) will make their experience the most consistent with other civs, but requires us to provide Amadicia-specific options for at least most of the Threads in order for the UA to be worthwhile. This will be a permanent ongoing thing we need to keep doing if we add new Threads in the future.

(after) is a bit of a compromise on the above to allow us to provide some fixed bonuses instead of needing per-Thread choices for them, but the flavor for this approach may be nonsensical for some Threads.

Surprisingly (different) may be less work than (option), since we don't need as many Threads to serve only Amadicia, and not all civs across multiple games. There's also a lot of flavor for putting Amadicia, through the Children, into positions where they need to make morality decisions.

For all 3 (particularly (option) and (different)), I think this would change how Amadician players deal with Threads quite a bit. We could be very aggressive with their choices. "+X Faith and your Path spreads to <city>" "Spawns X Questioners near your capital" "+500 Shadow, -1 Population in <city owned by another player>" Bigger things than the existing Thread choices' rewards have, to make it actually a consistent benefit to them, even though it's highly random which Threads they'll actually see.

Noble Sacrifice is about the death of the Children fighting the Shadow (and the Seanchan) in a few places in the canon. It avoids the usual trap of on-death abilities by making the bonus dependent on adjacent units, so Amadicia can't just send lone, useless units to die somewhere. It's only when they're fighting with several troops together that it helps them out.

Followers' Treasure encourages Amadicia to play strong with their Path and use it to fuel a very military Culture strategy. This is based on the flavor of several paintings of great battles existing in the Fortress of the Light (I think it was there? the painting of the Children charging a barricade or some such?).

Hand of the Light (path) lets Amadicia use its commitment to either Alignment to fuel spreading a Path (presumably theirs, most games) much faster than usual. I went with 500-ish for X to ballpark it significantly below Heralds since such units don't cost Faith and can't be seen by foreign civs. May need to be lower than 500.

Spymaster's Agent can be used to divine a bit more information about the Alignment of the player you're affecting. It's deliberately not direct to avoid making it too obvious, but using your own Alignment as a barometer, you could build up a good guess over the course of the game about whether a certain player is made more extreme or more neutral by your interference. (More extreme means you are either of the same Alignment, and you are higher tier than they are, or they're going Neutral. More neutral means you are either of opposing Alignments, or they are of a higher tier than you of the same Alignment.) The underlying mechanics of this would be based on the citizen progression for the target city, but the player just sees whether it's more neutral or more extreme after being affected. I do like that neither result gives you a 100% definite answer (particularly since it will vary city by city, so you need to assess it overall on a single player) about what the other player is doing, but does give you some good grounds for suspicion. And of course it compares to other cities in the same civ, which may not line up with their overall Alignment since citizens aren't the majority source of Alignment yields.

Garrison of the Light replaces a super late building, so I wanted its effects to be quite explosive. By "relevant type" I mean if Amadicia chooses Light, they'll get some modern units that they could produce, and if they choose Shadow, they'll get some Shadowspawn that, based on their Shadow tier, they could have produced. This will give them a strong LB presence. (I note that the LB isn't one of their marked victory types - should it be? It seems to go with their flavor, right?)

Dome of Truth (pressure) - another powerful late game building. Paths tend to wane in influence in the late game (provided our buffs haven't completely reversed that) and particularly which Paths control which places is much more entrenched. This could let Amadicia command a powerful Path spread toward the end of the game on continents they have cities on (very good on Pangaea, not so much on Archipelago), when other civs are stuck just defending what they control already.

Cool. Lemme know what you dig up!

Right, I've done some digging! Candidate replacements for female channelers, that we've added to the design list already:

• Aiel - Wise Ones - replaces the Kin
• Atha'an Miere - Windfinder - replaces the Wilder or Kin
• Seanchan - Sul'dam/Damane - replaces both
• Shara - Ayyad - replaces Wilder or Kin
• PC Seanchan - Matriarch - replaces the Wilder
• Altara - Knitting Circle Elder - replaces the Kin

We have one (PC Seanchan's Matriarch) that definitely replaces the Wilder. Two, the Sharan Ayyad and Sea Folk Windfinder, are marked as working for either. Two more, Aiel Wise Ones and Altaran Knitting Circle Elder, are marked as replacements for the Kin. Seanchan Sul'dam/Damane already replace both.

So only the Aiel and Altara deviate from their currently listed replacement if we remove Female2 and just stick with a single upgrading unit. I'm totally fine with the Wise Ones replacing the Wilder and existing over the whole timeline. The upgrade from Matriarch to Kin (and potentially Ayyad or Windfinder to Kin) would also be a bizarre one, which is another point in favor of eliminating Female2.

All of these UUs will go from being available for roughly half of the game to roughly the whole game. Are we ok with the balance of that? It would make them perpetually relevant.

It seems to me that with any of these units, the Kin being part of their upgrade path would be weird. Wilder before some of them does make some sense (time for their civ to actually establish itself and "become" its flavor). Ironically, it's probably the Knitting Circle Elder/UU Kin unlocking right away where the Wilder unlocks that will be the most flavorfully unusual if we eliminate Female2. The others are all civs that have existed in some form for most of the timeline and their unique channeler is a part of the identity that makes them different from the "normal" Westlands civs. (Weirdly, Matriarch upgrading into Sul'dam actually makes some flavorful sense, but that's obviously impossible based on how we've split the civs.)

There's always the "part way through unique" idea that you mentioned before - we can have the UU for the civ upgrade from the Wilder become available at a later tech, so we could do that for any of these units that we wanted to exist only later on in the game.

Overall, I think I'm up for eliminating the Female2 unit and just sticking with upgrading the Wilder. We can make the uniques slot in as appropriate.

 

[counterpoint]

Back at last, no Witcher-3-based excuses this time!

I assume it's really awesome, right? The game, not the excuses.

I wouldn't have made it without your advice! :O

ugh, did I really say "'your' welcome?"

Agreed on #1

I like #2 mechanically, but what would the flavor be for that? Spark's flavor as the kind of quasi-genetic tendency to have children that can channel doesn't translate well into the other strategics, which are mostly consumable resources that fuel/supply the units they are required for.

Could their Herald replacement cost 1 Spark but a lot less Faith? That would give a similar usefulness to any Spark they have left. The flavor for that could be that they're Questioning channelers and it intimidates more of their people to the cause of their Path.

For #3, we'd probably want it to be about 3 or 4 hexes? Certainly very calibratable.

Hmmm... very much not sure what to do with all this! I do see how #2 is kind of problematic...

The Herald thing could work, but then we have a situation where, despite epic faith output, a civ cannot build enough Heralds due to their low spark, or something... I suppose I wouldn't want a UA to be a hindrance very often. Also, are you talking about Questioners or Heralds? It seems like Heralds (they cost faith), but then you mention Questioning (they cost production).

ugh, don't know.

Not really sure about its long term prospects - cities killing units in the late game will happen more for us than it does in BNW because of the LB, but it's still a diminishing mechanic in the late game compared to the early game, and this building is only available late. I feel like it should do something much stronger given when it unlocks. I've suggested a change to make it Alignment-agnostic below though.

I think that change is fine. Still don't know if this should survive.......

Just to be clear on the % chance thing, this is how other buildings work already. There's a field on each building definition that defines its chance of surviving a city conquest. The wonders all have 100% chance of survival, but most of the other standard buildings have a 66% chance of surviving. Military buildings and national wonders have a 0% chance of surviving. So a % chance would keep the Alignment buildings consistent with other buildings.

That makes me think that the Alignment buildings would make sense the same as other buildings. And that one of their risks is that they might reveal your Alignment to another player if the city is captured - which is a more reasonable risk given how late in the game they unlock.

However, as you've said, looking at the buildings left in a city when you capture it isn't something players often do. (Though I believe selling all of the buildings and razing the city is something done often at higher difficulties.)

I think with the accusations, human players will start to use the information from surviving Alignment building, which, combined with the consistency with other buildings, leans me towards giving them a % chance of being destroyed.

OK, gun-to-my-head, I'd have said they were auto-destroyed, but I'm ok with this, I think.

I've updated the summary.

I'd say it should be a diplomatic tool, like denunciations. So there aren't any direct yield/unit/building/city consequences, just adjustments of various AI's opinions of you and each other.

stuff

Would something along the lines of "X thinks Y is being overzealous in their righteousness" (Children-of-the-Light-style flavor) work for an "accusation of Light"?

Mostly all very cool!

I'd say the EaE can't really tell you that "they're darkfriends," so much as report (probably vaguely) on the citizen composition of the city. This might be super meaningful, but might not be. I'd also consider tech-gating it or something.

Yeah, I think I'm down with the diplomatic "accusation" thing being a thing. Are you suggesting these are *separate* things - they tell you they think you are a <blank> and hate or, or they do so publicly? Or are they one and the same?

But yeah, in either case, I'd say it should be possible for both Alignments.

I will say, though, that I'd like this to be relatively minor, overall - I'd prefer Alignment to remain a mystery, for the most part.

Also put some of this stuff in the summary, provisionally.

Looks great! Not oversimplified, that's the actual core of our decision, so it's good to get it down succinctly in the summary!

in the summary

For the time thing, it would depend on how long a sabotage takes (value of Y). Swapping the spies around takes about 3 turns, so if a wonder usually takes 15-30 turns to construct (in cities that should bother to do it), there would be time for a range of values of Y to get in there before the wonder finishes.

right. noted.

I think both options should be available, otherwise there needs to be some mechanism to switch from one to the other if the player changes their strategy. Unless there's a simple way to switch back and forth between their availability that the player could control easily. ("Put to The Question" is actually probably a good process name if we've only got one!)

"Put to the Question" is great!

In any case, I'm not sure it *has* to have both options - AFter all, you don't have that with Questioners - they just pull you back towards Stability (right?). This is just a more efficient version of this, as you say. If you have the *choice*, it's most definitely *not* simply an efficient version of this, as it essentially lets you simply "buy" alignment points with production... quite different, mechanically.

And if we did *have* to have that, we could have it be "Put to the Question" and then just offer a choice of Alignment.

The benefit is efficiency - these processes should be more citizens-converted-per-hammer than Questioners (and Questioners then used more on other players). This lets Amadicia commit more easily to an Alignment and much more easily deal with foreign Questioners messing with their Alignment. They switch a city over to Questioning for a few turns to undo a surge of Darkfriends in a given city, or use them liberally to almost completely wipe out the opposing Alignment citizen from their cities across the board, giving them more net Alignment from citizens over the course of the game.

yeah, that last element is very, very different from the Role questioners play. It's "make your own alignment with production" - do we like that as a mechanic?

It's intended for use against uneasy neighbors, rather than during a full scale war. Allows Amadicia to antagonize people without war/denunciations all over the place.

I don't think it compares unfavorably to the citadel. The citadel is an LP Improvement, whereas this one can be built by any worker. And the diplo penalty for stealing someone's resource would be less than that of permanently stealing some of their territory (they have to actually capture the nearest city from you to get it back). This Improvement's increased availability means to me that it shouldn't be as good as the citadel individually, otherwise it's probably too strong (and the citadel would then be largely pointless for Amadicia).

right. Well, does it have the opposite effect, then, by trivializing an LP improvement?

Three versions of Adherents to Scripture, which are all related to the mechanics of how Threads work. I realized we don't have any proposed uniques that interact with thread choices themselves, and figured Amadicia is quite a good candidate for having different Thread interactions. ("He pleads innocence" "Put him to the Question") For all of them, the choice rewards should provide Amadicia with ample opportunity to commit hard to one Alignment or the other and capitalize on their Children-related flavor.

mostly fine with this notion, though it is a little weird to me, somehow - this sort of seems like an aspect of Amadicia that is very Childreny, and not Amadician at all. Oh well.

Also, huge flavor problem regarding LPs and such below.

(option) will make their experience the most consistent with other civs, but requires us to provide Amadicia-specific options for at least most of the Threads in order for the UA to be worthwhile. This will be a permanent ongoing thing we need to keep doing if we add new Threads in the future.

Yeah, that's a little bit of a pain, probably. It makes tweaking this ability mean tweaking *everything*. Also, how would we keep it alignment-agnostic, without having to create *two* new ones every time? Or, would that be exactly what we'd have to do?

On the other hand, this is kind of a weird situation, in that Questioning is, by its very nature, pretty much a Shadow Action, as we've been framing them in the game. So I'm not sure how we'd pull off "Put him to the Question, +Major Light" or something like that...

Obviously, this'd mean removing any references to Questioning that might already live in the Threads.

(after) is a bit of a compromise on the above to allow us to provide some fixed bonuses instead of needing per-Thread choices for them, but the flavor for this approach may be nonsensical for some Threads.

Right. Can see it making sense in some cases, and none at all in others. That weakens it, IMO. But it is simpler!

Surprisingly (different) may be less work than (option), since we don't need as many Threads to serve only Amadicia, and not all civs across multiple games. There's also a lot of flavor for putting Amadicia, through the Children, into positions where they need to make morality decisions.

Yeah, this one is interesting. It's possible that it would be easier to balance than (option), though of course any tweak we make still needs to be made to every one. Hard to say how "good" it is, at this point, though. It is cool in that it'll make Ama feel very different from other civs, and might make it more replayable. But it's also a potential weakness, in that it won't be obviously apparent how much better they are - you don't really "see" a bonus as you're playing a game, since you never "see" the original options.

For all 3 (particularly (option) and (different)), I think this would change how Amadician players deal with Threads quite a bit. We could be very aggressive with their choices. "+X Faith and your Path spreads to <city>" "Spawns X Questioners near your capital" "+500 Shadow, -1 Population in <city owned by another player>" Bigger things than the existing Thread choices' rewards have, to make it actually a consistent benefit to them, even though it's highly random which Threads they'll actually see.

Yeah, it would definitely change how they'd deal with them.

However, one really weird thing about this is that it would cause the Dreamwalker or the Wolfbrother (can't remember which one) to become a big-deal LP for Amadicia, since it (whoever it is) has the ability to give them another thread immediately. These are both rather terrible flavor-wise (especially the WB!) for Amadicia, as is the general urge it might cause towards them doing things related to T'a'r, which again has nothing to do with Amadicia. In general, any benefit caused by Threads feedbacks to both these LPs *and* T'a'r, which...

ultimately makes this line of abilities sadly kind of a tough sell, for me.... Any what to get around this fact?

I was originally going to suggest something that just augments the current threads we have - something like +X to all yields from Threads, or +Y% to all *alignment yields* of all threads, but I won't add it right now, considering the big issue just raised above (though perhaps the alignment yields one isn't so bad). In the case that this all is salvageable, what do you think of these ideas? Less crazy and fun, yes, but way simpler and easy to wrap one's head around (player and designer)

Noble Sacrifice is about the death of the Children fighting the Shadow (and the Seanchan) in a few places in the canon. It avoids the usual trap of on-death abilities by making the bonus dependent on adjacent units, so Amadicia can't just send lone, useless units to die somewhere. It's only when they're fighting with several troops together that it helps them out.

Right. Interesting!

Followers' Treasure encourages Amadicia to play strong with their Path and use it to fuel a very military Culture strategy. This is based on the flavor of several paintings of great battles existing in the Fortress of the Light (I think it was there? the painting of the Children charging a barricade or some such?).

Yeah, I like this one!

Hand of the Light (path) lets Amadicia use its commitment to either Alignment to fuel spreading a Path (presumably theirs, most games) much faster than usual. I went with 500-ish for X to ballpark it significantly below Heralds since such units don't cost Faith and can't be seen by foreign civs. May need to be lower than 500.

yeah, good chance 500 is still too high. It's invisible, *and* it costs production instead of Faith. I like the idea though!

Spymaster's Agent can be used to divine a bit more information about the Alignment of the player you're affecting.

stuff

which may not line up with their overall Alignment since citizens aren't the majority source of Alignment yields.

Hmm.m.. Interesting. Has some coolness to it for sure. I'm not so sure it's super *useful*, though. It seems to me that it'd only necessarily tell you much about that civ's alignment if you repeatedly bombard them with Questioners, which might not be ultimately worth it, just for that slice of info (there's not *that much* you can do with this information, especially if you're "all in" on a side like Amadicia is likely to be). I'm not sure yet. Has potential, but my be a bit overly complex without much real benefit.

Garrison of the Light replaces a super late building, so I wanted its effects to be quite explosive. By "relevant type" I mean if Amadicia chooses Light, they'll get some modern units that they could produce, and if they choose Shadow, they'll get some Shadowspawn that, based on their Shadow tier, they could have produced. This will give them a strong LB presence. (I note that the LB isn't one of their marked victory types - should it be? It seems to go with their flavor, right?)

I think LB is sort of defacto one of their LB types. I don't think they necessarily need to be based on direct flavor, but given all the Alignment stuff we're doing (which *does* feel flavorful), I think it's technically true.

This is an interesting idea. It's kind of weird as a regular building, though. What would X be? Like 3 or 4 or something? I guess it's weird in that there is a *huge* range of how many units they'd get (between, say, 3 for one city, or 30 for 10 cities). Might be a problem. Also, what happens if they build it after the LB starts? They get no benefit? I don't love that.

A national wonder would mitigate some of those problems... but that's a Tall thing.

Dome of Truth (pressure) - another powerful late game building. Paths tend to wane in influence in the late game (provided our buffs haven't completely reversed that) and particularly which Paths control which places is much more entrenched. This could let Amadicia command a powerful Path spread toward the end of the game on continents they have cities on (very good on Pangaea, not so much on Archipelago), when other civs are stuck just defending what they control already.

Cool, I think I mostly like this.

Recap! With new stuff after a proper brainstorm!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Dedicated Mission, +X (high, based on Population) Faith the first time Amadicia takes control of a foreign city, double when that city follows the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Dogmatic Domination, Amadician units receive +X combat strength against cities following Paths other than the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Spymaster's Network, Amadician units receive +X combat strength when attacking any city in which an Amadician Eyes and Ears is stationed. If a foreign Eyes and Ears is killed by Amadicia, all Amadician Eyes and Ears receive +Y% success rate for their next action.
• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 and Female2 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital.
• Spymaster's Sabotage, In addition to normal Eyes and Ears, in the Era of Consolidation Amadicia receives a Spymaster. The Spymaster functions as a normal Eyes and Ears, but has X% chance to sabotage the production in a city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.
• Adherents to Scripture (option), Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.
• Adherents to Scripture (after), Amadicia may choose to (or to not) put some participants of a Thread's storyline to the Question after the Thread is resolved, earning them a bonus set of yields related to their choice.
• Adherents to Scripture (different), Amadicia encounters different Threads of the Pattern to other players, with newer, more lucrative response options available.
• Noble Sacrifice, when an Amadician unit dies, Amadicia receives +X Faith for each unit it controls adjacent to the hex that it died in.
• Followers' Treasure, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the same Path as the majority of Amadicia's cities, a new Craft Legendary Work is created and placed in a free slot (if one exists) in one of Amadicia's cities.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, All channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Hand of the Light (culture), replaces the Questioner, +X Culture when affecting alignment in a foreign city. After <tech> +Y Prestige when affecting alignment in a foreign city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Guardians of the Gate (spawn), replaces Era 5-8 Melee, Ranged, Mounted, or Polearm unit, +X% combat strength. Z% to spawn a Herald when killing Shadowspawn in Amadician territory. Z% chance to spawn a Questioner when killing an enemy channeling unit.
• Guardians of the Gate (counter), replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Lord Captain's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, Receives +X% combat strength against cities following the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Spymaster's Agent, replaces the Questioner. Informs Amadicia whether the city, after its Alignment has been affected by the Questioner, is more neutral or more extreme than other cities in the same civilization.

UBs:

• Fortress of the Light, replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Dome of Truth (Kills), replaces Alignment, +X Alignment and +Y Faith whenever this city destroys an enemy unit where X is equal to Z times the net Alignment output of this city's citizens.
• Spymaster's Quarters, replaces Spy2, Stationing Eyes and Ears in this city reduces Unhappiness in this city by X% and causes citizens to produce W times their usual Alignment yield. Enemy Eyes and Ears caught in this city generate +Y Faith and +Z Prestige for Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Questioner's Quarters, replaces Alignment, this city can "Produce Righteousness", which switches 1 citizen from Darkfriend to Light citizen every X production or "Instigate Corruption", which switches 1 citizen from Light citizen to Darkfriend every Y production.
• Garrison of the Light, replaces Exp4. When Amadicia chooses a side for the Last Battle, X units of a relevant type appear adjacent to this city based on their choice. (Triggers immediately upon construction if built after Amadicia has chosen a side.)
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

OK, there's a LOT of magenta up there! There are a great many unanswered questions still hanging around all this stuff, obviously...

I don't have any new ideas for the time being though. Once we clarify all this pink, we'll have some culling to do!

Right, I've done some digging! Candidate replacements for female channelers, that we've added to the design list already:

• Aiel - Wise Ones - replaces the Kin
• Atha'an Miere - Windfinder - replaces the Wilder or Kin
• Seanchan - Sul'dam/Damane - replaces both
• Shara - Ayyad - replaces Wilder or Kin
• PC Seanchan - Matriarch - replaces the Wilder
• Altara - Knitting Circle Elder - replaces the Kin

We have one (PC Seanchan's Matriarch) that definitely replaces the Wilder. Two, the Sharan Ayyad and Sea Folk Windfinder, are marked as working for either. Two more, Aiel Wise Ones and Altaran Knitting Circle Elder, are marked as replacements for the Kin. Seanchan Sul'dam/Damane already replace both.

First off, thanks for doing this digging! Secondly, I'd contend that, realistically, the Sharan and Sea Folk units probably make the most sense as either only the end-game stuff, or both. I know those civs are nicely flexible in era, but those particular units don't really make sense as *not* existing in the back half of the game, especially given their distinctive flavor. I could be open to them being all-game, but *only* early-game seems a bit iffy.

So only the Aiel and Altara deviate from their currently listed replacement if we remove Female2 and just stick with a single upgrading unit. I'm totally fine with the Wise Ones replacing the Wilder and existing over the whole timeline. The upgrade from Matriarch to Kin (and potentially Ayyad or Windfinder to Kin) would also be a bizarre one, which is another point in favor of eliminating Female2.

All of these UUs will go from being available for roughly half of the game to roughly the whole game. Are we ok with the balance of that? It would make them perpetually relevant.

mostly agreed with your first set of comments.

As far as making them All-game. I think the right answer is probably to tech-lock the abilities/bonuses of the units - something that already happens for channelers (e.g. Linking, Traveling, T'a'r, etc.) such that the units only really "become" the unit at certain points in the game. There might be other, mostly trivial differences, but the meat would be era locked. This could work such that the Matriarch's ability ceases to be active at a certain point (whatever it was...)

It seems to me that with any of these units, the Kin being part of their upgrade path would be weird. Wilder before some of them does make some sense (time for their civ to actually establish itself and "become" its flavor). Ironically, it's probably the Knitting Circle Elder/UU Kin unlocking right away where the Wilder unlocks that will be the most flavorfully unusual if we eliminate Female2. The others are all civs that have existed in some form for most of the timeline and their unique channeler is a part of the identity that makes them different from the "normal" Westlands civs. (Weirdly, Matriarch upgrading into Sul'dam actually makes some flavorful sense, but that's obviously impossible based on how we've split the civs.)

crazy, re: Matriarch->suldam upgrade. Truly, *all* female channelers could "upgrade" to sul'dam, flavor-wise! (and certainly *damane!*)

Yeah, I don't see the upgrade logic or lack thereof for most of these being *that* different, honestly. It's not like an Aes Sedai upgrading to Wise One or something. I see your point, but I also assert that this kind of thing will be the case with a very many of our units (and is definitely the case in BNW, probably worse so).

There's always the "part way through unique" idea that you mentioned before - we can have the UU for the civ upgrade from the Wilder become available at a later tech, so we could do that for any of these units that we wanted to exist only later on in the game.

yeah, that's pretty clunky, I'd say. I'm fine with having abilities turn off and on, but that seems a little unintuitive, to me.

Overall, I think I'm up for eliminating the Female2 unit and just sticking with upgrading the Wilder. We can make the uniques slot in as appropriate.

Yeah, I'm actually pretty much with you too! I think I'd feel differently if we actually had a very compelling upgrade that was actually taking place when the Wilder becomes the Kin! As is, it's just "some upgrade," of which we have many, which makes it easy to just make it just another one of those upgrades, without a new unit designation.

So.... just Wilder, and all (most) of the Altaran UU's become the Kinswoman? I'd say the Knitting Circle flavor should survive in the UBs and stuff, then, yes?

And if we do this, I'd say the Kin *definitely* becomes a lock for Altara.

 

[S3rgeus]

I assume it's really awesome, right? The game, not the excuses.

It is! It's so awesome. It's a freaking masterpiece of a game. It avoids so many of the traps other RPGs fall into that make them less interesting. And Geralt is a great character - hilariously sarcastic at opportune times, but still somber and meaningful or gruff and aggressive when he needs to be. It's definitely up there on my list of favorite games of all time.

I will warn that it's monstrously long. It's not an endless replay machine like CiV (though there is the hardest difficult achievement...), but I'm at about 145 hours and I have none of the DLC.

ugh, did I really say "'your' welcome?"

You did

Hmmm... very much not sure what to do with all this! I do see how #2 is kind of problematic...

The Herald thing could work, but then we have a situation where, despite epic faith output, a civ cannot build enough Heralds due to their low spark, or something... I suppose I wouldn't want a UA to be a hindrance very often. Also, are you talking about Questioners or Heralds? It seems like Heralds (they cost faith), but then you mention Questioning (they cost production).

ugh, don't know.

I'm talking about Heralds, the Questioning mention is just flavor.

I'm thinking that #3 (boosted growth when there are no channeling units within X hexes of the city) looks like the one that works the best of them. I agree that a Spark cost on the Herald would have a noticeable number of situations where it would become a problem for the Amadicia player.

I think that change is fine. Still don't know if this should survive.......

I'm thinking much the same. We'll have a major culling phase soon, but it's looking fairly certain we'll remove this so I've marked it as red now.

OK, gun-to-my-head, I'd have said they were auto-destroyed, but I'm ok with this, I think.

I've updated the summary.

Awesome sounds good!

Mostly all very cool!

I'd say the EaE can't really tell you that "they're darkfriends," so much as report (probably vaguely) on the citizen composition of the city. This might be super meaningful, but might not be. I'd also consider tech-gating it or something.

Totally agreed, it should be info about that city, and only non-direct information. It should give you some comparative information that requires you to have other information to connect it with to make any judgements at all about the other player's Alignment.

I'd say we could have the EaE inform the player that the Alignment distribution of the city is more Shadow or more Light than the average for the opposing player? That way one city doesn't give you information either way - you need to gather info from several cities and put it together to even make any guesses. What other form could that information take? Some ideas:

• Visibility on the Alignment of some or all citizens in that city
• Whether the city's progression is more Shadow or Light than Neutral
• Where Questioners from this city have been used

Yeah, I think I'm down with the diplomatic "accusation" thing being a thing. Are you suggesting these are *separate* things - they tell you they think you are a <blank> and hate or, or they do so publicly? Or are they one and the same?

I think we want to do something like the denunciation, where they publicly accuse you of being a Darkfriend/Overzealous Dictator for the whole world to see. And other civs can have their opinions of you modified based on their own Alignment, their opinions of the Alignment of the accuser, and their opinions of both you and the accuser. (Tend to not believe people they hate, etc.) The human player could do this too.

There is a reversal to accusations though - what about people who think you share an Alignment with them? Is there anything specific about that or is it just a diplo modifier for the civ's attitude?

I think the simple modifier should exist regardless of what we decide above. "Elayne believes you both follow the same Alignment" in green when you hover over her opinion of you. (And the inverse for if they think you're working against them.)

But yeah, in either case, I'd say it should be possible for both Alignments.

Agreed, we can come up with the flavor for how we'll have an "accusation of Lightness" later on.

I will say, though, that I'd like this to be relatively minor, overall - I'd prefer Alignment to remain a mystery, for the most part.

Yes, it should remain unclear how accurate anyone's assessments are of any other players until everyone actually chooses a side. All of these mechanics are acting on information that are at best "suspicions".

Also put some of this stuff in the summary, provisionally.

Coolio, looks like we're firming up some more details above!

"Put to the Question" is great!

In any case, I'm not sure it *has* to have both options - AFter all, you don't have that with Questioners - they just pull you back towards Stability (right?). This is just a more efficient version of this, as you say. If you have the *choice*, it's most definitely *not* simply an efficient version of this, as it essentially lets you simply "buy" alignment points with production... quite different, mechanically.

And if we did *have* to have that, we could have it be "Put to the Question" and then just offer a choice of Alignment.

yeah, that last element is very, very different from the Role questioners play. It's "make your own alignment with production" - do we like that as a mechanic?

Yes, Questioners pull you back towards Stable.

The objective isn't to be a more efficient way of doing the same thing that Questioners do. It's to be more efficient at generating Alignment yield for your intended Alignment through citizens than Questioners are in your own cities. Questioners are useful for that since cities will be following older progressions for their older citizens that existed when Amadicia was on a less extreme Alignment tier (since, presumably, if they're committing to one side they're ascending through those tiers). So Questioners pull those cities back towards the Alignment the civ is trying to commit to. Amadicia having this ability would let them use it instead of Questioners on their own cities, because it's a more effective way of converting their citizens to their intended Alignment, and even lets them push beyond the Stable of their current tier - helping them generate more net yield toward their intended Alignment. (That's why it's a bonus.)

right. Well, does it have the opposite effect, then, by trivializing an LP improvement?

I don't think so - they have quite different impacts. The Citadel gives you that territory permanently, a single one steals multiple tiles, and also affects any enemies who end up fighting near it. The camp requires babysitting, but can be made much more easily. I think they complement each other quite well.

mostly fine with this notion, though it is a little weird to me, somehow - this sort of seems like an aspect of Amadicia that is very Childreny, and not Amadician at all. Oh well.

We would want to include some aspect of non-Children Amadicia in our sets at the end, but I don't think committing to the Children flavor is a drawback here at all. As we mentioned earlier on, Amadicia's history with the Children is much more entwined than Ghealdan's with the Prophet, so it makes sense that Amadicia would be more Children-y than Ghealdan is Prophet-y.

Yeah, that's a little bit of a pain, probably. It makes tweaking this ability mean tweaking *everything*. Also, how would we keep it alignment-agnostic, without having to create *two* new ones every time? Or, would that be exactly what we'd have to do?

I'm unsure about this - I think we'd probably want a mix. I don't think we need to add two new ones for every Thread. In some Threads there may be only one Amadicia-specific option and so a given Amadicia player in a given game may not want to pick that because it's against their intended Alignment, and that's fine. They don't need to benefit/choose their extra option on every Thread for the UA to benefit them enough overall over the course of the game. (And I don't think we want them to want to always pick their special option, because that diminishes the moral choice nature of the Threads system - it should still be a choice even with these options.)

So basically, I think we'd want to do the same process we did for the main choices, but we're just adding Amadicia choices instead of general ones. Some might have 2 Light Amadicia options. There might be just 1 Shadow one. 2 Shadow, etc. Whatever is appropriate for the Thread at hand.

On the other hand, this is kind of a weird situation, in that Questioning is, by its very nature, pretty much a Shadow Action, as we've been framing them in the game. So I'm not sure how we'd pull off "Put him to the Question, +Major Light" or something like that...

I don't think Questioning always has to be a Shadow action, it depends very much on how we frame the flavor of the Thread. I don't think we'd have any problem making situations where that would yield Light. And not all of the Amadician-specific options need to be "put X to the Question" - some options can be to not do so, or to do something that is related to the Questioning/Children flavor of Amadicia.

Obviously, this'd mean removing any references to Questioning that might already live in the Threads.

No, I don't think it would. There's no reason that Amadicia can't have flavorful Questioning/Children options while there are still Questioning options already available in the choices. Those don't seem to conflict to me - as long as they're not literally exactly the same options (existing ones and Amadicia-specific ones) then that's fine.

Right. Can see it making sense in some cases, and none at all in others. That weakens it, IMO. But it is simpler!

Yeah, it does weaken it. I'm not too big a fan of this approach - I think it will feel quite tacked on to the player. It does make it simpler for us to do, but I'm thinking now we'd probably choose another unrelated UA if this is the only way to make this kind of mechanic work.

Yeah, this one is interesting. It's possible that it would be easier to balance than (option), though of course any tweak we make still needs to be made to every one. Hard to say how "good" it is, at this point, though. It is cool in that it'll make Ama feel very different from other civs, and might make it more replayable. But it's also a potential weakness, in that it won't be obviously apparent how much better they are - you don't really "see" a bonus as you're playing a game, since you never "see" the original options.

Yeah, the advantage will only be visible to players who play more than one game (at least one as Amadicia, at least one as any other civ), which is a significant investment for a player. I think it will definitely be possible to make this a bonus, but the player won't see how it's a bonus until they can compare the Amadician choices to the choices faced by other civs.

Yeah, it would definitely change how they'd deal with them.

However, one really weird thing about this is that it would cause the Dreamwalker or the Wolfbrother (can't remember which one) to become a big-deal LP for Amadicia, since it (whoever it is) has the ability to give them another thread immediately. These are both rather terrible flavor-wise (especially the WB!) for Amadicia, as is the general urge it might cause towards them doing things related to T'a'r, which again has nothing to do with Amadicia. In general, any benefit caused by Threads feedbacks to both these LPs *and* T'a'r, which...

ultimately makes this line of abilities sadly kind of a tough sell, for me.... Any what to get around this fact?

I was originally going to suggest something that just augments the current threads we have - something like +X to all yields from Threads, or +Y% to all *alignment yields* of all threads, but I won't add it right now, considering the big issue just raised above (though perhaps the alignment yields one isn't so bad). In the case that this all is salvageable, what do you think of these ideas? Less crazy and fun, yes, but way simpler and easy to wrap one's head around (player and designer)

This is a very good point, and is a huge problem with these UAs. We'd definitely need a way to resolve it to consider keeping them going forward. It strikes me that our mechanics tie us in a way that isn't consistent with the flavor - these moral choices shouldn't be relevant only to civs that invest in T'a'r. I'm not suggesting that we go back and redesign the Dreamwalker and Wolfbrother, but I do feel like we should be able to make a civ that interacts with Threads without it being a T'a'r heavy civ as well. Looking at the LP abilities, it seems like the Wolfbrother is the main connection to Threads since he has an "encounter a new Thread now" ability. The Dreamwalker doesn't intersect with Threads really.

So, we'd need to find a way to disconnect that, which would probably involve another unique that interacts with/replaces the Wolfbrother. This does make sense for Amadicia, if we replace him with something that uses the flavor of their hatred for such people, instead of leaving them with the Wolfbrother to use as normal (and needs to spawn differently from the Wolfbrother). I've suggested a new UU to do this below.

yeah, good chance 500 is still too high. It's invisible, *and* it costs production instead of Faith. I like the idea though!

Yeah, it definitely has some advantages over the Herald there! We can tune it down easily if it's too strong.

Hmm.m.. Interesting. Has some coolness to it for sure. I'm not so sure it's super *useful*, though. It seems to me that it'd only necessarily tell you much about that civ's alignment if you repeatedly bombard them with Questioners, which might not be ultimately worth it, just for that slice of info (there's not *that much* you can do with this information, especially if you're "all in" on a side like Amadicia is likely to be). I'm not sure yet. Has potential, but my be a bit overly complex without much real benefit.

I think the benefit comes in two places: having more information about the other player's Alignment for Accusations and the like, and being able to choose an LB side that you think is going to be more successful.

I more think of this unique as something that provides an additional benefit for something that the player is already doing. If they're not using Questioners at all, then there's probably a problem with the Questioner system, not this unique. And they get some free upside (above) in addition to the normal effects they get from those Questioners. Also, if Amadicia wants to use more Questioners than other civs to gain more information about how those civs are going with their Alignment, then that's rewarding them for acting in a way that's consistent with Amadicia's flavor.

I think LB is sort of defacto one of their LB types. I don't think they necessarily need to be based on direct flavor, but given all the Alignment stuff we're doing (which *does* feel flavorful), I think it's technically true.

Sounds good!

This is an interesting idea. It's kind of weird as a regular building, though. What would X be? Like 3 or 4 or something? I guess it's weird in that there is a *huge* range of how many units they'd get (between, say, 3 for one city, or 30 for 10 cities). Might be a problem.

I was thinking 3 or 4 as well. It is a pretty big range, but if they've managed to build this quite late building in 10 separate cities then I'd say more power to them. The LB will be a slaughter-fest, so this many units won't go to waste. (They also may not want to do that since it would cost them a lot of money in unit maintenance.)

Also, what happens if they build it after the LB starts? They get no benefit? I don't love that.

I already put that in the suggestion. "(Triggers immediately upon construction if built after Amadicia has chosen a side.)" Agreed, it would be really bad if the building had to be constructed before the LB, otherwise it didn't do anything extra.

A national wonder would mitigate some of those problems... but that's a Tall thing.

Possibly, but as you've said, it's a Tall mechanic. I think the late unlock of the building makes this work better.



Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Dedicated Mission, +X (high, based on Population) Faith the first time Amadicia takes control of a foreign city, double when that city follows the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Dogmatic Domination, Amadician units receive +X combat strength against cities following Paths other than the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Spymaster's Network, Amadician units receive +X combat strength when attacking any city in which an Amadician Eyes and Ears is stationed. If a foreign Eyes and Ears is killed by Amadicia, all Amadician Eyes and Ears receive +Y% success rate for their next action.
• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 and Female2 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital.
• Spymaster's Sabotage, In addition to normal Eyes and Ears, in the Era of Consolidation Amadicia receives a Spymaster. The Spymaster functions as a normal Eyes and Ears, but has X% chance to sabotage the production in a city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.
• Adherents to Scripture (option), Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.
• Adherents to Scripture (after), Amadicia may choose to (or to not) put some participants of a Thread's storyline to the Question after the Thread is resolved, earning them a bonus set of yields related to their choice.
• Adherents to Scripture (different), Amadicia encounters different Threads of the Pattern to other players, with newer, more lucrative response options available.
• Noble Sacrifice, when an Amadician unit dies, Amadicia receives +X Faith for each unit it controls adjacent to the hex that it died in.
• Followers' Treasure, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the same Path as the majority of Amadicia's cities, a new Craft Legendary Work is created and placed in a free slot (if one exists) in one of Amadicia's cities.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, All channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Hand of the Light (culture), replaces the Questioner, +X Culture when affecting alignment in a foreign city. After <tech> +Y Prestige when affecting alignment in a foreign city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Guardians of the Gate (spawn), replaces Era 5-8 Melee, Ranged, Mounted, or Polearm unit, +X% combat strength. Z% to spawn a Herald when killing Shadowspawn in Amadician territory. Z% chance to spawn a Questioner when killing an enemy channeling unit.
• Guardians of the Gate (counter), replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Lord Captain's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, Receives +X% combat strength against cities following the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Spymaster's Agent, replaces the Questioner. Informs Amadicia whether the city, after its Alignment has been affected by the Questioner, is more neutral or more extreme than other cities in the same civilization.
• Hand of the Light (LP), replaces the Wolfbrother. Spawned by the use of Questioners by Amadicia, instead of T'a'r points. Has two abilities:
  
  • Put to the Question - 2 uses, must be used adjacent to a city. All of that city's citizens change to the Alignment of the net Alignment yield of that city.
  • Call an Inquisition - Amadicia encounters a new Thread immediately and this unit is expended.

UBs:

• Dome of Truth (strength), replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Dome of Truth (Kills), replaces Alignment, +X Alignment and +Y Faith whenever this city destroys an enemy unit where X is equal to Z times the net Alignment output of this city's citizens.
• Spymaster's Quarters, replaces Spy2, Stationing Eyes and Ears in this city reduces Unhappiness in this city by X% and causes citizens to produce W times their usual Alignment yield. Enemy Eyes and Ears caught in this city generate +Y Faith and +Z Prestige for Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Questioner's Quarters, replaces Alignment, this city can "Produce Righteousness", which switches 1 citizen from Darkfriend to Light citizen every X production or "Instigate Corruption", which switches 1 citizen from Light citizen to Darkfriend every Y production.
• Garrison of the Light, replaces Exp4. When Amadicia chooses a side for the Last Battle, X units of a relevant type appear adjacent to this city based on their choice. (Triggers immediately upon construction if built after Amadicia has chosen a side.)
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

Hand of the Light (LP) addresses the Wolfbrother issue you brought up above.

It creates a kind of new LP dynamic for Amadicia, where their use of Questioners contribute points toward generating a Hand of the Light (nice flavor overlap!). This allows them to connect back to Threads, which can be used in tandem with one of the Adherents to Scripture UAs, without investing in T'a'r (investing in T'a'r would be flavorfully problematic for Amadicia, as you've said). It also replaces the Wolfbrother's T'a'r ability with one that lets Amadicia drastically affect the Alignment of cities. Either its own, to commit harder to its intended Alignment, or an enemy city, to severely mess with theirs. By "the net output of the city" part - if the city is net producing +X Light (X > 0), then all citizens become Light, or if it's net +Y Shadow (Y > 0) then all citizens become Shadow.

And it's worth noting that information regarding the relative Lightness or Shadowness of a given enemy city is very relevant to this LP! Which is a cool mechanical overlap with some of our other EaE and Questioner unique options.

OK, there's a LOT of magenta up there! There are a great many unanswered questions still hanging around all this stuff, obviously...

Yeah, I think the only thing that doesn't have an active quote block is the name of Fortress of the Light? Shall we just go for Dome of Truth?

 

[S3rgeus]

I don't have any new ideas for the time being though. Once we clarify all this pink, we'll have some culling to do!

Agreed!

First off, thanks for doing this digging! Secondly, I'd contend that, realistically, the Sharan and Sea Folk units probably make the most sense as either only the end-game stuff, or both. I know those civs are nicely flexible in era, but those particular units don't really make sense as *not* existing in the back half of the game, especially given their distinctive flavor. I could be open to them being all-game, but *only* early-game seems a bit iffy.

mostly agreed with your first set of comments.

As far as making them All-game. I think the right answer is probably to tech-lock the abilities/bonuses of the units - something that already happens for channelers (e.g. Linking, Traveling, T'a'r, etc.) such that the units only really "become" the unit at certain points in the game. There might be other, mostly trivial differences, but the meat would be era locked. This could work such that the Matriarch's ability ceases to be active at a certain point (whatever it was...)

Agreed, I don't think we want those units to stop existing in the end game, since they had a very visible presence during the events of the book at the end of the game's time period!

More about ability unlocking and unit upgrading below. It's generally fine with me that some of their abilities would unlock later than the unit itself. I'm less sure about the ability stopping working, like for the Matriarch. I see why that might become necessary, but that doesn't feel good from a player experience point of view and will lead to strange optimal strategies of avoiding specific techs/eras for certain periods of time. I'd say let's try without it "relocking" any abilities first.

crazy, re: Matriarch->suldam upgrade. Truly, *all* female channelers could "upgrade" to sul'dam, flavor-wise! (and certainly *damane!*)

I was thinking more than PC Seanchan and Seanchan being the same place, the descendents of Matriarchs would have become Sul'dam/Damane!

Yeah, I don't see the upgrade logic or lack thereof for most of these being *that* different, honestly. It's not like an Aes Sedai upgrading to Wise One or something. I see your point, but I also assert that this kind of thing will be the case with a very many of our units (and is definitely the case in BNW, probably worse so).

I dunno, I think this would be a bigger flaw than the BNW disparities or our other units. I do see it very much like an Aes Sedai upgrading to a Wise One. One of the flaws would actually be a Wise One upgrading into a Kinswoman, which is a serious flavor disparity, IMO.

It seems like we mostly agree on this though, based on what you've mentioned below about the Kin not being a compelling "upgrade" for the Wilder.

yeah, that's pretty clunky, I'd say. I'm fine with having abilities turn off and on, but that seems a little unintuitive, to me.

I don't think that's clunky at all. They'd be listed as another unit on the tree for that civ and would upgrade and become produceable/upgradable-into exactly like every other unit that has any upgrades.

I'm ok with the mechanics of unlocking abilities on techs, but that does seem like it's the one that deviates more from how units already work. From an individual player's point of view, they've got a new upgrade unit that works the same other upgrades. Turning off abilities certainly seems very strange, though I can see why we might mechanically need to do it eventually, I would want to try not doing that at all first and only introducing ability-disables-after-tech if we really need to for a specific problematic ability.

The main design deviation is that they're no longer replacing an existing non-unique unit, but are instead providing a new upgrade to a unit that previously didn't have one. Given the extended lifespan of the Wilder unit, compared to all others, I think this is a reasonable change.

This makes me think that the deciding factor between the two choices (pros and cons for both, and both can also be combined with each other) should be the flavor of what makes sense with how the game is structured and how that represents the canon. In the After Breaking, it seems to me that they're all Wilders, and become the representatives of their civ's distinct Culture at a later time, as those Cultures establish themselves. Some will be in the early game (Wise Ones), and others later (Sul'dam, Kin). That makes me think it's sensible to start with the Wilder and upgrade to those units at a given tech. (The Kin in the After Breaking era don't make sense, for example.) We may also have some units that replace the Wilder completely from the beginning or others that unlock after the Wilder but their abilities don't unlock fully until an even later tech; they needn't all do this the same way.

Yeah, I'm actually pretty much with you too! I think I'd feel differently if we actually had a very compelling upgrade that was actually taking place when the Wilder becomes the Kin! As is, it's just "some upgrade," of which we have many, which makes it easy to just make it just another one of those upgrades, without a new unit designation.

Definitely agreed, the root of the issue with a Female2 unit is that we don't have any compelling flavor to use for a unit that represents a Wilder who has "upgraded" in some way. (Which is probably because Wilders are still the thing in the present of the books - they haven't been "outclassed" by anything new over the course of history since the Breaking, in the non-Aes-Sedai-channeler space that they exist.)

So, no non-unique Wilder upgrade is our decision! More related stuff above that we'll sort out imminently.

So.... just Wilder, and all (most) of the Altaran UU's become the Kinswoman? I'd say the Knitting Circle flavor should survive in the UBs and stuff, then, yes?

Yep, sounds good! I've changed Altara.

And if we do this, I'd say the Kin *definitely* becomes a lock for Altara.

Yep, agreed! The KCE was already in both sets, so we're good on this.

 

[counterpoint]

It is! It's so awesome. It's a freaking masterpiece of a game. It avoids so many of the traps other RPGs fall into that make them less interesting. And Geralt is a great character - hilariously sarcastic at opportune times, but still somber and meaningful or gruff and aggressive when he needs to be. It's definitely up there on my list of favorite games of all time.

I will warn that it's monstrously long. It's not an endless replay machine like CiV (though there is the hardest difficult achievement...), but I'm at about 145 hours and I have none of the DLC.

Yeah, so how about in comparison to W1 and W2? Most of the things you've said here apply to both of those games, too... (at least the second, certainly). In any case, I'll be on it eventually, I'm sure! Wonder if my pc can handle it...

I'm talking about Heralds, the Questioning mention is just flavor.

I'm thinking that #3 (boosted growth when there are no channeling units within X hexes of the city) looks like the one that works the best of them. I agree that a Spark cost on the Herald would have a noticeable number of situations where it would become a problem for the Amadicia player.

ok. Don't love this, but I think it's fine.

I'm thinking much the same. We'll have a major culling phase soon, but it's looking fairly certain we'll remove this so I've marked it as red now.

nook

Totally agreed, it should be info about that city, and only non-direct information. It should give you some comparative information that requires you to have other information to connect it with to make any judgements at all about the other player's Alignment.

I'd say we could have the EaE inform the player that the Alignment distribution of the city is more Shadow or more Light than the average for the opposing player? That way one city doesn't give you information either way - you need to gather info from several cities and put it together to even make any guesses. What other form could that information take? Some ideas:

• Visibility on the Alignment of some or all citizens in that city
• Whether the city's progression is more Shadow or Light than Neutral
• Where Questioners from this city have been used

The issue with this, IMO, is that this gives you very big picture information about their civ as a whole, which seems like it shouldn't be info you should be able to get from spying on a single city. I know it's partial information, but it still feels a little odd to me. Plus, it doesn't make much intuitive sense. The city could be "average," but all darkfriends, and your spy wouldn't see anything at all.

Also, if you spied and then conquered the city, you'd have pretty reasonable certainly what side of the spectrum they were on.

That said, I'm not quite sure what else I'd suggest. clearly given city-only information is likely to have the effect of exposing specifics about alignment-spread in that city, which is certainly likely to *actually* be more revealing to the spying civ. Saying whether it's stable or not is something, but that's not all that useful, I guess.

so, pretty much not sure about all this!

I think we want to do something like the denunciation, where they publicly accuse you of being a Darkfriend/Overzealous Dictator for the whole world to see. And other civs can have their opinions of you modified based on their own Alignment, their opinions of the Alignment of the accuser, and their opinions of both you and the accuser. (Tend to not believe people they hate, etc.) The human player could do this too.

There is a reversal to accusations though - what about people who think you share an Alignment with them? Is there anything specific about that or is it just a diplo modifier for the civ's attitude?

I think the simple modifier should exist regardless of what we decide above. "Elayne believes you both follow the same Alignment" in green when you hover over her opinion of you. (And the inverse for if they think you're working against them.)

Yeah, I think the reverse should be true. That's an interesting distinction from denunciations (you can't like somebody *more* when they get denounced). Of course, we'll have situations where multiple civs might make opposite declamations about the same civ. We'll have to have a relatively complex system that weighs all of these, and the civs own "evidence," to ultimately decide what it thinks of a given civ.

The rest of those modifiers sound good to me.

Yes, Questioners pull you back towards Stable.

The objective isn't to be a more efficient way of doing the same thing that Questioners do. It's to be more efficient at generating Alignment yield for your intended Alignment through citizens than Questioners are in your own cities. Questioners are useful for that since cities will be following older progressions for their older citizens that existed when Amadicia was on a less extreme Alignment tier (since, presumably, if they're committing to one side they're ascending through those tiers). So Questioners pull those cities back towards the Alignment the civ is trying to commit to. Amadicia having this ability would let them use it instead of Questioners on their own cities, because it's a more effective way of converting their citizens to their intended Alignment, and even lets them push beyond the Stable of their current tier - helping them generate more net yield toward their intended Alignment. (That's why it's a bonus.)

Right. So, do we like production=unlimited alignment? Any chance of weirdness from that?

I could also see a somewhat flavorful, but epic variant of this where you sacrifice a point of population for some huge shift in citizen alignment...

I don't think so - they have quite different impacts. The Citadel gives you that territory permanently, a single one steals multiple tiles, and also affects any enemies who end up fighting near it. The camp requires babysitting, but can be made much more easily. I think they complement each other quite well.

ok then

I'm unsure about this - I think we'd probably want a mix. I don't think we need to add two new ones for every Thread. In some Threads there may be only one Amadicia-specific option and so a given Amadicia player in a given game may not want to pick that because it's against their intended Alignment, and that's fine. They don't need to benefit/choose their extra option on every Thread for the UA to benefit them enough overall over the course of the game. (And I don't think we want them to want to always pick their special option, because that diminishes the moral choice nature of the Threads system - it should still be a choice even with these options.)

So basically, I think we'd want to do the same process we did for the main choices, but we're just adding Amadicia choices instead of general ones. Some might have 2 Light Amadicia options. There might be just 1 Shadow one. 2 Shadow, etc. Whatever is appropriate for the Thread at hand.

ok, duly noted. Still seems like a pain to keep all of those balanced, but I see what you're saying.

I don't think Questioning always has to be a Shadow action, it depends very much on how we frame the flavor of the Thread. I don't think we'd have any problem making situations where that would yield Light. And not all of the Amadician-specific options need to be "put X to the Question" - some options can be to not do so, or to do something that is related to the Questioning/Children flavor of Amadicia.

that's true, *not* torturing is always a possible option... though the other choices are likely to already be doing that.

I'd still be hard-pressed to imagine a put-them-to-the-question scenario that generates light, though, considering the way the other threads have worked.

No, I don't think it would. There's no reason that Amadicia can't have flavorful Questioning/Children options while there are still Questioning options already available in the choices. Those don't seem to conflict to me - as long as they're not literally exactly the same options (existing ones and Amadicia-specific ones) then that's fine.

ok, I guess this depends on the specifics. But, it certainly takes away a lot of the oomph if everybody's already torturing people, and now Amadicia can... torture people.

Yeah, it does weaken it. I'm not too big a fan of this approach - I think it will feel quite tacked on to the player. It does make it simpler for us to do, but I'm thinking now we'd probably choose another unrelated UA if this is the only way to make this kind of mechanic work.

yeah, agreed. red.

Yeah, the advantage will only be visible to players who play more than one game (at least one as Amadicia, at least one as any other civ), which is a significant investment for a player. I think it will definitely be possible to make this a bonus, but the player won't see how it's a bonus until they can compare the Amadician choices to the choices faced by other civs.

right. I can't tell yet how big of a problem I think that is.

This is a very good point, and is a huge problem with these UAs. We'd definitely need a way to resolve it to consider keeping them going forward. It strikes me that our mechanics tie us in a way that isn't consistent with the flavor - these moral choices shouldn't be relevant only to civs that invest in T'a'r. I'm not suggesting that we go back and redesign the Dreamwalker and Wolfbrother, but I do feel like we should be able to make a civ that interacts with Threads without it being a T'a'r heavy civ as well. Looking at the LP abilities, it seems like the Wolfbrother is the main connection to Threads since he has an "encounter a new Thread now" ability. The Dreamwalker doesn't intersect with Threads really.

So, we'd need to find a way to disconnect that, which would probably involve another unique that interacts with/replaces the Wolfbrother. This does make sense for Amadicia, if we replace him with something that uses the flavor of their hatred for such people, instead of leaving them with the Wolfbrother to use as normal (and needs to spawn differently from the Wolfbrother). I've suggested a new UU to do this below.

right. UU discussed below. But as far as this issue in general, I think I'm not in favor of spending the time to change the WB's ability until we're positive that one of these Thread abilities will "stick" on Amadicia. What you're saying does represent some kind of disconnect, flavorwise, but that's not a huge problem unless we necessarily have a civ that has a unique that relates to it - and Amadicia is our last chance to do so, for now. Part of my reluctance to change thing is that I do remember abilities for these LPs being pretty tricky to invent.

So, I view these abilities with greater skepticism because of this, but won't exclude them for it, but also won't change the WB until we've decided that one of these "wins."

I think the benefit comes in two places: having more information about the other player's Alignment for Accusations and the like, and being able to choose an LB side that you think is going to be more successful.

I more think of this unique as something that provides an additional benefit for something that the player is already doing. If they're not using Questioners at all, then there's probably a problem with the Questioner system, not this unique. And they get some free upside (above) in addition to the normal effects they get from those Questioners. Also, if Amadicia wants to use more Questioners than other civs to gain more information about how those civs are going with their Alignment, then that's rewarding them for acting in a way that's consistent with Amadicia's flavor.

I still view this as mostly a fringe benefit. It's only specifically helpful in games where your choice in alignment, and foreknowledge of other civs choices, is up in the air and particularly important. I imagine that in most games, players will manipulate Questioners to keep their alignment stable, and mess with other's to keep them from getting as good LB bonuses, but I imagine most pathways through the game will lead to people being pretty "set" in their alignment and LB side, regardless of what everybody else is doing (unless everybody else is going somewhere).

I already put that in the suggestion. "(Triggers immediately upon construction if built after Amadicia has chosen a side.)" Agreed, it would be really bad if the building had to be constructed before the LB, otherwise it didn't do anything extra.

right. i get it.

Hand of the Light (LP) addresses the Wolfbrother issue you brought up above.

It creates a kind of new LP dynamic for Amadicia, where their use of Questioners contribute points toward generating a Hand of the Light (nice flavor overlap!). This allows them to connect back to Threads, which can be used in tandem with one of the Adherents to Scripture UAs, without investing in T'a'r (investing in T'a'r would be flavorfully problematic for Amadicia, as you've said). It also replaces the Wolfbrother's T'a'r ability with one that lets Amadicia drastically affect the Alignment of cities. Either its own, to commit harder to its intended Alignment, or an enemy city, to severely mess with theirs. By "the net output of the city" part - if the city is net producing +X Light (X > 0), then all citizens become Light, or if it's net +Y Shadow (Y > 0) then all citizens become Shadow.

And it's worth noting that information regarding the relative Lightness or Shadowness of a given enemy city is very relevant to this LP! Which is a cool mechanical overlap with some of our other EaE and Questioner unique options.

interesting! very interesting.

It does feel pretty cool to replace their WB, since they are so anti-Perrin. And this does stack with some of the other options pretty well.

A few concerns/questions:

This LP is still "linked" to the Dreamwalker, as the WB would be in the way that LPs are linked to one another in BNW, right? Make the same governors, are bought by the same policy-tree-unlock, and... possible scale in cost together? I mention this to question whether this has some unintended, problematic consequences.

I do think the first ability might be too ridiculously good, especially for Shadow. I think it needs to be tweaked. Consider that every DF Citizen is worth *5* light citizens. So, if you're marginally shadow, *boom*, you are now gaining, potentially, 200 extra shadow per turn in a big city. DF's are supposed to be fewer in number, in part for the aesthetics of all of it - a "city of darkfriends" is an absurd thing. But mechanically, this favors Shadow very, very heavily, which is problematic.

Way to fix that?

Also, I think using it on an opponent only seriousyl messes with their alignment if they're shooting for neutral... unless you're bombarding them with Questioners. If I'm mariginally light, you're actually doing me a favor by doing this (assuming I'm going for light). Obviously, if Amadicia is shadow, and you can Question me into marginal shadowness, you could then mess up my life big time... but that's a rather lot of work.

Yeah, I think the only thing that doesn't have an active quote block is the name of Fortress of the Light? Shall we just go for Dome of Truth?

yeah. i'd intended to do this a long time ago, but i succeeded in merely turning it green... without actually changing anything.

Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Dedicated Mission, +X (high, based on Population) Faith the first time Amadicia takes control of a foreign city, double when that city follows the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Dogmatic Domination, Amadician units receive +X combat strength against cities following Paths other than the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Spymaster's Network, Amadician units receive +X combat strength when attacking any city in which an Amadician Eyes and Ears is stationed. If a foreign Eyes and Ears is killed by Amadicia, all Amadician Eyes and Ears receive +Y% success rate for their next action.
• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 and Female2 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units. +Y% growth in Amadician cities whenever there are no channeling units within Z hexes of the city.
  
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital.
• Spymaster's Sabotage, In addition to normal Eyes and Ears, in the Era of Consolidation Amadicia receives a Spymaster. The Spymaster functions as a normal Eyes and Ears, but has X% chance to sabotage the production in a city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.
• Adherents to Scripture (option), Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.
• Adherents to Scripture (after), Amadicia may choose to (or to not) put some participants of a Thread's storyline to the Question after the Thread is resolved, earning them a bonus set of yields related to their choice.
• Adherents to Scripture (different), Amadicia encounters different Threads of the Pattern to other players, with newer, more lucrative response options available.
• Noble Sacrifice, when an Amadician unit dies, Amadicia receives +X Faith for each unit it controls adjacent to the hex that it died in.
• Followers' Treasure, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the same Path as the majority of Amadicia's cities, a new Craft Legendary Work is created and placed in a free slot (if one exists) in one of Amadicia's cities.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, All channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Hand of the Light (culture), replaces the Questioner, +X Culture when affecting alignment in a foreign city. After <tech> +Y Prestige when affecting alignment in a foreign city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Guardians of the Gate (spawn), replaces Era 5-8 Melee, Ranged, Mounted, or Polearm unit, +X% combat strength. Z% to spawn a Herald when killing Shadowspawn in Amadician territory. Z% chance to spawn a Questioner when killing an enemy channeling unit.
• Guardians of the Gate (counter), replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Lord Captain's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, Receives +X% combat strength against cities following the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Spymaster's Agent, replaces the Questioner. Informs Amadicia whether the city, after its Alignment has been affected by the Questioner, is more neutral or more extreme than other cities in the same civilization.
• Hand of the Light (LP), replaces the Wolfbrother. Spawned by the use of Questioners by Amadicia, instead of T'a'r points. Has two abilities:
  
  • Put to the Question - 2 uses, must be used adjacent to a city. All of that city's citizens change to the Alignment of the net Alignment yield of that city.
    
  • Call an Inquisition - Amadicia encounters a new Thread immediately and this unit is expended.

UBs:

• Dome of Truth (strength), replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Spymaster's Quarters, replaces Spy2, Stationing Eyes and Ears in this city reduces Unhappiness in this city by X% and causes citizens to produce W times their usual Alignment yield. Enemy Eyes and Ears caught in this city generate +Y Faith and +Z Prestige for Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Questioner's Quarters, replaces Alignment, this city can "Produce Righteousness", which switches 1 citizen from Darkfriend to Light citizen every X production or "Instigate Corruption", which switches 1 citizen from Light citizen to Darkfriend every Y production.
• Garrison of the Light, replaces Exp4. When Amadicia chooses a side for the Last Battle, X units of a relevant type appear adjacent to this city based on their choice. (Triggers immediately upon construction if built after Amadicia has chosen a side.)
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

OK, I'd hoped to start off the culling, but I've run out of time for the night! Care to start?

 

[counterpoint]

Agreed, I don't think we want those units to stop existing in the end game, since they had a very visible presence during the events of the book at the end of the game's time period!

More about ability unlocking and unit upgrading below. It's generally fine with me that some of their abilities would unlock later than the unit itself. I'm less sure about the ability stopping working, like for the Matriarch. I see why that might become necessary, but that doesn't feel good from a player experience point of view and will lead to strange optimal strategies of avoiding specific techs/eras for certain periods of time. I'd say let's try without it "relocking" any abilities first.

ok, sure. Totally don't remember what the Matriarch does and can't immediately figure out how to search threads - is this an ability that is problematic to allow in the late game? Ideally, it is something that fades in usefulness overtime anyways.

I was thinking more than PC Seanchan and Seanchan being the same place, the descendents of Matriarchs would have become Sul'dam/Damane!

true!

I don't think that's clunky at all. They'd be listed as another unit on the tree for that civ and would upgrade and become produceable/upgradable-into exactly like every other unit that has any upgrades.

I'm ok with the mechanics of unlocking abilities on techs, but that does seem like it's the one that deviates more from how units already work. From an individual player's point of view, they've got a new upgrade unit that works the same other upgrades. Turning off abilities certainly seems very strange, though I can see why we might mechanically need to do it eventually, I would want to try not doing that at all first and only introducing ability-disables-after-tech if we really need to for a specific problematic ability.

turning off abilities aside (see above), turning on abilities throughout the game is not a deviation on how units already work in our game. It's not a part of BNW, but we've already established exactly that throughout for channeling units (and others?)

The main design deviation is that they're no longer replacing an existing non-unique unit, but are instead providing a new upgrade to a unit that previously didn't have one. Given the extended lifespan of the Wilder unit, compared to all others, I think this is a reasonable change.

This makes me think that the deciding factor between the two choices (pros and cons for both, and both can also be combined with each other) should be the flavor of what makes sense with how the game is structured and how that represents the canon. In the After Breaking, it seems to me that they're all Wilders, and become the representatives of their civ's distinct Culture at a later time, as those Cultures establish themselves. Some will be in the early game (Wise Ones), and others later (Sul'dam, Kin). That makes me think it's sensible to start with the Wilder and upgrade to those units at a given tech. (The Kin in the After Breaking era don't make sense, for example.) We may also have some units that replace the Wilder completely from the beginning or others that unlock after the Wilder but their abilities don't unlock fully until an even later tech; they needn't all do this the same way.

I can mostly get on board with this. No huge problems.

Do all the units upgrade automatically, or is it like normal units (you pay to upgrade them). If its the latter (which makes more sense), this does create some unintendd weirdness, where we've established, for instance, a non-combat Kin for Altara, but they've stockpiled a whole bunch of Wilders that they never convert to Kin but still upgrade their stats as the tech tree advances. Don't like that at all. Worse - building wilders before the suldam unlocks and keeping them around!

Yep, sounds good! I've changed Altara.

yes, but has Altara changed you?

 

[S3rgeus]

Sorry for the delay! Got home late last night so I didn't have time to finish the post below! We're back now though!

Yeah, so how about in comparison to W1 and W2? Most of the things you've said here apply to both of those games, too... (at least the second, certainly). In any case, I'll be on it eventually, I'm sure! Wonder if my pc can handle it...

I haven't actually played the previous two! I tried to, but I found their gameplay has aged very badly. I only got about 2 hours in but I couldn't deal with the clunky controls. I feel like it would have been good to know some of the story from before, but it certainly wasn't essential (I've worked the majority of it out, though I'm sure I missed loads of little nods). I've been playing on Xbox, so no spec concerns here.

The issue with this, IMO, is that this gives you very big picture information about their civ as a whole, which seems like it shouldn't be info you should be able to get from spying on a single city. I know it's partial information, but it still feels a little odd to me. Plus, it doesn't make much intuitive sense. The city could be "average," but all darkfriends, and your spy wouldn't see anything at all.

Also, if you spied and then conquered the city, you'd have pretty reasonable certainly what side of the spectrum they were on.

That said, I'm not quite sure what else I'd suggest. clearly given city-only information is likely to have the effect of exposing specifics about alignment-spread in that city, which is certainly likely to *actually* be more revealing to the spying civ. Saying whether it's stable or not is something, but that's not all that useful, I guess.

so, pretty much not sure about all this!

Saying whether the city is Stable or not could sort of be useful. If you know you've used Questioners on the city, you could make some guesses about what the city's distribution was like before. It's still very tangential only though, and will often be useless information.

You're right that local-city-only information is more revealing of the defending player's Alignment, but also that the civ-wide perspective is an odd piece of info to get from spying on a specific city.

What about telling you what nationality of Questioners have been used on this city? That would let you build up a kind of opinion about the city's distribution based on your opinions of the civs that have used Questioners there. It would rely on the player forming a baseline opinion to base that off from other sources aside from EaE though.

Another option is of course to not have EaE reveal any Alignment hints!

Yeah, I think the reverse should be true. That's an interesting distinction from denunciations (you can't like somebody *more* when they get denounced). Of course, we'll have situations where multiple civs might make opposite declamations about the same civ. We'll have to have a relatively complex system that weighs all of these, and the civs own "evidence," to ultimately decide what it thinks of a given civ.

The rest of those modifiers sound good to me.

Agreed, it is quite interesting that such an accusation could make another civ like you more!

I don't think the system itself will be complex per se, it will be more about complex interactions between simple systems. The AI likes people it thinks are the same Alignment as it and dislikes the inverse. It gives more weight to the accusations of players it likes. I think that's mostly it?

Very true about the evidence though! How the AI works out what Alignment it thinks a given other player is will probably be quite complicated.

Right. So, do we like production=unlimited alignment? Any chance of weirdness from that?

I could also see a somewhat flavorful, but epic variant of this where you sacrifice a point of population for some huge shift in citizen alignment...

Hmmm, not really sure. It would mean they could commit really hard to a given Alignment, but as we've seen from other processes (convert to Gold, convert to Science), they're not very compelling player experience options. Seeing as we're culling below, I'm going with red.

ok, duly noted. Still seems like a pain to keep all of those balanced, but I see what you're saying.

Yeah, it would be creating a lot of new stuff!

that's true, *not* torturing is always a possible option... though the other choices are likely to already be doing that.

I'd still be hard-pressed to imagine a put-them-to-the-question scenario that generates light, though, considering the way the other threads have worked.

I think I've been too narrow in my explanations of what this flavor could be. The new options/Amadicia-specific-Threads shouldn't present only Questioning-related options, they should be things tied directly to Amadicia's own flavor and the Children. That will include Questioning because it will often be relevant, but also provides ample opportunity for other kinds of choices which could generate Light as we need it.

ok, I guess this depends on the specifics. But, it certainly takes away a lot of the oomph if everybody's already torturing people, and now Amadicia can... torture people.

I don't think so, the oomph isn't that Amadicia is doing something completely different from other civs. The oomph is they have extra choices that other civs don't, so they're a lot more likely to have a Thread choice amenable to their game plan for a given Thread. It has a significant impact regardless of the flavor of either side.

right. UU discussed below. But as far as this issue in general, I think I'm not in favor of spending the time to change the WB's ability until we're positive that one of these Thread abilities will "stick" on Amadicia. What you're saying does represent some kind of disconnect, flavorwise, but that's not a huge problem unless we necessarily have a civ that has a unique that relates to it - and Amadicia is our last chance to do so, for now. Part of my reluctance to change thing is that I do remember abilities for these LPs being pretty tricky to invent.

So, I view these abilities with greater skepticism because of this, but won't exclude them for it, but also won't change the WB until we've decided that one of these "wins."

I'm not suggesting we change the Wolfbrother's abilities, those seem pretty well calibrated for now. I'm thinking that a strength/connection to Threads shouldn't flavorfully lock a civ into T'a'r specialization as well. Mechanically that's what happens with the Wolfbrother, so if we want Threads specialization on a civ, we need to address that Wolfbrother connection if we want them to have Thread bonuses/interactions without T'a'r becoming one of their focuses. Seeing as Amadicia is the only civ left, if we can do that once, then we're good. (We don't need a "system" to separate the two, since we only need to separate them for a single civ, which can do so via a unique.)

I still view this as mostly a fringe benefit. It's only specifically helpful in games where your choice in alignment, and foreknowledge of other civs choices, is up in the air and particularly important. I imagine that in most games, players will manipulate Questioners to keep their alignment stable, and mess with other's to keep them from getting as good LB bonuses, but I imagine most pathways through the game will lead to people being pretty "set" in their alignment and LB side, regardless of what everybody else is doing (unless everybody else is going somewhere).

Agreed, it's not going to change the game much more them, and will mostly just give them some foreknowledge of other civs' Alignments. Not too compelling, and with culling below, let's go with red.

interesting! very interesting.

It does feel pretty cool to replace their WB, since they are so anti-Perrin. And this does stack with some of the other options pretty well.

A few concerns/questions:

This LP is still "linked" to the Dreamwalker, as the WB would be in the way that LPs are linked to one another in BNW, right? Make the same governors, are bought by the same policy-tree-unlock, and... possible scale in cost together? I mention this to question whether this has some unintended, problematic consequences.

It probably shouldn't be connected to the Dreamwalker anymore for cost scaling, since they would now be generated by separate point collections. (Questioning vs T'a'r points)

Creating a Governor is a very good point. This LP type probably shouldn't create a Ta'veren Governor like the Wolfbrother does. I wouldn't be inclined to give them a unique governor as well, so it should probably go with one of the base Governor types. Sage? (The Faith one)

I do think the first ability might be too ridiculously good, especially for Shadow. I think it needs to be tweaked. Consider that every DF Citizen is worth *5* light citizens. So, if you're marginally shadow, *boom*, you are now gaining, potentially, 200 extra shadow per turn in a big city. DF's are supposed to be fewer in number, in part for the aesthetics of all of it - a "city of darkfriends" is an absurd thing. But mechanically, this favors Shadow very, very heavily, which is problematic.

Way to fix that?

True, Darkfriend citizens are worth more Alignment, so we shouldn't scale both sides equally with that ability. I wanted to make him a kind of super-Questioner mechanically. Maybe he should directly set the city's citizen distribution to be Stable for Amadicia's current Alignment tier? That would have a drastic effect on foreign cities, but wouldn't swing to completely Light or Shadow. It would also be much more effective than the Questioner on Amadicia's own cities.

Also, I think using it on an opponent only seriousyl messes with their alignment if they're shooting for neutral... unless you're bombarding them with Questioners. If I'm mariginally light, you're actually doing me a favor by doing this (assuming I'm going for light). Obviously, if Amadicia is shadow, and you can Question me into marginal shadowness, you could then mess up my life big time... but that's a rather lot of work.

This is also helped by the reset-to-Stable mentioned above, since it means it will do whatever Amadicia's Alignment is doing, rather than be dependent on the other player. So if Amadicia is Light and you're playing Shadow, it will mess up your Alignment (and vice versa for Amadicia Shadow and you Light). If you're both playing the same Alignment, it may help you out a bit, or hinder a bit (depending on whether you or Amadicia are more extreme).

OK, I'd hoped to start off the culling, but I've run out of time for the night! Care to start?

Let's do it!


Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Dedicated Mission, +X (high, based on Population) Faith the first time Amadicia takes control of a foreign city, double when that city follows the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Dogmatic Domination, Amadician units receive +X combat strength against cities following Paths other than the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Spymaster's Network, Amadician units receive +X combat strength when attacking any city in which an Amadician Eyes and Ears is stationed. If a foreign Eyes and Ears is killed by Amadicia, all Amadician Eyes and Ears receive +Y% success rate for their next action.
• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units. +Y% growth in Amadician cities whenever there are no channeling units within Z hexes of the city.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital.
• Spymaster's Sabotage, In addition to normal Eyes and Ears, in the Era of Consolidation Amadicia receives a Spymaster. The Spymaster functions as a normal Eyes and Ears, but has X% chance to sabotage the production in a city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.
• Adherents to Scripture (option), Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.
• Adherents to Scripture (different), Amadicia encounters different Threads of the Pattern to other players, with newer, more lucrative response options available.
• Noble Sacrifice, when an Amadician unit dies, Amadicia receives +X Faith for each unit it controls adjacent to the hex that it died in.
• Followers' Treasure, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the same Path as the majority of Amadicia's cities, a new Craft Legendary Work is created and placed in a free slot (if one exists) in one of Amadicia's cities.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, all channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Hand of the Light (culture), replaces the Questioner, +X Culture when affecting alignment in a foreign city. After <tech> +Y Prestige when affecting alignment in a foreign city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia.
• Guardians of the Gate (spawn), replaces Era 5-8 Melee, Ranged, Mounted, or Polearm unit, +X% combat strength. Z% to spawn a Herald when killing Shadowspawn in Amadician territory. Z% chance to spawn a Questioner when killing an enemy channeling unit.
• Guardians of the Gate (counter), replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Lord Captain's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, Receives +X% combat strength against cities following the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Spymaster's Agent, replaces the Questioner. Informs Amadicia whether the city, after its Alignment has been affected by the Questioner, is more neutral or more extreme than other cities in the same civilization.
• Hand of the Light (LP), replaces the Wolfbrother. Spawned by the use of Questioners by Amadicia, instead of T'a'r points. Creates the Sage Governor type, instead of the Ta'veren. Has two abilities:
  • Put to the Question - 2 uses, must be used adjacent to a city. All of that city's citizens change to the Alignment of the net Alignment yield of that city.
  • Call an Inquisition - Amadicia encounters a new Thread immediately and this unit is expended.

UBs:

• Dome of Truth (strength), replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Spymaster's Quarters, replaces Spy2, Stationing Eyes and Ears in this city reduces Unhappiness in this city by X% and causes citizens to produce W times their usual Alignment yield. Enemy Eyes and Ears caught in this city generate +Y Faith and +Z Prestige for Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Questioner's Quarters, replaces Alignment, this city can "Produce Righteousness", which switches 1 citizen from Darkfriend to Light citizen every X production or "Instigate Corruption", which switches 1 citizen from Light citizen to Darkfriend every Y production.
• Garrison of the Light, replaces Exp4. When Amadicia chooses a side for the Last Battle, X units of a relevant type appear adjacent to this city based on their choice. (Triggers immediately upon construction if built after Amadicia has chosen a side.)
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

Many removals!

Dedicated Mission and Dogmatic Domination don't feel as strong as Foreign Indoctrination, which all push towards the same "capture enemy cities after spreading your Path to them" style of play.

I didn't feel like Spymaster's Network was as strong as the remaining options. +Y% success for their next action is a bit woolly, in that it doesn't feel like it works towards a unified flavorful mechanic, it's just a kind of generic "better spies".

Channeling Ban was the hardest to choose and the last I made red. Overall I found I just preferred the other 4 options.

Spymaster's Sabotage, I'd say we're better off going for the UEaE option to fill this kind of mechanical slot, given the contention for the UA slot.

Adherents to Scripture (different) isn't as strong as (option) because the Amadician player doesn't get any context about how their ability is a bonus.

Noble Sacrifice is a yield-dump-based UA, which quite often isn't great for the player experience. It's also a bit on the flavor questionable side, since it glorifies the Children, who were often villains in the books, even if they did have their brighter moments.

The Hundredman, I think the Hundredman's Battery achieves the same goal more effectively, since siege weapons will attack cities more often to trigger the ability.

Hand of the Light (culture) could end up with the player just machine gunning enemy cities for Culture, since they can't know how effective their Questioners are (because we can't reveal that to them), we have no way to narrowing their targets fairly. It's also yield-dump-based, which I mentioned above.

Guardians of the Gate (spawn), I think the Bannerman is a better way to have a unit that deals effectively with enemy channelers. I'm not so sure about removing this one though, the spawning units could be useful. I'm also not sure what we decided on how we assign a Path to any spawned Heralds from this UU?

Spymaster's Agent is covered above.

Questioner's Quarters is covered above.

Garrison of the Light, because I don't think a building that has this kind of "use once and done" is going to be very fun. If we tune it high enough that it will always be fun, it will be broken in some situations. But low enough that that doesn't happen and it will often not be very impactful.

And that's what I've got! We could probably remove even more on top of this?

Does Amadicia have locks? Something Children-related certainly, but that seems almost unavoidable given our choices. Would anything more specific like the Hand of the Light be a lock? Any non-Children flavor we should definitely include to give the wider Amadicia flavor context some voice?

 

[S3rgeus]

ok, sure. Totally don't remember what the Matriarch does and can't immediately figure out how to search threads - is this an ability that is problematic to allow in the late game? Ideally, it is something that fades in usefulness overtime anyways.

Matriarch, replaces the Wilder, can detect Sites of Power beginning in Era 3, and convert them into Portal Stones (consuming the unit). +X movement and ignores Zone of Control while in friendly territory.

Well that works out well - their primary mechanic is specifically early game. They continue to be useful, but that's shared with the Historian (and is less flexible than the Historian). Most Sites of Power in the PC-Seanchan lands will presumably have been converted over by then, making this part of the Matriarch's ability no longer useful. The movement and zone of control will always be relevant, but the unit overall does diminish in the late game.

turning off abilities aside (see above), turning on abilities throughout the game is not a deviation on how units already work in our game. It's not a part of BNW, but we've already established exactly that throughout for channeling units (and others?)

True, but I'd say it's more unusual, because the BNW system of unit upgrades still exists in our mod and is used for the majority of units. I wasn't saying that we shouldn't do abilities-unlocked-by-techs on these units, but that relying exclusively on such a system to era-restrict our unique channelers is more of a departure from how the game works otherwise. You make good points about the issues with very-mechanically-distinct uniques below though!

I can mostly get on board with this. No huge problems.

Do all the units upgrade automatically, or is it like normal units (you pay to upgrade them). If its the latter (which makes more sense), this does create some unintendd weirdness, where we've established, for instance, a non-combat Kin for Altara, but they've stockpiled a whole bunch of Wilders that they never convert to Kin but still upgrade their stats as the tech tree advances. Don't like that at all. Worse - building wilders before the suldam unlocks and keeping them around!

Hmmm, the civilian one is a very good point. That creates a lot of weirdness. Probably means we shouldn't do a civilian unit if it's not a full on replacement for the Wilder immediately, which is unfortunate since the Kin's flavor doesn't line up with doing that. Still, we don't have Kin civilian options yet, so we could remain without them.

Wilders from before sul'dam is a good point. I feel like the flavor from the Seanchan could allow us to automatically switch the Wilders over when the sul'dam unlock though. (Or even un-linked damane, that they need to produce a sul'dam for?)

The other channeler units don't seem to suffer from this problem so much, since they're more direct mechanical upgrades on the Wilder.

yes, but has Altara changed you?

After all this uniquing, most definitely yes!

 

[counterpoint]

I haven't actually played the previous two! I tried to, but I found their gameplay has aged very badly. I only got about 2 hours in but I couldn't deal with the clunky controls. I feel like it would have been good to know some of the story from before, but it certainly wasn't essential (I've worked the majority of it out, though I'm sure I missed loads of little nods). I've been playing on Xbox, so no spec concerns here.

oh, then dont got back and play many rpgs of actual venerable age, then... controls have never been the genre's strong suit.

I don't remember the games much, but i do remember enjoying them. Choices you make also impact the game in pretty impressive ways, so I definitely feel like I have to try to play on my pc, else it all goes for naught...

Saying whether the city is Stable or not could sort of be useful. If you know you've used Questioners on the city, you could make some guesses about what the city's distribution was like before. It's still very tangential only though, and will often be useless information.

You're right that local-city-only information is more revealing of the defending player's Alignment, but also that the civ-wide perspective is an odd piece of info to get from spying on a specific city.

What about telling you what nationality of Questioners have been used on this city? That would let you build up a kind of opinion about the city's distribution based on your opinions of the civs that have used Questioners there. It would rely on the player forming a baseline opinion to base that off from other sources aside from EaE though.

Another option is of course to not have EaE reveal any Alignment hints!

Hmmm... I'm starting to think maybe the last option is best (no Alignment hints). The nationality thing is an interesting idea, but I don't think it'd be useful info. I think if users-of-questioners knew the alignment of the people they're spamming, it would be informative, but as it is, many other civs will be spreading questioners somewhat "willy nilly," to cause general disruption in plans and such. Because of that, finding out that so-and-so has been harassing this civ doesn't tell you much, except that that civ is a harasser.

Hmmm, not really sure. It would mean they could commit really hard to a given Alignment, but as we've seen from other processes (convert to Gold, convert to Science), they're not very compelling player experience options. Seeing as we're culling below, I'm going with red.

rojo

I think I've been too narrow in my explanations of what this flavor could be. The new options/Amadicia-specific-Threads shouldn't present only Questioning-related options, they should be things tied directly to Amadicia's own flavor and the Children. That will include Questioning because it will often be relevant, but also provides ample opportunity for other kinds of choices which could generate Light as we need it.

sounds good

I don't think so, the oomph isn't that Amadicia is doing something completely different from other civs. The oomph is they have extra choices that other civs don't, so they're a lot more likely to have a Thread choice amenable to their game plan for a given Thread. It has a significant impact regardless of the flavor of either side.

yeah, that's fine.

I'm not suggesting we change the Wolfbrother's abilities, those seem pretty well calibrated for now. I'm thinking that a strength/connection to Threads shouldn't flavorfully lock a civ into T'a'r specialization as well. Mechanically that's what happens with the Wolfbrother, so if we want Threads specialization on a civ, we need to address that Wolfbrother connection if we want them to have Thread bonuses/interactions without T'a'r becoming one of their focuses. Seeing as Amadicia is the only civ left, if we can do that once, then we're good. (We don't need a "system" to separate the two, since we only need to separate them for a single civ, which can do so via a unique.)

another short answer - yeah, sounds good.

Agreed, it's not going to change the game much more them, and will mostly just give them some foreknowledge of other civs' Alignments. Not too compelling, and with culling below, let's go with red.

great. agreed

It probably shouldn't be connected to the Dreamwalker anymore for cost scaling, since they would now be generated by separate point collections. (Questioning vs T'a'r points)

yeah, I think this is fine.

Creating a Governor is a very good point. This LP type probably shouldn't create a Ta'veren Governor like the Wolfbrother does. I wouldn't be inclined to give them a unique governor as well, so it should probably go with one of the base Governor types. Sage? (The Faith one)

sage makes sense, I think.

True, Darkfriend citizens are worth more Alignment, so we shouldn't scale both sides equally with that ability. I wanted to make him a kind of super-Questioner mechanically. Maybe he should directly set the city's citizen distribution to be Stable for Amadicia's current Alignment tier? That would have a drastic effect on foreign cities, but wouldn't swing to completely Light or Shadow. It would also be much more effective than the Questioner on Amadicia's own cities.

I don't think that ability works either. If used on yourself, if *might* be really powerful, but only if somebody's been really messing with your alignment. If you're only within a couple citizens of correct - like, one or two questioners off - it's not all that great.

And, worse, while flipping someone else's alignment to yours cool be cool, it *also* tells them exactly what you're alignment is, which is most definitely not a good thing!

Why don't we let it just be a "Super Questioner," but in a different sense. How about it converts the Alignment of X citizens (or maybe X tiers worth of citizens, if that's better) in either Alignment direction (chosen when spent)? This let's Amadicia use it at home to correct off-alignment *or* to push themselves in one direction or the other. But since it's a GP, it's not likely to be unbalancingly available.

And, using it on an opponent could mess them up, but not necessarily in a way that tells them all that much about you. Since it's an LP, it's probably fair *not* to make it invisible (so it's destroyable, etc.). But sending it to somebody doesn't tell them exactly what you're up to. Are you pulling their alignment more towards yours? Pushing it away?

It seems to me that that might be the best option.

This is also helped by the reset-to-Stable mentioned above, since it means it will do whatever Amadicia's Alignment is doing, rather than be dependent on the other player. So if Amadicia is Light and you're playing Shadow, it will mess up your Alignment (and vice versa for Amadicia Shadow and you Light). If you're both playing the same Alignment, it may help you out a bit, or hinder a bit (depending on whether you or Amadicia are more extreme).

yeah, this is naughty because of the epic telegraphing...

Many removals!

Dedicated Mission and Dogmatic Domination don't feel as strong as Foreign Indoctrination, which all push towards the same "capture enemy cities after spreading your Path to them" style of play.

fine by me!

I didn't feel like Spymaster's Network was as strong as the remaining options. +Y% success for their next action is a bit woolly, in that it doesn't feel like it works towards a unified flavorful mechanic, it's just a kind of generic "better spies".

Yeah, I do like the +X combat strength aspect though - but is it too "boring"?. Im wondering if we could add this to Spymaster's Misdirection, which has survived but seems kind of weak to me.

Channeling Ban was the hardest to choose and the last I made red. Overall I found I just preferred the other 4 options.

I see what you mean, part of me wants to keep it around for a bit, sinc eit is kind of unique. Never quite got sold on the +Growth thing, but it's cool otherwise.

Spymaster's Sabotage, I'd say we're better off going for the UEaE option to fill this kind of mechanical slot, given the contention for the UA slot.

sure.

Adherents to Scripture (different) isn't as strong as (option) because the Amadician player doesn't get any context about how their ability is a bonus.

agreed.

Noble Sacrifice is a yield-dump-based UA, which quite often isn't great for the player experience. It's also a bit on the flavor questionable side, since it glorifies the Children, who were often villains in the books, even if they did have their brighter moments.

sure.

The Hundredman, I think the Hundredman's Battery achieves the same goal more effectively, since siege weapons will attack cities more often to trigger the ability.

hmmm... I like this guy, actually. I see what you mean, and truly, it's nice to find an opportunity to use a siege UU, but i'm going to magenta this one for now, because I think he is simple and interesting.

Hand of the Light (culture) could end up with the player just machine gunning enemy cities for Culture, since they can't know how effective their Questioners are (because we can't reveal that to them), we have no way to narrowing their targets fairly. It's also yield-dump-based, which I mentioned above.

fair enough.

Guardians of the Gate (spawn), I think the Bannerman is a better way to have a unit that deals effectively with enemy channelers. I'm not so sure about removing this one though, the spawning units could be useful. I'm also not sure what we decided on how we assign a Path to any spawned Heralds from this UU?

partially with you here. Kind of like this unit. I do think the surviving Guardian unit might be a better presence in the remaining group in that it *isn't* related to faith and stuff.

Garrison of the Light, because I don't think a building that has this kind of "use once and done" is going to be very fun. If we tune it high enough that it will always be fun, it will be broken in some situations. But low enough that that doesn't happen and it will often not be very impactful.

yeah.

Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units. +Y% growth in Amadician cities whenever there are no channeling units within Z hexes of the city.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital.
  
• Adherents to Scripture, Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.
• Followers' Treasure, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the same Path as the majority of Amadicia's cities, a new Craft Legendary Work is created and placed in a free slot (if one exists) in one of Amadicia's cities.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, all channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Guardians of the Gate, replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Lord Captain's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, Receives +X% combat strength against cities following the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Hand of the Light (LP), replaces the Wolfbrother. Spawned by the use of Questioners by Amadicia, instead of T'a'r points. Creates the Sage Governor type, instead of the Ta'veren. Has two abilities:
  • Put to the Question - 2 uses, must be used adjacent to a city. Converts up to X citizens to either Alignment.
  • Call an Inquisition - Amadicia encounters a new Thread immediately and this unit is expended.

UBs:

• Dome of Truth (strength), replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Spymaster's Quarters, replaces Spy2, Stationing Eyes and Ears in this city reduces Unhappiness in this city by X% and causes citizens to produce W times their usual Alignment yield. Enemy Eyes and Ears caught in this city generate +Y Faith and +Z Prestige for Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

Follower's Treasure knocked to magenta. I understand the flavor link, but it doesn't feel all that linked, to me. Not linked enough for a UA, at least.

considered cutting Lord Cpt Battery. Thoughts?

Thinking the Spymasters Quarters might not be that fun - encourages turtling with your spies.

Does Amadicia have locks? Something Children-related certainly, but that seems almost unavoidable given our choices. Would anything more specific like the Hand of the Light be a lock? Any non-Children flavor we should definitely include to give the wider Amadicia flavor context some voice?

I'd say "something with Alignment" can be our lock. Some of these abilities are kind of neat, and... we don't really have a certain use of Alignment in any other civs, right? I feel like there are only a few abilities that use it at all.

Matriarch, replaces the Wilder, can detect Sites of Power beginning in Era 3, and convert them into Portal Stones (consuming the unit). +X movement and ignores Zone of Control while in friendly territory.

Well that works out well - their primary mechanic is specifically early game. They continue to be useful, but that's shared with the Historian (and is less flexible than the Historian). Most Sites of Power in the PC-Seanchan lands will presumably have been converted over by then, making this part of the Matriarch's ability no longer useful. The movement and zone of control will always be relevant, but the unit overall does diminish in the late game.

perfect! Every turn that goes by, Portal Stones become less useful, so, great. No harm in keeping that ability around.

Hmmm, the civilian one is a very good point. That creates a lot of weirdness. Probably means we shouldn't do a civilian unit if it's not a full on replacement for the Wilder immediately, which is unfortunate since the Kin's flavor doesn't line up with doing that. Still, we don't have Kin civilian options yet, so we could remain without them.

right. Not currently going to be a problem, it seems

Wilders from before sul'dam is a good point. I feel like the flavor from the Seanchan could allow us to automatically switch the Wilders over when the sul'dam unlock though. (Or even un-linked damane, that they need to produce a sul'dam for?)

I think, possibly, the answer is to simply ban the construction of Wilders for the Seanchan for the whole game, as a part of their UA. It might put them at a disadvantage for the first half of the game, but it might be worth it (maybe we'd put in some ability that gives them something for their unused Spark?)

Otherwise, yeah, I'd say insta-conversion or something. Probably better as sul'dam then damane. Damane are buff, and thus require you to kill an opponent to get one. Spamming damane production in order to get a bunch of them when the tech happens feels lame.

 

[S3rgeus]

oh, then dont got back and play many rpgs of actual venerable age, then... controls have never been the genre's strong suit.

I don't remember the games much, but i do remember enjoying them. Choices you make also impact the game in pretty impressive ways, so I definitely feel like I have to try to play on my pc, else it all goes for naught...

I found the older Witcher games worse than most - I was ok with the likes of Baldur's Gate 2 and KOTOR2, which were older! (And all the old FFs and the like, though that's a different kind of RPG.)

The choice impact stuff sticks around! They did a good job with that. And quite often they had very nice follow ons that were relatively inconsequential mechanically, but it made it feel like you really had an impact on the world.

Hmmm... I'm starting to think maybe the last option is best (no Alignment hints). The nationality thing is an interesting idea, but I don't think it'd be useful info. I think if users-of-questioners knew the alignment of the people they're spamming, it would be informative, but as it is, many other civs will be spreading questioners somewhat "willy nilly," to cause general disruption in plans and such. Because of that, finding out that so-and-so has been harassing this civ doesn't tell you much, except that that civ is a harasser.

Agreed, let's steer clear of any Alignment hints from EaE then!

I don't think that ability works either. If used on yourself, if *might* be really powerful, but only if somebody's been really messing with your alignment. If you're only within a couple citizens of correct - like, one or two questioners off - it's not all that great.

And, worse, while flipping someone else's alignment to yours cool be cool, it *also* tells them exactly what you're alignment is, which is most definitely not a good thing!

Why don't we let it just be a "Super Questioner," but in a different sense. How about it converts the Alignment of X citizens (or maybe X tiers worth of citizens, if that's better) in either Alignment direction (chosen when spent)? This let's Amadicia use it at home to correct off-alignment *or* to push themselves in one direction or the other. But since it's a GP, it's not likely to be unbalancingly available.

And, using it on an opponent could mess them up, but not necessarily in a way that tells them all that much about you. Since it's an LP, it's probably fair *not* to make it invisible (so it's destroyable, etc.). But sending it to somebody doesn't tell them exactly what you're up to. Are you pulling their alignment more towards yours? Pushing it away?

It seems to me that that might be the best option.

Very true, this exposes a lot less about the Amadician player! I've made a small tweak to make it more clear that the Amaidician player chooses when using the ability.

Yeah, I do like the +X combat strength aspect though - but is it too "boring"?. Im wondering if we could add this to Spymaster's Misdirection, which has survived but seems kind of weak to me.

Yeah, that seems like a good addition.

I see what you mean, part of me wants to keep it around for a bit, sinc eit is kind of unique. Never quite got sold on the +Growth thing, but it's cool otherwise.

It is quite unique, but I don't see us picking it over the other 3 remaining options.

hmmm... I like this guy, actually. I see what you mean, and truly, it's nice to find an opportunity to use a siege UU, but i'm going to magenta this one for now, because I think he is simple and interesting.

Would we pick this one over the siege UU though? I agree that this UU is simple and interesting, but the siege UU seems to accomplish the same thing more effectively. And as you've mentioned, UU siege units aren't in significant supply.

partially with you here. Kind of like this unit. I do think the surviving Guardian unit might be a better presence in the remaining group in that it *isn't* related to faith and stuff.

True! It's also non-Children flavor, right? So that means the remaining UU slots very well into most sets.

Follower's Treasure knocked to magenta. I understand the flavor link, but it doesn't feel all that linked, to me. Not linked enough for a UA, at least.

Totally agreed. It's nice to have a Culture option, but this as Amadicia's UA would feel like a wasted opportunity. Red.

considered cutting Lord Cpt Battery. Thoughts?

I also considered cutting this one a few times as well. I sort of kept it because it fuels the "Domination by spreading your Path" without using up the UA slot. But then again, we'd probably always use the Hundredman's Battery over this, right? Red?

Thinking the Spymasters Quarters might not be that fun - encourages turtling with your spies.

Agreed

I'd say "something with Alignment" can be our lock. Some of these abilities are kind of neat, and... we don't really have a certain use of Alignment in any other civs, right? I feel like there are only a few abilities that use it at all.

Yep, something Alignment sounds good.



Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units. +Y% growth in Amadician cities whenever there are no channeling units within Z hexes of the city.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital. Amadician units receive +X% combat strength when attacking cities that have an Amadician Eyes and Ears stationed in them.
• Adherents to Scripture, Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.
• Followers' Treasure, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the same Path as the majority of Amadicia's cities, a new Craft Legendary Work is created and placed in a free slot (if one exists) in one of Amadicia's cities.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, all channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Guardians of the Gate, replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Lord Captain's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, Receives +X% combat strength against cities following the majority Path of Amadicia.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Hand of the Light (LP), replaces the Wolfbrother. Spawned by the use of Questioners by Amadicia, instead of T'a'r points. Creates the Sage Governor type, instead of the Ta'veren. Has two abilities:
  • Put to the Question - 2 uses, must be used adjacent to a city. Converts up to X citizens to the Alignment of the Amadician player's choice.
  • Call an Inquisition - Amadicia encounters a new Thread immediately and this unit is expended.

UBs:

• Dome of Truth (strength), replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

Sets?

UA: Foreign Indoctrination
UU: Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (path)
UB: Dome of Truth (pressure)

This is a very Path and Domination focused approach to their uniques. The UUs and UB (when it comes into play) all feed very effectively into the UA and make Amadicia very conquest-y. The propensity towards Path spreading could be used to enable other victory types, but the Hundredman's Battery and UA put the focus on Domination. The Hand of the Light (path) provides a mechanism for committing to an Alignment while still focusing on your Path.

UA: Spymaster's Misdirection
UU: Guardians of the Gate
UU: Bannerman
UB: Hundredman's Garrison

A bit more measured, but still combat focused. The Garrison rewards investment in Alignment as you head towards the mid/late game.

UA: Adherents to Scripture
UU: Hundredman OR Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP)
UEaE: Spymaster OR UI: Disputed Border Encampment

A third set! Because I couldn't make up my mind! The UA and Hand of the Light work together specifically as discussed before. I've found I did actually put the Hundredman in as an OR in this set, because it felt very connected to the "stereotypical" Children flavor. Maybe that's the Hundredman's role! The last slot is the "mess with your enemies" slot.

Did we ever resolve the transparency problem with the Spymaster? How the setback means the other civ knows Amadicia was the cause, since only Amadicia can do that?

I think, possibly, the answer is to simply ban the construction of Wilders for the Seanchan for the whole game, as a part of their UA. It might put them at a disadvantage for the first half of the game, but it might be worth it (maybe we'd put in some ability that gives them something for their unused Spark?)

Otherwise, yeah, I'd say insta-conversion or something. Probably better as sul'dam then damane. Damane are buff, and thus require you to kill an opponent to get one. Spamming damane production in order to get a bunch of them when the tech happens feels lame.

All very good points. Yeah, disallowing them from producing Wilders or converting them to Sul'dam immediately, we'll choose one of these options at a later date!

 

[counterpoint]

EDIT - fixed problematic quotes.

Agreed, let's steer clear of any Alignment hints from EaE then!

summary revised.

Very true, this exposes a lot less about the Amadician player! I've made a small tweak to make it more clear that the Amaidician player chooses when using the ability.

good call

It is quite unique, but I don't see us picking it over the other 3 remaining options.

Yeah, *options* though. I'm fine with 4 quite distinct UA's surviving, even if one isn't likely to win. I vote to keep (but likely ignore).

Would we pick this one over the siege UU though? I agree that this UU is simple and interesting, but the siege UU seems to accomplish the same thing more effectively. And as you've mentioned, UU siege units aren't in significant supply.

no, I think i'd prefer the siege unit. But as you mention below, it is somewhat "stereotypical," which makes it handy to keep around, IMO

True! It's also non-Children flavor, right? So that means the remaining UU slots very well into most sets.

right.

Totally agreed. It's nice to have a Culture option, but this as Amadicia's UA would feel like a wasted opportunity. Red.

gone

I also considered cutting this one a few times as well. I sort of kept it because it fuels the "Domination by spreading your Path" without using up the UA slot. But then again, we'd probably always use the Hundredman's Battery over this, right? Red?

Yeah, I think so. gone

Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units. +Y% growth in Amadician cities whenever there are no channeling units within Z hexes of the city.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital. Amadician units receive +X% combat strength when attacking cities that have an Amadician Eyes and Ears stationed in them.
• Adherents to Scripture, Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, all channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Guardians of the Gate, replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Hand of the Light (LP), replaces the Wolfbrother. Spawned by the use of Questioners by Amadicia, instead of T'a'r points. Creates the Sage Governor type, instead of the Ta'veren. Has two abilities:
  • Put to the Question - 2 uses, must be used adjacent to a city. Converts up to X citizens to the Alignment of the Amadician player's choice.
  • Call an Inquisition - Amadicia encounters a new Thread immediately and this unit is expended.

UBs:

• Dome of Truth (strength), replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

Sets?

UA: Foreign Indoctrination
UU: Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (path)
UB: Dome of Truth (pressure)

This is a very Path and Domination focused approach to their uniques. The UUs and UB (when it comes into play) all feed very effectively into the UA and make Amadicia very conquest-y. The propensity towards Path spreading could be used to enable other victory types, but the Hundredman's Battery and UA put the focus on Domination. The Hand of the Light (path) provides a mechanism for committing to an Alignment while still focusing on your Path.

I'm torn on this set. I like the focus of it, but I do worry that it's a little *too* all in on the spread-your-path-easily thing. I feel like it doesn't perhaps leave enough flexiblity in approach. It's Path or nothing, here.

I like the rather direct connection between the UA and the Battery, but the others might be a bit overkill, IMO. I think I'd rather see the other slots have something to do with Alignment (in a more direct way - the HotL (path) unit is really an alignment unit that's "about" paths) and perhaps even Espionage. So, something like:

UA: Foreign Indoctrination
UU: Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP) OR Bannerman
UB: Dome of Truth (pressure) or Hand of the Light (LP)

I decided to keep the DoT, because of its culture relevance. That said, I'm not sold on it. I wanted a spy-related ability, but realized that we destroyed all of them that weren't UAs or the UEaE (which I don't know about including...) . Any chance of renaming a building or something so it's Spy related?

in any case, this allows for some more directed Alignment manipulation.

UA: Spymaster's Misdirection
UU: Guardians of the Gate
UU: Bannerman
UB: Hundredman's Garrison

A bit more measured, but still combat focused. The Garrison rewards investment in Alignment as you head towards the mid/late game.

I think this one might miss out by not having *any* Path-related stuff. I think maybe the GotG and Bannerman might not belong in the same set, given that they are both "good miliatry units," but don't give us any of our "special sauce" with Amadicia. that said, the option of an all-military approach might be fine. I'd prefer something like this:

UA: Spymaster's Misdirection
UU: Guardians of the Gate OR Hundredman's Battery
UU: Bannerman OR Hundredman's Battery
UB: Hundredman's Garrison

This way, we can get a cool UU in there with some path relevance.

UA: Adherents to Scripture
UU: Hundredman OR Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP)
UEaE: Spymaster OR UI: Disputed Border Encampment

A third set! Because I couldn't make up my mind! The UA and Hand of the Light work together specifically as discussed before. I've found I did actually put the Hundredman in as an OR in this set, because it felt very connected to the "stereotypical" Children flavor. Maybe that's the Hundredman's role! The last slot is the "mess with your enemies" slot.

Yeah, mostly like this set, actually. I'm not in love with either of the last two abilities. Kind of weird, I guess. I'm fine keeping them there, but I'd also appreciate a tamer option at the end, especially since the LP UU is already kind of "weird" (as is the UA!):

UA: Adherents to Scripture
UU: Hundredman OR Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP)
UEaE: Spymaster OR UI: Disputed Border Encampment OR Bannerman OR Dome of Truth (Pressure)

4 options is too much, I know... not sure what to do. I feel like it's "either do one of the first two weird ones, or one of the "normal" UUs or a culture-related UB. Not sure

I suppose we're ok with the general lack of "obvious" culture abilities?

Did we ever resolve the transparency problem with the Spymaster? How the setback means the other civ knows Amadicia was the cause, since only Amadicia can do that?

I dunno, if we view that as a big problem, I suppose it's probably unfixable. I think it might not be too bad, though, since all it really tells you is that "Amadicia wants to ruin your plans." That doesn't tell you that much about their strategy, since presumably Amy will do it to any one and everyone. I guess it might feel like a blue shell, and tell you that "Amadicia thinks your in the lead." Can you think of a way to put some more depth into it?

All very good points. Yeah, disallowing them from producing Wilders or converting them to Sul'dam immediately, we'll choose one of these options at a later date!

kewl

 

[S3rgeus]

I've received my CiVI Steam key! I have it preloaded already! Can't wait! Can't wait!

It seems like the files are all packaged up until the game gets "installed" on release day, so I can't even poke around to get an impression of what mods might look like for it until then! (We probably won't get the mod tools on launch day either.)

summary revised.

Awesome, thanks!

Yeah, *options* though. I'm fine with 4 quite distinct UA's surviving, even if one isn't likely to win. I vote to keep (but likely ignore).

Ok, let's keep it for now!

Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units. +Y% growth in Amadician cities whenever there are no channeling units within Z hexes of the city.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital. Amadician units receive +X% combat strength when attacking cities that have an Amadician Eyes and Ears stationed in them.
• Adherents to Scripture, Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, all channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Guardians of the Gate, replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Hand of the Light (LP), replaces the Wolfbrother. Spawned by the use of Questioners by Amadicia, instead of T'a'r points. Creates the Sage Governor type, instead of the Ta'veren. Has two abilities:
  • Put to the Question - 2 uses, must be used adjacent to a city. Converts up to X citizens to the Alignment of the Amadician player's choice.
  • Call an Inquisition - Amadicia encounters a new Thread immediately and this unit is expended.

UBs:

• Dome of Truth (strength), replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

I'm torn on this set. I like the focus of it, but I do worry that it's a little *too* all in on the spread-your-path-easily thing. I feel like it doesn't perhaps leave enough flexiblity in approach. It's Path or nothing, here.

I like the rather direct connection between the UA and the Battery, but the others might be a bit overkill, IMO. I think I'd rather see the other slots have something to do with Alignment (in a more direct way - the HotL (path) unit is really an alignment unit that's "about" paths) and perhaps even Espionage. So, something like:

UA: Foreign Indoctrination
UU: Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP) OR Bannerman
UB: Dome of Truth (pressure) or Hand of the Light (LP)

I decided to keep the DoT, because of its culture relevance. That said, I'm not sold on it. I wanted a spy-related ability, but realized that we destroyed all of them that weren't UAs or the UEaE (which I don't know about including...) . Any chance of renaming a building or something so it's Spy related?

in any case, this allows for some more directed Alignment manipulation.

I think it's ok to go fairly heavy on the Path stuff, because the Path itself can be customized to work towards other game objectives. Most victory types are compatible with it.

I like your changes overall! I do find that this set is less about Alignment than the one I originally suggested though, if the intention was to make it more so. The Hand of the Light (path) will always be available and always boosting Amadicia's Alignment, so it will be guaranteed to have a big effect if they want it to. The Hand of the Light (LP) doesn't have nearly as big an influence on Amadicia's overall play style. It pulls them into the Questioner mechanics for the LP bonus, but that requires the player follow that mechanic "one hop along" - whereas the (path) one is an immediate bonus for using lots of Questioners.



Your post gets very confusing from here on, because I think one of your quote tags ended up being unclosed. So when I quoted it it cut out most of the below! I think I've restored your parts, but let me know if I've missed anything.

I think this one might miss out by not having *any* Path-related stuff. I think maybe the GotG and Bannerman might not belong in the same set, given that they are both "good miliatry units," but don't give us any of our "special sauce" with Amadicia. that said, the option of an all-military approach might be fine. I'd prefer something like this:

UA: Spymaster's Misdirection
UU: Guardians of the Gate OR Hundredman's Battery
UU: Bannerman OR Hundredman's Battery
UB: Hundredman's Garrison

This way, we can get a cool UU in there with some path relevance.

Also looks good!

Yeah, mostly like this set, actually. I'm not in love with either of the last two abilities. Kind of weird, I guess. I'm fine keeping them there, but I'd also appreciate a tamer option at the end, especially since the LP UU is already kind of "weird" (as is the UA!):

UA: Adherents to Scripture
UU: Hundredman OR Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP)
UEaE: Spymaster OR UI: Disputed Border Encampment OR Bannerman OR Dome of Truth (Pressure)

4 options is too much, I know... not sure what to do. I feel like it's "either do one of the first two weird ones, or one of the "normal" UUs or a culture-related UB. Not sure

I suppose we're ok with the general lack of "obvious" culture abilities?

Yeah, I think it's fine that we lack direct Culture abilities. Amadicia can focus on Culture by making their Path Culture-y. That feels more like how they should approach that as well.

For reducing the last one, we could drop it down to the Disputed Border Encampment and the Dome of Truth? I'm not hugely pushed on the Spymaster and he has some difficulties, discussed more below. I'd say we could drop the Bannerman there because I don't feel like Amadicia should be represented with all of their non-UA uniques being UUs. They don't feel as combat-y as the Aiel or some other civs, who we would be more likely to do that for.


Following on from all of the above, we have 3 sets! Which one are we going to drop? Or can we merge two of them in some way? From a gut reaction point of view, I'd be inclined to drop set 2 (Spymaster's Misdirection UA) and keep the other 2? What do you think?

I dunno, if we view that as a big problem, I suppose it's probably unfixable. I think it might not be too bad, though, since all it really tells you is that "Amadicia wants to ruin your plans." That doesn't tell you that much about their strategy, since presumably Amy will do it to any one and everyone. I guess it might feel like a blue shell, and tell you that "Amadicia thinks your in the lead." Can you think of a way to put some more depth into it?

I think the bigger difficulty is it telegraphing that Amadicia is actively working against you right now in a way that's more meta-game-y. When you find an enemy spy trying to steal one of your techs and identify the civ, that makes sense within the context of the game. But the Spymaster can be 100% effective stealthy, but the human can always use their meta knowledge of the structure of civ to say "That must have been Amadicia".

The difficulty here is that any unique mechanic that affects the production of a foreign city will be meta-attributable to Amadicia unless it looks like something else that can already happen.

Can we have it "imitate" the "wonder has been built in a foreign land" behavior instead of a production setback? Make the ability specifically about wonders?

Alternatively, can we make it effective at home for Amadicia? Shift production from one city to another or something like that?

It's departed a bit from the flavor with either of those approaches though.

 

[counterpoint]

I've received my CiVI Steam key! I have it preloaded already! Can't wait! Can't wait!

It seems like the files are all packaged up until the game gets "installed" on release day, so I can't even poke around to get an impression of what mods might look like for it until then! (We probably won't get the mod tools on launch day either.)

Noice! I preordered mine in 20th-century mode, so I can't install until it ships...

Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units. +Y% growth in Amadician cities whenever there are no channeling units within Z hexes of the city.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital. Amadician units receive +X% combat strength when attacking cities that have an Amadician Eyes and Ears stationed in them.
• Adherents to Scripture, Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, all channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Guardians of the Gate, replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Hand of the Light (LP), replaces the Wolfbrother. Spawned by the use of Questioners by Amadicia, instead of T'a'r points. Creates the Sage Governor type, instead of the Ta'veren. Has two abilities:
  • Put to the Question - 2 uses, must be used adjacent to a city. Converts up to X citizens to the Alignment of the Amadician player's choice.
  • Call an Inquisition - Amadicia encounters a new Thread immediately and this unit is expended.

UBs:

• Dome of Truth (strength), replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.
• Spymaster's Den, replaces Spy2, Whenever an Amadician Eyes and Ears successfully steals a technology, this city's Production is increased by X% for that turn (high, like 300%). Whenever an Amadician Eyes and Ears successfully kills an oppenent's Eyes and Ears, this city generates Y Faith (moderately high). Whenever an Amadician Eyes and Ears is killed in action, this city's Alignment moves towards Stable as if one Questioner were used. Whenever an Amadician Eyes and Ears is promoted, this city generates Z Prestige.

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

I think it's ok to go fairly heavy on the Path stuff, because the Path itself can be customized to work towards other game objectives. Most victory types are compatible with it.

I like your changes overall! I do find that this set is less about Alignment than the one I originally suggested though, if the intention was to make it more so. The Hand of the Light (path) will always be available and always boosting Amadicia's Alignment, so it will be guaranteed to have a big effect if they want it to. The Hand of the Light (LP) doesn't have nearly as big an influence on Amadicia's overall play style. It pulls them into the Questioner mechanics for the LP bonus, but that requires the player follow that mechanic "one hop along" - whereas the (path) one is an immediate bonus for using lots of Questioners.

Ah, right. Well, the difference is that, with the new version, it provides them a kind of *bonus* for Alignment. Using only the (path) unit, it doesn't provide better Alignment, merely a reward for pursuing that playstyle. I can see why in some situations that could be perceived as better. Would you want to see this set have the (path) variant as an "OR"?

Your post gets very confusing from here on, because I think one of your quote tags ended up being unclosed. So when I quoted it it cut out most of the below! I think I've restored your parts, but let me know if I've missed anything.

oh, man. sorry. I've fixed it above. This new forum format made it harder for me to spot the mistake. My bad

For reducing the last one, we could drop it down to the Disputed Border Encampment and the Dome of Truth? I'm not hugely pushed on the Spymaster and he has some difficulties, discussed more below. I'd say we could drop the Bannerman there because I don't feel like Amadicia should be represented with all of their non-UA uniques being UUs. They don't feel as combat-y as the Aiel or some other civs, who we would be more likely to do that for.

K, I can get behind that.

UA: Adherents to Scripture
UU: Hundredman OR Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP)
UI: Disputed Border Encampment OR UB: Dome of Truth (Pressure)

Following on from all of the above, we have 3 sets! Which one are we going to drop? Or can we merge two of them in some way? From a gut reaction point of view, I'd be inclined to drop set 2 (Spymaster's Misdirection UA) and keep the other 2? What do you think?

I think we can maybe just keep all three. Each has a very, very different UA, and I think, in general, that's how we've been framing the different Set options. I do feel like the Spymaster UA is the least likely of the UA options, which makes this set probably the least likely as well, but I don't mind it, and don't think we have to make it go away.

I think the bigger difficulty is it telegraphing that Amadicia is actively working against you right now in a way that's more meta-game-y. When you find an enemy spy trying to steal one of your techs and identify the civ, that makes sense within the context of the game. But the Spymaster can be 100% effective stealthy, but the human can always use their meta knowledge of the structure of civ to say "That must have been Amadicia".

The difficulty here is that any unique mechanic that affects the production of a foreign city will be meta-attributable to Amadicia unless it looks like something else that can already happen.

Yeah, I see what you mean about all of this. It definitely makes this seem less and less enticing, the more we dig into it. I was excited about this ability when I invented it, but now it feels like it might just mess stuff up.

Can we have it "imitate" the "wonder has been built in a foreign land" behavior instead of a production setback? Make the ability specifically about wonders?

You mean like while the Spymaster is present, you get the benefits of the wonders in that city? That's kind of cool mechanically, but really really strange, perhaps way too good, and also very, very flavor-peculiar.

Alternatively, can we make it effective at home for Amadicia? Shift production from one city to another or something like that?

It's departed a bit from the flavor with either of those approaches though.

I'm not sure I quite follow this last suggestion. You mean the spymaster would be stationed in Amadician cities? Kind of less fun, maybe.

What if we keep it's function similar in spirit, but focus on benefits for Amadicia, rather than drawbacks and sabotage. Like, something along the lines of: whenever the city builds something, X goes to Amadicia. Like, maybe a dump of production, or gold, or faith, or whatever. Or maybe it varies based on what is built. Its kind of random, and possibly tall favoring, but... I don't know, looking for a way to give the sense of the spymaster, without causing these weird problems with the other civ.

If we can't make something like that work, I think maybe we should scrap it. Although, I'm probably ok with keeping it around, since it's so unique, but I probably wouldn't put it in any sets, as is.

That said, I do feel like the Spymaster flavor deserves to be used as a non-UA in a way that feels viable. We lost the UBs that were spymasters... Can we assemble one to fill this niche? I'd feel better if we had a spymaster thing in one of our sets. I take a stab at one above.

Too epic? Can we pare it down a bit? Can we see something like this fitting in a set?

 

[S3rgeus]

EDIT: Forgot to mention earlier, I won't be home tomorrow evening, so I'll be back on Thursday!

Noice! I preordered mine in 20th-century mode, so I can't install until it ships...

Hopefully they'll put it in the mail soon enough that it gets to you on Friday!

Ah, right. Well, the difference is that, with the new version, it provides them a kind of *bonus* for Alignment. Using only the (path) unit, it doesn't provide better Alignment, merely a reward for pursuing that playstyle. I can see why in some situations that could be perceived as better. Would you want to see this set have the (path) variant as an "OR"?

It's not that I think it's better in general, but that as a single unique it pushes Alignment harder than the LP one does, because it's more available. I'm happy with it as an OR, so like so:

UA: Foreign Indoctrination
UU: Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP) OR Hand of the Light (path)
UB: Dome of Truth (pressure) or Hand of the Light (LP)

I removed Bannerman as an OR from slot 3 - is that the right place to do that? I figured we wouldn't want 3 ORs for the same unit by adding it to slot 1. (They're not exactly the same, but we'd never choose more than one of them.) And I didn't want to go into triple-UU style again on slot 4.

oh, man. sorry. I've fixed it above. This new forum format made it harder for me to spot the mistake. My bad

No worries! Caught me off guard was all!

K, I can get behind that.

UA: Adherents to Scripture
UU: Hundredman OR Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP)
UI: Disputed Border Encampment OR UB: Dome of Truth (Pressure)

Looks good!

I think we can maybe just keep all three. Each has a very, very different UA, and I think, in general, that's how we've been framing the different Set options. I do feel like the Spymaster UA is the least likely of the UA options, which makes this set probably the least likely as well, but I don't mind it, and don't think we have to make it go away.

Argh! But this is the last civ and we've gotten it down to 2 on all of the other ones!

I agree on the Spymaster UA. And actually looking at the non-UA options in that set, it doesn't have nearly as much of the "centerpiece" flavor that calls out Amadicia. These factors combined make me think we should drop that set and keep the other 2.

That would leave us with (potentially some changes remaining on other quote blocks on this post:

UA: Foreign Indoctrination
UU: Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP) OR Hand of the Light (path)
UB: Dome of Truth (pressure) or Hand of the Light (LP)

UA: Adherents to Scripture
UU: Hundredman OR Hundredman's Battery
UU: Hand of the Light (LP)
UI: Disputed Border Encampment OR UB: Dome of Truth (Pressure)

Seems to represent them well? Should we get the Guardian of the Gate in there somewhere?

Yeah, I see what you mean about all of this. It definitely makes this seem less and less enticing, the more we dig into it. I was excited about this ability when I invented it, but now it feels like it might just mess stuff up.

Maybe, just one quote block below makes me think we might be able to tweak it!

You mean like while the Spymaster is present, you get the benefits of the wonders in that city? That's kind of cool mechanically, but really really strange, perhaps way too good, and also very, very flavor-peculiar.

I meant it pops up the "wonder has been built in a foreign land" and stops wonder production for a foreign player who has the Amadician spymaster in their city - that's his effect. To make the player think the wonder has been built abroad, when actually they've just been sabotaged. They wouldn't be able to tell that apart from it happening normally, which gets rid of the meta aspect of it. But we'd need to lock that player out of building that wonder, even though no one else has constructed it yet (otherwise they could still meta it) and the ability would become all about wonders.

I'm not sure I quite follow this last suggestion. You mean the spymaster would be stationed in Amadician cities? Kind of less fun, maybe.

Yeah, he would be stationed in Amadician cities. I agree that's less fun.

What if we keep it's function similar in spirit, but focus on benefits for Amadicia, rather than drawbacks and sabotage. Like, something along the lines of: whenever the city builds something, X goes to Amadicia. Like, maybe a dump of production, or gold, or faith, or whatever. Or maybe it varies based on what is built. Its kind of random, and possibly tall favoring, but... I don't know, looking for a way to give the sense of the spymaster, without causing these weird problems with the other civ.

Siphoning off production sounds like something that could work! "Every time the city the Spymaster is stationed in finishes producing something, an Amadician city of Amadicia's choice gains +X Production, where X is Y% of the cost of the item produced in the foreign city."? That works with the flavor and doesn't tip off the opponent about what it does.

If we can't make something like that work, I think maybe we should scrap it. Although, I'm probably ok with keeping it around, since it's so unique, but I probably wouldn't put it in any sets, as is.

I wouldn't be inclined to keep it around if we're not going to use it. I agree that it's unique, but we should find an effective way to use that uniqueness, rather than increase the number of factors we need to consider when deciding on final uniques for the civs without cause.

That said, I do feel like the Spymaster flavor deserves to be used as a non-UA in a way that feels viable. We lost the UBs that were spymasters... Can we assemble one to fill this niche? I'd feel better if we had a spymaster thing in one of our sets. I take a stab at one above.

Too epic? Can we pare it down a bit? Can we see something like this fitting in a set?

I think this one is a bit too epic - it does a whole bunch of very different things. And it suffers from the same issue we had with some of the older uniques and spying, in that it rewards you for everything to do with Espionage, rather than playing a specific way.

The fact that there are Espionage buildings should seriously help us out here though! I've suggested two new options as well.

Recap!

Amadicia (Era 5-9, Wide, Dom/Cul/LB)

UAs:

• Channeling Ban, Amadicia cannot produce Female1 units. Any channeling unit killed by Amadicia within Amadician territory spawns an Amadician Questioner. +X% combat strength against channeling units. +Y% growth in Amadician cities whenever there are no channeling units within Z hexes of the city.
• Foreign Indoctrination, when Amadicia captures a city that follows the majority Path in Amadicia, none of the buildings in the city are destroyed and only X% (like 50) of the usual Population is lost. Captured cities stay in resistance for Y fewer turns.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, when an Amadician Eyes and Ears would be killed spying on an enemy civilization, instead Amadicia gains +X Science and that Eyes and Ears is returned to the Amadician capital. Amadician units receive +X% combat strength when attacking cities that have an Amadician Eyes and Ears stationed in them.
• Adherents to Scripture, Threads encountered by Amadicia have additional response options to do with putting some participants in that Thread to the Question, providing different outcomes from the existing choices.

UUs:

• Hundredman, replaces Era 5-9 Melee unit, +X% combat strength. Each attack against cities generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city. This Pressure increases to +Z if the Hundredman captures the city.
• Bannerman, replaces anti-channeler, all channeling units within two hexes of the Bannerman suffer -X% to their ranged combat strength.
• Guardians of the Gate, replaces Era 5-8 Ranged, when attacked with a melee attack while within Amadician territory or the territory of a civilization bordering Amadicia, the Guardians make a ranged attack on the attacking unit before the melee attack takes place.
• Hundredman's Battery, replaces era 5-8 siege unit, +X% defense against Ranged attacks. When attacking enemy cities, generates +Y Path pressure of the majority Path of Amadicia in that city.
• Hand of the Light (path), replaces the Questioner. Also spreads the Path of the city it was spawned in, with a strength of X (like 500), when it influences the Alignment of a city.
• Hand of the Light (LP), replaces the Wolfbrother. Spawned by the use of Questioners by Amadicia, instead of T'a'r points. Creates the Sage Governor type, instead of the Ta'veren. Has two abilities:
  • Put to the Question - 2 uses, must be used adjacent to a city. Converts up to X citizens to the Alignment of the Amadician player's choice.
  • Call an Inquisition - Amadicia encounters a new Thread immediately and this unit is expended.

UBs:

• Dome of Truth (strength), replaces Defense 3, +X% city defense against channelers. +Y% ranged combat strength against Shadowspawn and channelers.
• Hundredman's Garrison, replaces EXP3, +X additional Experience for units produced in this City for every Alignment Tier away from neutral Amadicia occupies.
• Dome of Truth (pressure), replaces Culture4, +X Faith. This building's theming bonus exerts Path pressure on all other cities on the same continent as this city.
• Spymaster's Den, replaces Spy2, Whenever an Amadician Eyes and Ears successfully steals a technology, this city's Production is increased by X% for that turn (high, like 300%). Whenever an Amadician Eyes and Ears successfully kills an oppenent's Eyes and Ears, this city generates Y Faith (moderately high). Whenever an Amadician Eyes and Ears is killed in action, this city's Alignment moves towards Stable as if one Questioner were used. Whenever an Amadician Eyes and Ears is promoted, this city generates Z Prestige.
• Spymaster's Misdirection, replaces Spy2, this city receives the benefits from all Follower Customs from Paths that have any followers in this city, instead of just the majority.
• Spymaster's Backroom, replaces Spy2, trade routes established in or trading to this city secretly provide Amadicia with +X Culture and +Y Science per turn.
• Spymaster's Den, replaces Spy1, whenever a technology is stolen from this city, Amadicia receives a free technology that the stealing civ has but Amadicia doesn't (if there are any).

UIs:

• Disputed Border Encampment, can only be built on Luxury resources that are adjacent to an Amadician hex and are in another civilization's territory. Amadicia gains access to the Luxury as though it had improved it. Pillaging or destroying the Encampment is an act of war against Amadicia.

UEaEs:

• Spymaster (sabotage), One Amadician Eyes and Ears becomes the Spymaster. When stationed in a city of a major civilization, the Spymaster has X% chance to sabotage the production of that city (modified by the Spymaster's level as well as Eyes and Ears and buildings present in that city) every Y turns. Successfully sabotaging production lowers accumulated production by W and provides +Z production (high) in the Amadician capital. If the Spymaster is killed, he is reborn at level one.

Spymaster's Misdirection takes the Spymaster flavor and uses it for Path stuff.

In case we have enough Path stuff, Spymaster's Backroom provides a very different kind of bonus, using the flavor of "siphoning off secrets" from traders in the city. By "secretly" that means it doesn't show up in the list of yields when a foreign player is choosing where to send a trade route (so it won't influence their decision). It's also a Culture ability, which could be useful since it fits!

Spymaster's Den relates more specifically to the Espionage mechanics. I went with Spy1 instead of Spy2 to give it more time to be activated. It may be that this is too dependent on enemies though, that people just won't spy on Amadicia. It's not a visible bonus to the foreign players though - they can't see Amadicia gain the tech.